The UnScriptural concept of "no works"

[aiki]

First, let me say that NOBODY can earn salvation apart from Jesus. But, with what Jesus did for us and continues to do for us, how dare us tell God that it isn't good enough. Do people actually think about this when saying things like "nobody's perfect" "we are all just sinners", etc????

Who, exactly, is saying that Christ's atoning sacrifice on Calvary isn't "good enough"? Good enough for what?

It is true that no one is perfect (except Christ, of course). It is also true that every born-again person is a sinner saved by grace. So, why the indignation at those who say so?

So, Jesus died so that you could be forgiven of your sin. His blood covers your sin; but not so you can keep on willfully sinning once you come to Jesus.

Of course not. Who even believes this? I've never heard anyone say that salvation is a ticket to living a sinful life.

Was I never given a free gift in the first place OR did I destroy the free gift I was given by my failure to change my lifestyle--after being set free the first time?

As analogies go, the one you've offered is very inept. The gift of salvation is not a thing, it is not merely a get-out-of-hell pass, but a Person: Jesus Christ. He is our salvation. (1 John 5:11-12) And when the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), comes to live within a person, they cannot continue to live as they always have. His presence within them, regenerates, and renews, and transforms them. (Titus 3:5-6) So, a man who claims salvation but lives like the devil proves, not that he once had salvation and lost it, but that he was never truly saved at all.

Matthew 7:17-18
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

 

[Oldmantook]

And if a person lives in sin then you will loose out on God's blessing in this life, but never loose their salvation.

That is a totally false statement. If person practices sin, they potentially not only lose "blessing" but they lose salvation as well.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13

 

[Oloyedelove]

Hi your scenario is pretty sad and the problem with it is we are wanting to have a measure to say who is saved and who is not and we tend to look at the works o meter. Your case there is no works and in fact the opposite which many scriptures warn that those living like that will not inherit the kingdom. The scriptures do declare salvation is by faith and only God knows who has saving faith. in 1 Cor regarding a Christian with no works it says, If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

A good example would be comparing Abraham and Lot. Paul declares Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Then James uses Abraham as the example of being justified by works working with faith when he was to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. But Lot is also declared righteous in 2 Peter and in reality we do not have a recording of any righteous work by Lot.

Lot bringing the angels into his home and willingness to protect them at all cost was an example of his righteous deed. That's what Abraham did also.

 

[Oloyedelove]

Hi your scenario is pretty sad and the problem with it is we are wanting to have a measure to say who is saved and who is not and we tend to look at the works o meter. Your case there is no works and in fact the opposite which many scriptures warn that those living like that will not inherit the kingdom. The scriptures do declare salvation is by faith and only God knows who has saving faith. in 1 Cor regarding a Christian with no works it says, If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

A good example would be comparing Abraham and Lot. Paul declares Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Then James uses Abraham as the example of being justified by works working with faith when he was to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. But Lot is also declared righteous in 2 Peter and in reality we do not have a recording of any righteous work by Lot.

Lot bringing the angels into his home and willingness to protect them at all cost was an example of his righteous deed. That's what Abraham did also.

 

[Oloyedelove]

Romans 4 [English Standard Version (ESV)]
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

The day you realize that Paul's teaching on works in Romans and in other portion of scriptures where he outrightly condemned works he is always referring to WORKS OF THE law that's the day u will begin to grasp the books of Paul. Because the same Paul said we've been called unto good works. He made mention of our obligation as believers to do good works several times in his books that sometimes I think some people just read Romans and Galatians and think they understand the Pauline epistles.

 

[Oloyedelove]

I agree with these Scriptures and I love Abraham. What an incredible life of faith.

