The Violent Take it By Force

Bible Highlighter · Feb 11, 2019

We can also be a murderer without even murdering, too. 1 John 3:15 says that if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in you. So we have to love all. Everyone. Especially our enemies or those who seek to harm us in any way whether it be by their bad words towards us or whether it be by their violent actions towards us. We have to love in return. It's not easy, but with the power of Jesus, nothing is impossible.

eleos1954 · Feb 11, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Matthew 11:12

ESV - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.

NASB - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

NIV - From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

KJV - And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Greek - ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν.

A similar expression can be found in Luke 16:16 but it's not clear that Luke's usage is the same as Matthew's. They could mean entirely different things.

What did Jesus mean?

Since John the Baptist .. the kingdom of God isn’t going to be established without violent struggles, or without violent fights taking place.

2tim_215 · Feb 11, 2019

Since in Matthew 11:12 John the Baptist is referenced, what was John's preaching to the Jews at the time? :The kingdom of God is at hand" This is something that I believe the Pharisees and many of the "well-off" Jews didn't like hearing and didn't want Jesus coming to this earth and ruining their ravish lifestyles. I suppose the same can be said for some Christians today. As for the rest of the verse, it can certainly be said that that Gods kingdom has suffered much violence throughout the years and still does. As for the "violent who takes it by force", the word violent in the Greek mean "energetic" and the word "force" means to "seize" so in other words mean that the energetic Christian or believer (in this case the Jew) energetically seize (or go after) the kingdom of God. This is one of the more difficult verses I've found in scripture.

Hazelelponi · Feb 11, 2019

Daniel Martinovich · Feb 11, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Matthew 11:12

ESV - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.

NASB - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

NIV - From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

KJV - And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Greek - ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν.

A similar expression can be found in Luke 16:16 but it's not clear that Luke's usage is the same as Matthew's. They could mean entirely different things.

What did Jesus mean?

Believe it or not. It's actually a parable, or a play on words, and a prophecy.
Matthew 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say to the multitudes concerning John, What went you out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went you out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 But what went you out for to see? A prophet? yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before your face, which shall prepare your way before you. 11 Truly I say to you, Among them that are born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you will receive it, this is Elias (Elijah), which was for to come. 15 He that has ears to hear, let him hear.

John the Baptist represents or personifies the Law and the prophets. (He is more than a prophet.) To put this in another way. The Mosaic Law and the Prophets whom John symbolizes preceded and prepared the way for the Messiah, the Lord Jesus, Jehovah the Word. (10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before your face, which shall prepare your way before you.) Jesus extrapolates this by saying that the law and the prophets gave birth to ancient Israel. (Among them that are born of women) He proceeds to state that there has not been a nation on earth like ancient Israel in the sense of the Government of God's influence over a people. (there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist Yet he states that even the least of nations in that age to come influenced by that Government of God will be better or greater than ancient Israel. (notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.) Now he drives this point home. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist (who represents ancient Israel) until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. You see what Jesus is pointing out that even though ancient Israel has been the greatest nation on earth as far as God's influential reign on earth through the hearts of men. The violent have taken it by force, meaning in war. Israel's own wicked kings and foreign nations have conquered and ruled this incomparable nation on earth.

But in the age of promise, this age. Nations under the influnce of the invisible government of God will be far greater than ancient Israel was. Morally , spiritually and physically. And So it is.

royal priest · Feb 11, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Some options that have historically been presented:

The Kingdom is forcefully breaking into the present age.

Violent men like the zealots try to advance the Kingdom by force.

Needy souls force their way into the doors of the Kingdom.

The Kingdom is persecuted in the present age. It suffers violence from violent, unbelieving men.

Puritan Thomas Watson wrote a book on these words titled, 'Heaven Taken by Storm.' Here is an excerpt:

The more violence we have used for heaven, the sweeter heaven will be when we come there. As when a man has been grafting trees or setting flowers in his garden, it is pleasant to review and look over his labors, so it shall be in heaven when we shall remember our former zeal and activity for the kingdom. It will enhance heaven and add to the joy of it. For a Christian to think, "Such a day I spent in examining my heart; such a day I was weeping for sin; when others were at their sport, I was at my prayers; and now, have I lost anything by this violence? My tears are wiped away and the wine of Paradise cheers my heart. I now enjoy Him whom my soul loves; I now have the crown and white robes I so longed for." Oh, how pleasant will it be to think, "This is the heaven my Savior bled for and I sweat for"!

FireDragon76 · Feb 11, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Some options that have historically been presented:

The Kingdom is forcefully breaking into the present age.

Violent men like the zealots try to advance the Kingdom by force.

