The Violent Take it By Force

[Tree of Life]

You originally said I was using an imperfect translation. The KJV is my final word of authority. Do you believe there are errors in the KJV?

Jason please take your KJV-onlyism elsewhere. I would suggest "Debate Non-Christian Religions".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason please take your KJV-onlyism elsewhere. I would suggest "Debate Non-Christian Religions".

Yes, my apologies. I was just in the process of creating the thread long before you posted so as to redirect the conversation.

 

[david tyler]

YOU'RE MIXING UP PHYSICAL VIOLENCE...( EARTHLY) WITH SPIRITUAL VIOLENCE.(SPIRITUAL REALM-YOUR DREAMS)...YOU CANNOT BEAT UP,PUNCH ,,KICK, SATAN PHYSICALLY, YOU WILL ONLY BE LAUGHED AT AND HE WILL GO GET MORE OF HIS FRIENDS, FOR YOU TO KEEP TRYING!...YOU HAVE TO USE SPIRITUAL VIOLENCE HERE, WITH AN AUTHORITIVE VOICE, ALL THAT IS IN THE BIBLE TO BE APPLIED.. AND ALL JUST LIKE JESUS DID!!!AGAINST SATAN..DEMONS ONLY WILL ACT/REACT TO AUTHORITY GIVEN TO YOU AND IN YOU FROM JESUS,,NOTHING ELSE WORKS HERE.. YOU YELL ALLAH..OR BHUDDA, OR ANYTHING HINDU.. OR ANYTHING ELSE,,YOU WILL BRING MANY DEMONS UPON YOU,,,NOTHING IS KNOWN TO DEMONS EXCEPT AUTHORITY AND JESUS..REMEMBER THIS WHEN YOU LEARN TO START FIGHTING THEM IN YOUR DREAMS!!!!..AS IN TAKING HEAVEN, NOT SO. THEY DEMONS ARE ONLY IN THE FIRST AND THIRD TEIR, WHERE ALMOST ALL OF US ARE!!!,ONCE YOU MAKE IT OR GET TO THE TOTAL WHITE,, IT'S GOOD, BUT THAT DOES NOT GIVE YOU FREE, REIN. AS GOD WILL TEST YOU FROM TIME TO TIME!!...AND WHEN YOU DO NOT PASS A TEST YOU GO BACK AND WORK YOURSELF BACK UP THROUGH, THE BLACK TIER,,THE RED TEIR,, AND THE SEMI-WHITE,RECIEVING YOU CLEAR, TIER...ONCE YOU LEARN ALL THIS, THEN IT'S SATAN TURN,,DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AT ALL YOU HAVE TO USE GODS TRUE WORDS AND WHAT ARE THEY HIS WORDS FOR EVERYONE!!1...THE TEN COMMANDMENTS..THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE KEY TO DEFEATING SATAN...I MADE IT UP TO THE THIRD TIER WHERE EVIL/DARKNESS SATAN WAS NOT ALLOWED..I SAW JESUS ON A HORSE IN THE DISTANCE,,,SATAN CAME AND GOT ME WITH BUBBLE..I JUST THOUGHT WHAT IS THIS?...I HESITATED AGAIN TO LATE..IN THE BUBBLE..TALKING TO SATAN,,,,ALL I HAD TO SAY TO START THE DEFEAT,,WAS THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE THEE.THE GOD OF ABRAHAM/ISSAC/JACOB,,SO REMEMBER YOU CANNOT GET RID OF WHAT YOU THINK IS A DEMON. INFORMATION FOR YOU.DEMONS RESPOND TO JESUS AND HIS WORDS..SATAN RESPONDS TO OLD SCHOOL,,GODS WORDS...BE STRONG BE AUTHORITIVE AND LEARN SPIRITUAL VIOLENCE,,WHY AM I TELLING YOU THIS FOR YOU, YOUR VICTORY..AS THE END TIMES DRAW NEAR, WARS, AND THE ECONOMY STIFFLE,,THEY ARE GOING TO COME AT YOU FROM ALL ANGLES..BECAUSE NOW YOU ARE WORRYING ABOUT WAR/ECONOMY /EARTH...FREE YOUR SELF. NOW,,CALL OUT TO JESUS IN YOUR DREAMS!!!SHOW HIM MORE THAT YOU LOVE HIM ..PRETTY SOON THE DREAM BARRIER IS GOING TO BREAK WIDE OPEN AND YOU WILL DISCOVER FOR YOURSELVES WHATS IN THIER,,WE ALL WILL BE FIGHTING A WAR ON TWO FRONTS!!,THE TRINITY,,DEMONS/SATAN,, YOUR SPIRIT...TAKE CARE I CANT WARN YOU ENOUGH,,,WHEN TROUBLES COME,ON EARTH, AND THEN SATAN ATTACKING YOU WITHIN YOUR MIND SLEEP/DREAMS,,,,DON'T BE UN-PREPARED!!,WORK ON YOUR SELF NOW..AND GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT IS WITH ALL OF US IN STRENGTH.AMEN