You do realize you are talking about the guy (Abraham) that is called the Father of our faith and who was willing to be obedient to God out of that BELIEF/FAITH in Him--to the point of walking away from everything he had known, sending away a son he loved, and going through the motions of actually almost killing the one that God said would be his heir in FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE to God, right? Also, there are many other places in the New Testament where "father Abraham" is brought up, right? (See Hebrews and James, for example). But, let's just stick with Paul. So, do you think that the discussion that involved Romans 8:13 and the Romans 4 discussion of Abraham aren't consistent? As I understand the two, they are in perfect unity. Better yet, my understanding is also consistent with what Jesus said in John 14:15: "If you love me, keep my commands" and John 14:23: "If a man love Me, he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and we will come into him, and make Our abode with him." Jesus also said" If you keep my commandments, you shall abide (remain) in my love...." (John 15:10) Which brings me back to what Paul wrote in Romans 8:13: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live."

Be careful not to confuse the works of the Mosaic Law with the good works that should come out of a truly regenerated heart. Romans 8:13 and Gal 6:7-8 are not inconsistent with 1 Cor 1 in my book, but you offer them up as inconsistent in your book; so how do you deal with what you see as Paul's inconsistency?

God bless you. If I knew you've posted this I wouldn't have gone ahead to post the same thing.

 

[Oloyedelove]

I agree with these Scriptures and I love Abraham. What an incredible life of faith.

You do realize you are talking about the guy (Abraham) that is called the Father of our faith and who was willing to be obedient to God out of that BELIEF/FAITH in Him--to the point of walking away from everything he had known, sending away a son he loved, and going through the motions of actually almost killing the one that God said would be his heir in FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE to God, right? Also, there are many other places in the New Testament where "father Abraham" is brought up, right? (See Hebrews and James, for example). But, let's just stick with Paul. So, do you think that the discussion that involved Romans 8:13 and the Romans 4 discussion of Abraham aren't consistent? As I understand the two, they are in perfect unity. Better yet, my understanding is also consistent with what Jesus said in John 14:15: "If you love me, keep my commands" and John 14:23: "If a man love Me, he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and we will come into him, and make Our abode with him." Jesus also said" If you keep my commandments, you shall abide (remain) in my love...." (John 15:10) Which brings me back to what Paul wrote in Romans 8:13: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live."

Be careful not to confuse the works of the Mosaic Law with the good works that should come out of a truly regenerated heart. Romans 8:13 and Gal 6:7-8 are not inconsistent with 1 Cor 1 in my book, but you offer them up as inconsistent in your book; so how do you deal with what you see as Paul's inconsistency?

God bless you. If I knew you've posted this I wouldn't have gone ahead to post the same thing.

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

There is a key point that is often missed in understanding the relationship between works and salvation in the Gospel that causes the incessant unnecessary confusion: The new birth, and its inevitable consequential new nature. The problem with doctrines in the Bible being heard so frequently and lightly is that people (sometimes including Christians) begin to think of spiritual truths as sentimental statements rather than literal facts or events. This is because, whether consciously or unconsciously, the spiritual is often associated with the figurative and the physical is associated with the literal, which is absurd when you understand that we are substantially (as in literally in substance) a spirit that inhabits a body. Thus, though existing physically, we are not merely physical.

The problem that arises from this is the ostensible change without a difference when discussing the distinction between salvation by works and salvation by believing the Gospel. When one asks, "So I am saved without works?" and you correctly respond affirmatively, and they then ask, "So I can be saved and go on sinning?" and you rightly deny that possibility, the audience often becomes confused. It results in the branching of many false doctrines, including salvation by grace and its continuity by works. However, the simple and abundantly designated solution in Scripture is to understand the new birth, and that the new birth is spiritual but not figurative or sentimental but literal; it is a literal - spiritual event. This is so important to comprehend because when one recognizes this, the new nature which necessarily entails new desires and consequently new correspondent actions clarifies the relationship between salvation and works; it clarifies why one can not attain salvation by works but why they can not claim salvation concurrent with no works. They have a new nature! They literally are a new creation!

Your first, physical nature entailed physical desires that produced physical works: Hunger --> eating, fatigue --> rest, social --> communication, boredom --> activity, honour --> ambition, etc. Everything we do in the body that is of the body is because of that body that was received at birth with its nature. If one is born-again, a spiritual but literal event, they will have a new birth with a new nature that entails new desires, ambitions, appetites and actions. You will have spiritual hunger to "eat" the Word of God (Matthew 4:4), spiritual fatigue that needs to rest in Christ, a spiritual need to commune with the Spirit of God, a spiritual discontentment that needs more of God, and a desire for God's glory that makes you ambition to glorify His name.

Obviously no one is perfect, and any who claims to be without sin is actually himself a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 1:8). However, a seed that does not grow is dead, a baby that neither moves nor grows is dead and a "faith" without works is dead (James 2:17, James 2:26) because these things by there very nature, when alive, grow and move and act. Just like a miscarried child has not been born, so one who hears the Gospel but does not grow nor move nor act has never been born-again.

In summary we should understand that salvation does not result from works (and can not be sustained or lost by works) but works do result from salvation and are thus its evidence. If you find yourself snared in sin and are unsure you are saved, it is possible you are and it is possible you are not. The answer is the same to both possibilities: Repent and turn to Christ.

 

[aiki]

That is a totally false statement. If person practices sin, they potentially not only lose "blessing" but they lose salvation as well.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13

Where in this verse does Paul say that a person's salvation is in jeopardy if they sin? It looks to me like he is simply stating a general principle, not teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine. He says much the same thing in in his letter to the Galatians:

Galatians 6:7-8
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

"A man" is a broader, more general, reference than "a Christian man." No matter who a person is, Christian or not, those who are carnally-minded and sow to the flesh, reap corruption and death. Is Paul speaking only and particularly of the second death in Hell? Not in the case of the born-again believer, no. But this doesn't mean they will not suffer any corruption or death. The first casualty of a believer's sin is always their fellowship with (but not relationship to) God. A sinning believer may also experience the death of joy, of peace, of friendships, and even of good health. But, regardless, a genuinely born-again believer remains secure in their second birth, in their adoption into God's family, because their salvation is His work, not theirs.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Lot bringing the angels into his home and willingness to protect them at all cost was an example of his righteous deed. That's what Abraham did also.

Maybe it is an example of a good work by Lot at the same time he is offering the men of the city his virgin daughters to do with them as they like; Peter says Lot was righteous because he was grieved by the wickedness he saw. Lot when told to flee delayed; then he wanted to settle in a small city rather than go where he was directed. Later he fathered two enemy nations through drunken incest.

Anyways the Jews who had fight with Lots descendants coined the phrase thanks a Lot after these events.

 

[Afra]

Totally false. You have just thrown Jesus and Paul's teaching of grace not law, not works into the trash. It is a free gift just like God said. And if a person lives in sin then you will loose out on God's blessing in this life, but never loose their salvation.

My trust is in Jesus alone and nothing else. If I do works it has nothing to do with feeling obligated. If I do any good its because of God in me and His leading. But if not, then eternal life remains eternal life.

In your view, does a person have to love God to be saved?

 

[Roger Guy]

First, let me say that NOBODY can earn salvation apart from Jesus. But, with what Jesus did for us and continues to do for us, how dare us tell God that it isn't good enough. Do people actually think about this when saying things like "nobody's perfect" "we are all just sinners", etc????

So, Jesus died so that you could be forgiven of your sin. His blood covers your sin; but not so you can keep on willfully sinning once you come to Jesus. That doesn't work for God. And, it certainly isn't what He said in Scripture. In fact, Scripture says the opposite. Even people who try to make Paul's message a stand-alone Gospel have to read where Paul said: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." (Rom 8:13) and "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that he shall also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8)

Now let's get past the misuse of the "free gift" concept:

Let's say I get drunk (I don't drink, but let's pretend). Let's say, I kill a pedestrian who did nothing wrong to deserve to be killed. Let's pretend, to make matters worse, that pedestrian was Jesus Christ Himself--who was absolutely free of sin before God. You with me?

So, I get put in jail.

But, when His certified last will and testament are read, He says: "I know that someone is going to kill Me, because they were driving drunk. I refuse to press charges. I want them declared innocent." (now some imagination is required, because Jesus wasn't materialistic; but...) let's say He continues in His will: "Furthermore, I want the one who killed me to be given My car, My house, and all the money I had in My savings."

So, I am released from prison and given His car, His house, and all His money and what He should have had--a FREE life, no longer in bondage to anything. That was what He wanted me to have. That was His GIFT to me. But.....

Let's say I choose to hang out with the wrong people and eventually go back to the alcohol and even add in drugs--because now I have all the money I need and its the "in thing" to do. Suppose I spend everything on the drugs and once addicted mortgage my house to keep my supply coming in or ruin my house because I open the doors to people who don't care to take care of it. Then, to bring it full circle:

I'm out driving drunk (again), total the car, and kill someone in the process,

Was I never given a free gift in the first place OR did I destroy the free gift I was given by my failure to change my lifestyle--after being set free the first time?

If we take God's gift and choose not to repent--but instead choose to continue doing what He freed us from--we are doing worse. We are "trampling underfoot the Son of God." (Heb 10:29). We would be choosing to destroy what He did for us, by choosing to do what glorifies the devil, not God and by choosing to walk in the flesh instead of walking in His Provision--The Holy Spirit! How sad!

Be careful what you believe. It may just cost you your life!

 

[Roger Guy]

Hi. Just one question. Did you ever have to work for a Gift? Have a blessed day.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

In your view, does a person have to love God to be saved?

It's a mute point. A true christian came to a point of realizing that they was a lost sinner with no hope of entering heaven. They came to a crisis of person where they are without hope. But in that moment they realize that Jesus freely has taken their entire life of sin and suffered the punishment they deserved. In this realization they accept God's free gift of eternal life, the forgiveness of all their sins.

Who would not love God that has had this realization. Humans buy expensive gifts for another and the recipient thinks they love the giver because of the gift. How much more when the gift received was the crucified Christ in our place.

 

[Afra]

It's a mute point. A true christian came to a point of realizing that they was a lost sinner with no hope of entering heaven. They came to a crisis of person where they are without hope. But in that moment they realize that Jesus freely has taken their entire life of sin and suffered the punishment they deserved. In this realization they accept God's free gift of eternal life, the forgiveness of all their sins.

Who would not love God that has had this realization. Humans buy expensive gifts for another and the recipient thinks they love the giver because of the gift. How much more when the gift received was the crucified Christ in our place.

Do you need to receive a gift from someone in order to love him? Regardless, plenty of Christians and other people choose not to love God once they have had the above realization. Plenty of people who had that realization at some point in the past are now ranting atheists, satanists, Muslims, etc.

So the question is not a mute point. Does a person have to love God to be saved?

It is an easy question to answer. Please feel free to choose one of the following. "Yes" or "No."

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Do you need to receive a gift from someone in order to love him? Regardless, plenty of Christians and other people choose not to love God once they have had the above realization. Plenty of people who had that realization at some point in the past are now ranting atheists, satanists, Muslims, etc.

So the question is not a mute point. Does a person have to love God to be saved?

It is an easy question to answer. Please feel free to choose one of the following. "Yes" or "No."

First I have never met anyone who truly believed in Jesus alone for salvation and then turned their back on Jesus and gone to another religion.

I doubt you have the level of first person knowledge of such people, but rather I think you are making assumptions.

But what I have seen in first person experience is people who prayed some salvation prayer but never meant it. They only went forward or prayed not because they believed but under extreme pressure of the preacher or evangelist.

So often with the camp of insecure salvation who preach works, preach so much condemnation that they scare people into making some kind of prayer or commitment, but it was never of the persons heart because it did not come from them but rather pressured onto them. And to make it worse, when they did pray a salvation prayer they did so with the false concept of doing works plus receive grace which means they did not get saved. If its not grace, free from any works, including the false concept of repent of sins which does not exist in the Bible, there is no salvation.