Needy souls force their way into the doors of the Kingdom.

The Kingdom is persecuted in the present age. It suffers violence from violent, unbelieving men.

#4 fits with historical Jesus scholarship. Other interpretations really don't make sense to me, they seem to be lifting the words out of their context altogether in favor of searching out allegorical interpretations. That isn't the best way to do biblical interpretation, IMO.

Tree of Life · Feb 11, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
#4 fits with historical Jesus scholarship. Other interpretations really don't make sense to me, they seem to be lifting the words out of their context altogether in favor of spiritual interpretations.

I'm inclined to go with #4. What do you mean by historical Jesus scholarship?

FireDragon76 · Feb 11, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I'm inclined to go with #4. What do you mean by historical Jesus scholarship?

I mean the academy's attempts to understand Jesus of Nazareth through post-enlightenment methods, as opposed to relying upon traditional religious authority.

FatalFantasy · Feb 11, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Matthew 11:12

ESV - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.

NASB - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

NIV - From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

KJV - And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Greek - ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν.

A similar expression can be found in Luke 16:16 but it's not clear that Luke's usage is the same as Matthew's. They could mean entirely different things.

What did Jesus mean?

Arhh! I lost my whole post

throughfiierytrial · Feb 12, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Matthew 11:12

ESV - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.

NASB - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

NIV - From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

KJV - And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Greek - ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν.

A similar expression can be found in Luke 16:16 but it's not clear that Luke's usage is the same as Matthew's. They could mean entirely different things.

What did Jesus mean?

Mathew 11:12:
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.
NIV1984 (More Accurate in the eyes of many serious Christians)
I first learned this verse from NIV84 and so I understand it to mean that by the force and power of God the Kingdom of Heaven has been forcefully advancing. Believers are forceful in grabbing hold of faith...which is also a product the force of God...we overcome the world through Him. Love and faithfulness are forceful when you consider your exercise of faith in a sinful world and body and Satan himself.

Dave L · Feb 12, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Matthew 11:12

ESV - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.

NASB - From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

NIV - From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

KJV - And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Greek - ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν.

A similar expression can be found in Luke 16:16 but it's not clear that Luke's usage is the same as Matthew's. They could mean entirely different things.

What did Jesus mean?

The kingdom suffered violence with John's beheading, the persecution of believers, the killing of Jesus... And it suffers violence wherever Christians receive persecution.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 12, 2019

But unbelievers do not try to take the Kingdom of God by violence because they are not interested in the Kingdom. Jesus says it was from the days of John the Baptist until now (i.e. the present moment that Jesus was speaking) that the kingdom of God suffered violence. If this was in regards to unbelieving nations persecuting God's people this would not exactly be true because of the Jewish Exile, etc.

I believe the violent taking the Kingdom by force is in regards to the Pharisees persecuting God's own real people by their use of violence. Did you see how the Pharisees were quick to act on the Law to stone a lady caught in the act of adultery? My guess is that this woman caught in the act of adultery was not something that the Pharisees just discovered or learned about. They knew of her sin already and did nothing. But because they wanted to destroy Jesus, they used her as bargaining chip and did not probably even care if she got stoned or not (even though they were aware of her sin for a long time already). Hence, the Kingdom suffered violence by the hands of the religious elite (i.e. the Pharisees). Paul persecuted Christians and had them thrown in prison and forced them to blaspheme. Jesus was crucified ultimately by the charges laid against Jesus by the Pharisees. Are we to assume that this was a new development? Surely not. These Pharisees were like this for quite some time (i.e. Since the days of John the Baptist - Just as Jesus said).

throughfiierytrial · Feb 12, 2019

Dave L said:
The kingdom suffered violence with John's beheading, the persecution of believers, the killing of Jesus... And it suffers violence wherever Christians receive persecution.

Looking at your post...
what then does it mean, "the violent take it by force"? - ESV (which you cite)

Are we to conclude that the faithful are violent?

Here is another version the new EHV...
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been advancing forcefully and forceful people are seizing it.

The word forceful fits and is appropriate...the Scriptures speak clearly against violence...do not take revenge, but leave room for the Lord's revenge...let your gentleness be known by all, etc.
Paul says in Ephesians 4:31:
Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. --NIV2011

throughfiierytrial · Feb 12, 2019

Jason0047 said:
But unbelievers do not try to take the Kingdom of God by violence because they are not interested in the Kingdom. Jesus says it was from the days of John the Baptist until now (i.e. the present moment that Jesus was speaking) that the kingdom of God suffered violence. If this was in regards to unbelieving nations persecuting God's people this would not exactly be true because of the Jewish Exile, etc.