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I believe Jesus means that violent men seize hold of the Kingdom. They don't thereby enter in or control the Kingdom. But they do inflict violence upon it, in some sense, when they persecute Kingdom people.

Hmmm, cannot agree. Reading the first part of the passage we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is advancing forcefully. That in my view is a good thing for Christianity. Events were unfolding quickly and soon Jesus would die for our sins upon the cross. As others have already mentioned there is spiritual war in the heavenly realms and as Paul says in Ephesians we are in that battle...the battle against spiritual forces in the heavenly realm.
Finally aren't you misreading the last half of v12? It is there that Jesus states that forceful men ARE ENTERING.
My own understanding is that Jesus confirms for us that much spiritual force is required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven which stems from the gift of faith and an overcoming of the world which would have us neglect or reject this gift. We are not to consider those of faith to be weak but rather strong...and ultimately we are to consider Jesus and the gifts He gives to mankind as all-powerful.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While there will be a war in heaven, the spiritual war interpretation on Matthew 11:12 does not work because it is not in any way explained in Scripture at all. We never get to see the importance to the lesson of Matthew 11:12 to our own life in regards to this point in Scripture. How does it help us to know if there are bad angels striving to take God's Kingdom by force since the days of John? It does not make sense to my life. How does that effect the lives of the disciples or my life as a Christian? Jesus and His followers tells us things so as to prepare us for things in this life. Matthew 11:12 is about preparing us against the religious elite that will come to do physical violence against us again at some point in the future. It's already happened during Jesus's time, and Paul's time. It has already happened through out history after the Bible was completed. Scripture repeatedly talks about how Christ and His followers attacked by religious individuals. This also is prophetically spoken about by Jesus for believers in the future, too.

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." (John 16:2).

 

[throughfiierytrial]

While there will be a war in heaven, the spiritual war interpretation on Matthew 11:12 does not work because it is not in any way explained in Scripture at all. We never get to see the importance to the lesson of Matthew 11:12 to our own life in regards to this point in Scripture. How does it help us to know if there are bad angels striving to take God's Kingdom by force since the days of John? It does not make sense to my life. How does that effect the lives of the disciples or my life as a Christian? Jesus and His followers tells us things so as to prepare us for things in this life. Matthew 11:12 is about preparing us against the religious elite that will come to do physical violence against us again at some point in the future. It's already happened during Jesus's time, and Paul's time. It has already happened through out history after the Bible was completed. Scripture repeatedly talks about how Christ and His followers attacked by religious individuals. This also is prophetically spoken about by Jesus for believers in the future, too.

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." (John 16:2).

Have you even read Ephesians 6? It doesn't sound like it from what you have just written, here is a section of it...
Ephesians 6:10-14:
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then..
We do not understand the battle and need not, we are told that we must adhere to our faith in God and all His prescripts or we are on the wrong side.
Really Jason you do not read critically and spiritually and so why should we value your input. You are also coming up with an idea you believe fits and it too does not fit the passage. Just one short passage, please read every word.

 

[Halbhh]

Hmmm, cannot agree. Reading the first part of the passage we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is advancing forcefully. That in my view is a good thing for Christianity. Events were unfolding quickly and soon Jesus would die for our sins upon the cross. As others have already mentioned there is spiritual war in the heavenly realms and as Paul says in Ephesians we are in that battle...the battle against spiritual forces in the heavenly realm.
Finally aren't you misreading the last half of v12? It is there that Jesus states that forceful men ARE ENTERING.
My own understanding is that Jesus confirms for us that much spiritual force is required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven which stems from the gift of faith and an overcoming of the world which would have us neglect or reject this gift. We are not to consider those of faith to be weak but rather strong...and ultimately we are to consider Jesus and the gifts He gives to mankind as all-powerful.

Yes. Whereas in ordinary times God sends illusions to the hard hearted, and they cannot even believe at all --
“ ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ ”

Why? because they are hard hearted, or as in Isaiah 6 --
“ ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”


The hard hearted are 'violent' in a way. But, here in this extraordinary time, Christ Himself is right in front of many eyes...and some will perhaps turn and repent even with hearts that were not entirely soft, because they could see his power, and would turn merely for self interest.

It's not that hearts are to be entirely already soft. That's a gift to us, that deeper change. But before that change, there are degrees of hardness. Some commentaries here :
Matthew 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subject to violence, and the violent lay claim to it.

 

[Tone]

If the Kingdom is Messiah within us then how can it be said by Jesus that "forceful [also stated here by some, violent] men are entering. ?

Maybe because, by extension, we are Kingdom property and all they can do is attack us...haven't they always settled for that.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Maybe because, by extension, we are Kingdom property and all they can do is attack us...haven't they always settled for that.

I believe you are still reading the verse in the wrong light. The general thrust of it is that the Kingdom of Heaven is advancing forcefully and the forceful are entering the Kingdom. To enter the Kingdom of Heaven is a blessed event and is for the blessed...those blessed by God...they are called, predestined, enlightened by the Gospel with the work of the Holy Spirit. It is the blessed (the Kingdom of Heaven) who are being spoken of as forceful you see this with the words, "they are entering". So we must not be thrown off base by the word forceful which is usually seen in a negative light where Christianity is concerned.
Please look at the passage again and read it carefully. Most here are referring to the forceful as though they are coming from outside Christendom and attacking us who are on the inside. That is not how it is written however. The last part of the sentence says forceful men are entering.
Where Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven He says we "enter", that is the language He uses, it is consistent. See the following passages to find this for yourself...
Matthew 5:20; Matthew 7:21; Matthew 18:3; Matthew 19:23; Matthew 23:13;

 

[Tree of Life]

Finally aren't you misreading the last half of v12? It is there that Jesus states that forceful men ARE ENTERING.

The text doesn't say this.

ESV - and the violent take it by force.

NASB - violent men take it by force.

NIV (2011) - violent people have been raiding it.

The italicized expressions above are all renderings of one Greek word - ἁρπάζω (harpazo). Here's a few dictionary entries for the meaning of this Greek word:

773 ἁρπάζω (harpazō): vb.; ≡ Str 726; TDNT 1.472—1. LN 18.4 snatch, seize (Mt 13:19; Jn 6:15; Ac 23:10; Jude 23); a rapture to God and glory (Ac 8:39; 2Co 12:2, 4; 1Th 4:17; Rev 12:5+); 2. LN 39.49 attack, implying the seizing of something (Mt 11:12; Jn 10:12+); 3. LN 57.235 plunder, seize possessions by force (Mt 12:29+); 4. LN 37.28 gain control over, formally, snatch from the hand (Jn 10:28, 29+)

Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament)​

“To take something forcefully” (firmly, quickly or rapaciously). Thus a. “to steal” (Jos. Ant., 20, 214 of robbers), b. “To capture in war.”

Foerster, W. (1964–). ἁρπάζω, ἁρπαγμός. G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 1, p. 472). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
​

18.4 ἁρπάζωa: to grab or seize by force, with the purpose of removing and/or controlling—‘to seize, to snatch away, to take away.’ ἐκέλευσεν τὸ στράτευμα καταβὰν ἁρπάσαι αὐτὸν ἐκ μέσου αὐτῶν ‘he ordered soldiers to go down (into the group) and snatch him away from them’ Ac 23:10; ἔρχεται ὁ πονηρὸς καὶ ἁρπάζει τὸ ἐσπαρμένον ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ ‘the Evil One comes and snatches away the seed that was sown in his heart’ Mt 13:19. In Mt 13:19 the context as a whole is figurative, but a more or less literal rendering of ‘snatches’ or ‘seizes’ is probably satisfactory.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 220). New York: United Bible Societies.
​

As you can see, the word does not mean "enter". It means to seize, snatch away, attack, or plunder. It's consistent with the idea of persecution.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Have you even read Ephesians 6? It doesn't sound like it from what you have just written, here is a section of it...
Ephesians 6:10-14:
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then..
We do not understand the battle and need not, we are told that we must adhere to our faith in God and all His prescripts or we are on the wrong side.
Really Jason you do not read critically and spiritually and so why should we value your input. You are also coming up with an idea you believe fits and it too does not fit the passage. Just one short passage, please read every word.

I am 100% aware of Ephesians 6 in what it says. Clearly we are in a spiritual war. But Matthew 11:12 does not talk specifically about a spiritual war in that instance. It simply talks about how the violent attempt to take the kingdom of God by force. These are not fallen angels exclusively but they are the Pharisees. For Jesus says that there are going to be those who will seek to kill us one day and they will think they are doing God a service. The Pharisees were responsible for killing Jesus. They also thought they were acting on God's behalf. Paul persecuted Christians. The violent take the Kingdom by force. That is what it is saying here. No verse or set of verses ties in directly with the enemy and his kingdom alone. Yes, in part, it is the enemy making the Pharisees to act in violence. So in part you are half right. The Pharisees who sought to kill Jesus and attacked Christians later were of the devil's kingdom. The enemy was influencing them to do evil things contrary to God's ways. But the Pharisees also have free will and they were acting on their own behalf ultimately, as well (and they will be judged by their Creator for their wrong actions).

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The text doesn't say this.

ESV - and the violent take it by force.

NASB - violent men take it by force.

NIV (2011) - violent people have been raiding it.

The italicized expressions above are all renderings of one Greek word - ἁρπάζω (harpazo). Here's a few dictionary entries for the meaning of this Greek word:

773 ἁρπάζω (harpazō): vb.; ≡ Str 726; TDNT 1.472—1. LN 18.4 snatch, seize (Mt 13:19; Jn 6:15; Ac 23:10; Jude 23); a rapture to God and glory (Ac 8:39; 2Co 12:2, 4; 1Th 4:17; Rev 12:5+); 2. LN 39.49 attack, implying the seizing of something (Mt 11:12; Jn 10:12+); 3. LN 57.235 plunder, seize possessions by force (Mt 12:29+); 4. LN 37.28 gain control over, formally, snatch from the hand (Jn 10:28, 29+)

Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament)​

“To take something forcefully” (firmly, quickly or rapaciously). Thus a. “to steal” (Jos. Ant., 20, 214 of robbers), b. “To capture in war.”

Foerster, W. (1964–). ἁρπάζω, ἁρπαγμός. G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 1, p. 472). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
​

18.4 ἁρπάζωa: to grab or seize by force, with the purpose of removing and/or controlling—‘to seize, to snatch away, to take away.’ ἐκέλευσεν τὸ στράτευμα καταβὰν ἁρπάσαι αὐτὸν ἐκ μέσου αὐτῶν ‘he ordered soldiers to go down (into the group) and snatch him away from them’ Ac 23:10; ἔρχεται ὁ πονηρὸς καὶ ἁρπάζει τὸ ἐσπαρμένον ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ ‘the Evil One comes and snatches away the seed that was sown in his heart’ Mt 13:19. In Mt 13:19 the context as a whole is figurative, but a more or less literal rendering of ‘snatches’ or ‘seizes’ is probably satisfactory.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 220). New York: United Bible Societies.
​

As you can see, the word does not mean "enter". It means to seize, snatch away, attack, or plunder. It's consistent with the idea of persecution.

Oh dear, I believe we'll have to part company with our own individual ideas only b/c of translation differences. I rule out NIV 2011 for certain due to its many troubling and contradictory renderings. I personally rule out the KJV because of the archaic language which is acceptable for reading personally and privately, but not good for discussion points as these...too open to dispute. I personally accept NIV84 and EHV. This is their rendering:
Matthew 11:12:
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing and forceful men lay hold of it. --NIV84

Matthew 11:12:
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been advancing forcefully and forceful people are seizing it. --EHV

And as you may well guess, I stand by my interpretation. And one does need to know the colloquial of the day and then too the original tongue it was spoken in...some argue Jesus spoke the NT in Hebrew, and all the other arguments, then one would look in part at the Hebrew expressions from the OT. I say look at the context. Jesus said the Father gave it to the children, we do not all need to be linguists.
Thanks for the thread, nice chatting or arguing with you...

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I am 100% aware of Ephesians 6 in what it says. Clearly we are in a spiritual war. But Matthew 11:12 does not talk specifically about a spiritual war in that instance. It simply talks about how the violent attempt to take the kingdom of God by force. These are not fallen angels exclusively but they are the Pharisees. For Jesus says that there are going to be those who will seek to kill us one day and they will think they are doing God a service. The Pharisees were responsible for killing Jesus. They also thought they were acting on God's behalf. Paul persecuted Christians. The violent take the Kingdom by force. That is what it is saying here. No verse or set of verses ties in directly with the enemy and his kingdom alone. Yes, in part, it is the enemy making the Pharisees to act in violence. So in part you are half right. The Pharisees who sought to kill Jesus and attacked Christians later were of the devil's kingdom. The enemy was influencing them to do evil things contrary to God's ways. But the Pharisees also have free will and they were acting on their own behalf ultimately, as well (and they will be judged by their Creator for their wrong actions).

We are not connecting Jason, sorry for that. I may be unclear in my posts as to what I intend to point out, but you and I grow too far apart in our ideas about what is even being said. Again, sorry. I am bowing out of this discussion now. I made my points and progress was not made advancing it nor did I find myself being swayed by anyone else's understanding. It happens...there are too many differences in the translations.

 

[Tree of Life]

Oh dear, I believe we'll have to part company with our own individual ideas only b/c of translation differences. I rule out NIV 2011 for certain due to its many troubling and contradictory renderings. I personally rule out the KJV because of the archaic language which is acceptable for reading personally and privately, but not good for discussion points as these...too open to dispute. I personally accept NIV84 and EHV. This is their rendering:
Matthew 11:12:
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing and forceful men lay hold of it. --NIV84

Matthew 11:12:
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been advancing forcefully and forceful people are seizing it. --EHV

And as you may well guess, I stand by my interpretation. And one does need to know the colloquial of the day and then too the original tongue it was spoken in...some argue Jesus spoke the NT in Hebrew, and all the other arguments, then one would look in part at the Hebrew expressions from the OT. I say look at the context. Jesus said the Father gave it to the children, we do not all need to be linguists.
Thanks for the thread, nice chatting or arguing with you...

So you're saying that you're sticking to your guns no matter what the Greek says?

 

[Tone]

I believe you are still reading the verse in the wrong light. The general thrust of it is that the Kingdom of Heaven is advancing forcefully and the forceful are entering the Kingdom. To enter the Kingdom of Heaven is a blessed event and is for the blessed...those blessed by God...they are called, predestined, enlightened by the Gospel with the work of the Holy Spirit. It is the blessed (the Kingdom of Heaven) who are being spoken of as forceful you see this with the words, "they are entering". So we must not be thrown off base by the word forceful which is usually seen in a negative light where Christianity is concerned.
Please look at the passage again and read it carefully. Most here are referring to the forceful as though they are coming from outside Christendom and attacking us who are on the inside. That is not how it is written however. The last part of the sentence says forceful men are entering.
Where Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven He says we "enter", that is the language He uses, it is consistent. See the following passages to find this for yourself...
Matthew 5:20; Matthew 7:21; Matthew 18:3; Matthew 19:23; Matthew 23:13;

I can see a little of what you are saying in Matthew 23:13, where one can get the idea that, since the scribes and Pharisees are hindering people from entering the Kingdom, they should be taken out of the way. But, what does this look like, certainly not like a bloody crusade right?

I think the passage in question is more along the lines of the contrast between the old religious kingdom and the new Kingdom that Messiah ushered in:

Matthew 20:25-28
"But Jesus called them to him and said, h“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles ilord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.jIt shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,3 4 kto serve, and lto give his life as a ransom for mmany.”

 

[throughfiierytrial]

So you're saying that you're sticking to your guns no matter what the Greek says?

I did not contradict the Greek in my understanding. You have to see by all these translator differences that this is a manner of speaking which some have left in the hands of the reader to understand. You cannot be too literal in my view and there's no proving that!

 

[Tree of Life]

I did not contradict the Greek in my understanding. You have to see by all these translator differences that this is a manner of speaking which some have left in the hands of the reader to understand. You cannot be too literal in my view and there's no proving that!

Could you offer some evidence that ἁρπάζω (harpazo) could possibly mean "entering"? No translation, including NIV 1984, goes with this rendering.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I can see a little of what you are saying in Matthew 23:13, where one can get the idea that, since the scribes and Pharisees are hindering people from entering the Kingdom, they should be taken out of the way. But, what does this look like, certainly not like a bloody crusade right?

I think the passage in question is more along the lines of the contrast between the old religious kingdom and the new Kingdom that Messiah ushered in:

Matthew 20:25-28
"But Jesus called them to him and said, h“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles ilord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.jIt shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,3 4 kto serve, and lto give his life as a ransom for mmany.”

I am moving off this thread now, but want you to know that you are not understanding my point. I believe this passage means...roughly...the Kingdom of Heaven was forcefully/swiftly advancing to it's climax (Christ's crucifixion) many were grabbing hold of it as Christ preached about salvation...forcefully/in a very determined manner/with all their heart and soul. This act requires one to go against the flow and against the devil, the world and the sinful nature...it is this way forceful. Sorry I'm not too clear today.

 

[Tone]

I am moving off this thread now, but want you to know that you are not understanding my point. I believe this passage means...roughly...the Kingdom of Heaven was forcefully/swiftly advancing to it's climax (Christ's crucifixion) many were grabbing hold of it as Christ preached about salvation...forcefully/in a very determined manner/with all their heart and soul. This act requires one to go against the flow and against the devil, the world and the sinful nature...it is this way forceful. Sorry I'm not too clear today.

Ohhhh okay...yeah, I can see that...you could've used the woman with the flow who took hold of His garment, the ones who lowered their friend through the roof, the lepers who wouldn't shut up, the lady who dismissed His rejection and spoke up--in faith, and many many more as examples of your point!

Or even the "faith chapter", aka, Hebrews 11, wherein those champions of faith, violently, shook the kingdom of darkness...

Yeah, so I think both perspectives are valid, because it is violent when light and darkness meet...both sides get active!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was just reading Matthew 11 again. In verse 7, Jesus is speaking to the multitudes. If a person keeps reading past verse 12, and on we learn that in verses 16-19 that both Jesus and John the Baptist are wrongfully accused (Which is no doubt by the Pharisees or the Jews). In verses 20-24 Jesus gives a warning of judgment to certain Israelite towns. The Pharisees were the religious leaders of the Jews (even in these towns). Yet, Jesus condemned them. The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence by those who are violent (Which is the Pharisees or the Jewish religious leaders). Jesus was rebuking them and yet desiring them to be saved. These people (the Israelites) Jesus was talking to were being guided by the blind Pharisees and their forceful violent ways in trying to take the Kingdom by force.