If salvation is not received as a free gift apart from any works then there is no salvation.

Also, I have experienced groups where they either pressure people personally into praying a prayer of salvation, even so much where the demand the person repeat after me. The say this out loud to the individual in front of all the people. This person never wanted to pray for salvation but they was pressured into. Then also I have seen people pray the prayer of salvation for the person and said now you are saved because I prayed for you.

These people where never saved. But what happens so often in church is this big push that if you said some prayer you are saved. And these churches pressure people to assume they are saved based on the prayer alone. So these kind of people go on for a time but later give up. Either because they never believed and did not want to so they eventually move on or they are in condemning insecure salvation churches and all the works expected of them, they realize its impossible for them to do and they give up out of frustration.

But all in all the Bible answers the question the most clearest. They left us because they where not of us. Anyone who would turn their backs on Jesus as savior to another religion was never saved. That is if they turned to another religion fully rejecting Jesus. Not those who go looking into other religions because they was so abused by the church they started looking to other religions. But if they are truly saved they will be uncomfortable in what they are doing.

But if they are perfectly fine with rejecting Jesus, the Bible clearly states they was never saved.

So, yes, it is a mute point. A true believer will love God out of gratitude not out of some work they force themselves to do.

 

[Afra]

First I have never met anyone who truly believed in Jesus alone for salvation and then turned their back on Jesus and gone to another religion.

I doubt you have the level of first person knowledge of such people, but rather I think you are making assumptions.

But what I have seen in first person experience is people who prayed some salvation prayer but never meant it. They only went forward or prayed not because they believed but under extreme pressure of the preacher or evangelist.

So often with the camp of insecure salvation who preach works, preach so much condemnation that they scare people into making some kind of prayer or commitment, but it was never of the persons heart because it did not come from them but rather pressured onto them. And to make it worse, when they did pray a salvation prayer they did so with the false concept of doing works plus receive grace which means they did not get saved. If its not grace, free from any works, including the false concept of repent of sins which does not exist in the Bible, there is no salvation.

If salvation is not received as a free gift apart from any works then there is no salvation.

Also, I have experienced groups where they either pressure people personally into praying a prayer of salvation, even so much where the demand the person repeat after me. The say this out loud to the individual in front of all the people. This person never wanted to pray for salvation but they was pressured into. Then also I have seen people pray the prayer of salvation for the person and said now you are saved because I prayed for you.

These people where never saved. But what happens so often in church is this big push that if you said some prayer you are saved. And these churches pressure people to assume they are saved based on the prayer alone. So these kind of people go on for a time but later give up. Either because they never believed and did not want to so they eventually move on or they are in condemning insecure salvation churches and all the works expected of them, they realize its impossible for them to do and they give up out of frustration.

But all in all the Bible answers the question the most clearest. They left us because they where not of us. Anyone who would turn their backs on Jesus as savior to another religion was never saved. That is if they turned to another religion fully rejecting Jesus. Not those who go looking into other religions because they was so abused by the church they started looking to other religions. But if they are truly saved they will be uncomfortable in what they are doing.

But if they are perfectly fine with rejecting Jesus, the Bible clearly states they was never saved.

So, yes, it is a mute point. A true believer will love God out of gratitude not out of some work they force themselves to do.

Whether you have met such people is irrelevant to the discussion. Perhaps you need to get out more. I have met such people and so have many others.

1 John 2 does not teach that each and every person who renounces the Christian faith was never saved in the first place. The book teaches no such thing, and the context of the book has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a person can be saved and then later lose his salvation.

Your view is also refuted by Romans 11, which teaches that one who has saving faith can fall into unbelief. Here is the text:

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
​

In the above text the Jews are the natural branches, and the Gentiles are the wild olive shoots. The Gentiles are grafted in to Christ, and they stand fast through faith. St. Paul teaches that even those Christians who were grafted in, will be cut off, if they do not continue in God's kindness and join the unbelieving Jews and fall into unbelief.

Now can you please answer the question. It is a very easy question to answer. You need only say "Yes" or "No."

(Staff Edit)

 

[Oldmantook]

Where in this verse does Paul say that a person's salvation is in jeopardy if they sin? It looks to me like he is simply stating a general principle, not teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine. He says much the same thing in in his letter to the Galatians:

Galatians 6:7-8
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

"A man" is a broader, more general, reference than "a Christian man." No matter who a person is, Christian or not, those who are carnally-minded and sow to the flesh, reap corruption and death. Is Paul speaking only and particularly of the second death in Hell? Not in the case of the born-again believer, no. But this doesn't mean they will not suffer any corruption or death. The first casualty of a believer's sin is always their fellowship with (but not relationship to) God. A sinning believer may also experience the death of joy, of peace, of friendships, and even of good health. But, regardless, a genuinely born-again believer remains secure in their second birth, in their adoption into God's family, because their salvation is His work, not theirs.

I suggest you study the verse. Rom 8:13 cannot refer to a man in "general." If you look at the previous verse, v.12 it is plainly apparent that Paul is addressing believers as he refers to them as BRETHREN. So your claim that he is addressing "A man" in general is contradicted by Paul's own words.
So when Paul warns that any believer who lives according to the flesh will die, what do you think that means? It cannot mean physical death because everyone experiences physical death no matter what kind of life they live - whether they live according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. Therefore Paul can only be referring to spiritual death. A believer who practices sin and lives according to the flesh will die and be eternally separated from God = NO SALVATION.

Ironically, your reference to the Galatians passage says the same thing. Notice in this verse that Paul is contrasting "corruption" with "everlasting life." Everlasting life of course signifies salvation, so what do you think Paul means by corruption? Corruption is the opposite of having eternal life meaning - not having eternal life. Sowing to the flesh reaps corruption = reaps not having eternal life. This verse exactly parallels Rom 8:13 where it also states that living according to the flesh is spiritual death. The scriptures do not contradict each other.

 

[Afra]

Another has done a good job at explaining Romans 11

Remember, Paul is addressing groups – Jews and Gentiles – not individuals. He clarifies this in the next two verses: “And if the Jews… You Gentiles…” (Rom 11:23-24, GNB). The Jews, as a group, were written off even as individual Jews, such as he and all the apostles, were grafted in through faith. Similarly, the Gentiles as a group have benefited from the kindness of God, but individual Gentiles may yet miss out through unbelief.

None of this talk about being cut off from Christ applies to Christians.

No, this is incorrect. Here is what the text states:

They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.​

The "you" that will be cut off is the same "you" that stands fast through faith. Those are gentile Christians that will be cut off, if they do not continue in God's kindness.

Your theology is also proven false by Hebrews 10:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
​

In the above text those who will have a "fearful expectation judgment" if they continue on sinning are the same Christians who were sanctified by the blood of the covenant. The text clearly teaches that a Christian can fall.

But don’t take my word for it. Here is the Believer’s Bible Commentary:

It must be constantly borne in mind that Paul is not speaking of the church or of individual believers. He is speaking about the Gentiles as such. Nothing can ever separate the Body of Christ from the Head, and nothing can separate a believer from the love of God…

Romans 11 is a warning to those who, like the Jews, stubbornly refuse the grace and goodness of God. Reject his blessings and you’ll curse yourself. This should not frighten the believer. Although the Gentiles as a group may receive or miss out on God’s grace, the body of Christ will never, ever experience the sternness or severity of God. It’s one or the other, not both. Don’t let anyone curse what God has blessed.

Who cares? Everyone can get a Bible commentary to support his view. But don't take my word for it. Here is Haydock's Bible Commentary:

ROMANS 11

We see here, that he who standeth by faith, may fall from it; and therefore must live in fear, and not in the vain presumption and security of modern sectaries. Ch. — The apostle here exhorts the converted Gentiles, to fear lest they fall, and bring upon themselves a punishment similar to that of the Jews. The Jews were his chosen people, the children of the alliance; they have now been stripped of all; the same may also happen to you. You may fall into presumption and incredulity; if you remain firm, it is not by your own merits or works, but by faith, the pure gift of God. Neither faith, nor vocation, nor grace, are inadmissible. You may lose all; and therefore ought always to fear and live in humility. If God has not spared the natural branches, fear, lest he should not spare you. v. 21. Calmet. — The Gentiles are here admonished not to be proud, nor to glory over the Jews; but to take occasion rather from their fall to fear and to be humble, lest they be cast off. Not that the whole Church of Christ can ever fall from him; having been secured by so many divine promises in holy writ; but that each one in particular may fall; and therefore all in general are to be admonished to beware of that, which may happen to any one in particular.​

You see how that works?

I have explained myself but you are trying to force an answer that does not appropriate to my beliefs.

You have offered an explanation but you have not provided a straight forward answer to a very simple question.

Lastly, personal attacks about my theology is inappropriate behavior, therefore I am done responding to you and will ignore your postings in the future.

No, your personal theology, as stated right here in this thread, is perfectly open to attack. This is the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum, and debate here is allowed. This is not the "Let's all blindly accept whatever EternallyKeptByJesus says even though his arguments contradict Sacred Scripture" thread. The fact remains that you have been unable to answer a very simple question, and that should cast doubt on the theology that you have advocated for in this thread.

And if you desire to ignore my future posts, please feel free to do so. That will make correcting your errors less time consuming. Thank you.

 

[mark kennedy]

First, let me say that NOBODY can earn salvation apart from Jesus. But, with what Jesus did for us and continues to do for us, how dare us tell God that it isn't good enough. Do people actually think about this when saying things like "nobody's perfect" "we are all just sinners", etc????

So, Jesus died so that you could be forgiven of your sin. His blood covers your sin; but not so you can keep on willfully sinning once you come to Jesus. That doesn't work for God. And, it certainly isn't what He said in Scripture. In fact, Scripture says the opposite. Even people who try to make Paul's message a stand-alone Gospel have to read where Paul said: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." (Rom 8:13) and "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that he shall also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8)

Now let's get past the misuse of the "free gift" concept:

Let's say I get drunk (I don't drink, but let's pretend). Let's say, I kill a pedestrian who did nothing wrong to deserve to be killed. Let's pretend, to make matters worse, that pedestrian was Jesus Christ Himself--who was absolutely free of sin before God. You with me?

So, I get put in jail.

But, when His certified last will and testament are read, He says: "I know that someone is going to kill Me, because they were driving drunk. I refuse to press charges. I want them declared innocent." (now some imagination is required, because Jesus wasn't materialistic; but...) let's say He continues in His will: "Furthermore, I want the one who killed me to be given My car, My house, and all the money I had in My savings."

So, I am released from prison and given His car, His house, and all His money and what He should have had--a FREE life, no longer in bondage to anything. That was what He wanted me to have. That was His GIFT to me. But.....

Let's say I choose to hang out with the wrong people and eventually go back to the alcohol and even add in drugs--because now I have all the money I need and its the "in thing" to do. Suppose I spend everything on the drugs and once addicted mortgage my house to keep my supply coming in or ruin my house because I open the doors to people who don't care to take care of it. Then, to bring it full circle:

I'm out driving drunk (again), total the car, and kill someone in the process,

Was I never given a free gift in the first place OR did I destroy the free gift I was given by my failure to change my lifestyle--after being set free the first time?

If we take God's gift and choose not to repent--but instead choose to continue doing what He freed us from--we are doing worse. We are "trampling underfoot the Son of God." (Heb 10:29). We would be choosing to destroy what He did for us, by choosing to do what glorifies the devil, not God and by choosing to walk in the flesh instead of walking in His Provision--The Holy Spirit! How sad!

Be careful what you believe. It may just cost you your life!

Just one thing left out of the scenario of the drunk driver, the money in the account with regards to salvation is righteousness.