I believe the violent taking the Kingdom by force is in regards to the Pharisees persecuting God's own real people by their use of violence. Did you see how the Pharisees were quick to act on the Law to stone a lady caught in the act of adultery? My guess is that this woman caught in the act of adultery was not something that the Pharisees just discovered or learned about. They knew of her sin already and did nothing. But because they wanted to destroy Jesus, they used her as bargaining chip and did not probably even care if she got stoned or not (even though they were aware of her sin for a long time already). Hence, the Kingdom suffered violence by the hands of the religious elite (i.e. the Pharisees). Paul persecuted Christians and had them thrown in prison and forced them to blaspheme. Jesus was crucified ultimately by the charges laid against Jesus by the Pharisees. Are we to assume that this was a new development? Surely not. These Pharisees were like this for quite some time (i.e. Since the days of John the Baptist).

As I've already responded though, I believe you are selecting a translation which is misleading in this Matthew passage.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 12, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
As I've already responded though, I believe you are selecting a translation which is misleading in this Matthew passage.

Not at all. The King James has been around for hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up.

Daniel Martinovich · Feb 12, 2019

Dave L said:
The kingdom suffered violence with John's beheading, the persecution of believers, the killing of Jesus... And it suffers violence wherever Christians receive persecution.

You have the correct interpretation aside from one small feature. Jesus is using John the Baptist figuratively for ancient Israel.
John the Baptist represents or personifies the Law and the prophets. (He is more than a prophet.) To put this in another way. The Mosaic Law and the Prophets whom John symbolizes preceded and prepared the way for the Messiah. (10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before your face, which shall prepare your way before you.) Jesus extrapolates this by saying that the law and the prophets gave birth to ancient Israel. (Among them that are born of women) He proceeds to state that there has not been a nation on earth like ancient Israel in the sense of the Government of God's influence over a people. (there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist. Yet he states that even the least of nations in that age to come influenced by that Government of God will be better or greater than ancient Israel. (notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.) Now he drives this point home. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist (who represents ancient Israel) until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. You see what Jesus is pointing out that even though ancient Israel has been the greatest nation on earth as far as God's influential reign on earth through the hearts of men. The violent have taken it by force, meaning in war. Israel's own wicked kings and foreign nations have conquered and ruled this incomparable nation on earth.

But in the age of promise, this age. Nations under the influnce of the invisible government of God will be far greater than ancient Israel was. Morally , spiritually and physically. And So it is.

Sanoy · Feb 12, 2019

At His coming Jesus's was establishing a Spiritual kingdom so I think we must view this spiritually. Do we seize our place in the kingdom by our own force? In the verse it is the kingdom suffering violence here, and it is being "Seized", or taken by force... just as any kingdom would. That doesn't seem to decribe our internal conflict, or the path of salvation. It sounds a lot more like Luke 10:18-19.

I think we have to look to Matthew as the primary source because it includes the relative context, whereas Luke seems to round up a bunch of individual sayings of Jesus and places them in this section in a single lump.

Dave L · Feb 12, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Looking at your post...
what then does it mean, "the violent take it by force"? - ESV (which you cite)

Are we to conclude that the faithful are violent?

Here is another version the new EHV...
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been advancing forcefully and forceful people are seizing it.

The word forceful fits and is appropriate...the Scriptures speak clearly against violence...do not take revenge, but leave room for the Lord's revenge...let your gentleness be known by all, etc.
Paul says in Ephesians 4:31:
Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. --NIV2011

I think your interpretation works. But I think persecution and Satan trying to eradicate the kingdom has a more literal history.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 12, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Not at all. The King James has been around for hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up.

That is true, but its language in some areas of Scripture is poor and we are left to look at it in the light of the rest of Scripture. The word violent there either had at that time as one of its meanings a meaning close to forceful or the word was not translated well due to a lack of knowledge...some experts have said we actually have better understanding of the Greek and Hebrew now then back then due to discoveries of more ancient documents. I cannot attest to this claim, however, violence on part of believers does not fit in the passage unless you are perhaps able to discern an ancient meaning by it that is akin to forceful. Christians are forceful in a non-physical manner for we have to forcefully overcome the sinful nature, the sinful world and the Devil...all this is done by the help of God.

Again, in your selected translation, what can the last half of the passage mean while still faithfully fitting into the bible as a whole with no contradictions?
Here's the last half of the passage to which I am referring...
"the violent take it by force"

"the violent" would be refering to Christians taking hold of the faith (the Kingdom).
\

The Violent Take it By Force

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

God is Love

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Friend

debtor to grace

Well-Known Member

Hide The Pain

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Truth-Lover

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Truth-Lover

Truth-Lover

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Friend

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Truth-Lover

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency