The UnScriptural concept of "no works"

[Emli]

I was expecting to hear about why good works are an integral part of demonstrating that we are saved. But your OP is about people being unrighteous after claiming to be saved. Two different things.

There is a connection between salvation by grace through faith, and the good works which should follow:

EPHESIANS 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So anyone who claims that he is saved and has produced absolutely no good works is simply self-deceived. The epistle of James deals with this issue.

Also, as per the OP, if anyone claims that he is saved and lives like the devil, he is simply fooling himself.

Those verses are such a great example of why we should never take a verse out of context.

 

[discipler7]

Amen.!

Seems, some Christians do not see that it was the same Godly Jesus Christ who gave Moses the Law/Word of God at EXODUS.3:14/JOHN.8:58.
....... So, believing in Jesus Christ, the Word, also means believing in His Law.

P S - At ACTS.15:24-29, God/Jesus has exempted new Gentile Christians from the burdensome parts of Moses Law, eg circumcision, kosher foods, etc - but not as much for new Jewish Christians.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Works and Faith are both required, as faith (which is what saves) requires works to survive.

If salvation is a flower,

and faith the plant that the flower grows on,

then works are the water with which we feed that plant.

Both the water and the plant are required to have the flower,

but without the plant the water does not produce anything,

and without the water the plant dies.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Right! There is no possible way anyone can earn salvation. It is a free gift that cannot be earned or merited. However, one who claims to accept and follow Jesus Christ, but doesn't act any different from someone else who doesn't make such claims, is not going to be saved. Jesus Himself said that salvation would not be for those who say "Lord, Lord", but for those who DO the will of His Father. "DO" means action, in other words, works.

 

[jamesbond007]

Oh, Absolutely I agree with you.

I'm just referring to when Jesus says, "Store up for yourself treasures in Heaven" and "I will give to every man according to his works".

There is much more to it than this. It says to serve our Lord Jesus faithfully and not love of money or greed, i.e. serving our Lord Jesus is a reward in and of itself.

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." Matthew 6:19-24

"He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." Romans 2:6-8

It means that we should store up our faith in Jesus as the wonderful treasure that God has given us. The good works will follow as a reward in and of itself not as some extra treasure in heaven.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

There is much more to it than this. It says to serve our Lord Jesus faithfully and not love of money or greed, i.e. serving our Lord Jesus is a reward in and of itself.

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." Matthew 6:19-24

"He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." Romans 2:6-8

It means that we should store up our faith in Jesus as the wonderful treasure that God has given us. The good works will follow as a reward in and of itself not as some extra treasure in heaven.

Yes, I agree with you. I was just trying to give a quick reference to the other poster.

 

[Dkh587]

We are saved by faith

True faith produces works

If we having true, saving faith, there should be works to show it

True faith & works go hand in hand

 

[jamesbond007]

Yes, I agree with you. I was just trying to give a quick reference to the other poster.

That's awesome. This isn't an easy lesson as many people want to have it all both on earth and in heaven. Thus, one has to make up their mind to serve Jesus and make him their treasure, not the goal of making lots of money and storing up treasures here. There are those who believe the one who dies with the most toys wins. It means their hearts have love of money and greed inside. Not Jesus. If one has Jesus in their hearts, then good works will follow. It is not a requirement to enter heaven. Good works follows because it is a reward in of itself like Jesus is a treasure in and of by himself. A good tree bears good fruit.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

You Are Saved By God's Grace. God's Grace Through Faith.

Your Works Show Your Faith.



That's the clearest way it can be stated.

 

[St_Worm2]

...Jesus died so that you could be forgiven of your sin. His blood covers your sin; but not so you can keep on willfully sinning once you come to Jesus.

Hi J4CJ, have you actually heard someone make that claim before, that they are Christian, but that as a Christian they believe they can continue to lead the kind of sinful lifestyle they did before they made that claim (or perhaps even a worse one)? I only ask because I've seen warnings like the one you gave us in the OP over and over again on Christian forums for the last 20 years, but I've yet to see anyone actually make that particular claim (IOW, that they can 1. be saved and then 2. do any sinful thing they want to from now to Glory).

Also, while I certainly agree with St. Paul that Jesus died to atone for our sins that we might be justified by God, reconciled to Him and saved from His wrath,

Romans 5
8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

I believe His first purpose in saving us was to break the power of sin in our lives (in the 'here and now'), so that our principle desire becomes seeking to please Him in all the we do/say/think, rather than continuing to live a lifestyle of seeking to please ourselves/our sinful desires. Sadly, our "old self" .. Ephesians 4:22-24 remains ever ready to take the throne of our lives back from us, and we end up committing sins and needing to repent of them again. But the Bible has something to say to those who "claim" to be Christians and yet choose to continue to make a "practice" of sinning/continue to live a sinful "lifestyle" .. e.g. 1 John 3:9, so in that we are certainly in agreement )

Yours and His,
David

 

[Cement]

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
James 2:19-20
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless.
James 2:26
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?

This isn’t to say that our good deeds would be weighed vs our bad deeds. We are justified by Faith in Christ alone. But don’t let anyone fool you. Remember is was Jesus himself that cursed the fig tree that bore no fruit. There is no room for easy belivism in Christianity!

 

[BNR32FAN]

First, let me say that NOBODY can earn salvation apart from Jesus. But, with what Jesus did for us and continues to do for us, how dare us tell God that it isn't good enough. Do people actually think about this when saying things like "nobody's perfect" "we are all just sinners", etc????

So, Jesus died so that you could be forgiven of your sin. His blood covers your sin; but not so you can keep on willfully sinning once you come to Jesus. That doesn't work for God. And, it certainly isn't what He said in Scripture. In fact, Scripture says the opposite. Even people who try to make Paul's message a stand-alone Gospel have to read where Paul said: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." (Rom 8:13) and "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that he shall also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8)

Now let's get past the misuse of the "free gift" concept:

Let's say I get drunk (I don't drink, but let's pretend). Let's say, I kill a pedestrian who did nothing wrong to deserve to be killed. Let's pretend, to make matters worse, that pedestrian was Jesus Christ Himself--who was absolutely free of sin before God. You with me?

So, I get put in jail.

But, when His certified last will and testament are read, He says: "I know that someone is going to kill Me, because they were driving drunk. I refuse to press charges. I want them declared innocent." (now some imagination is required, because Jesus wasn't materialistic; but...) let's say He continues in His will: "Furthermore, I want the one who killed me to be given My car, My house, and all the money I had in My savings."

So, I am released from prison and given His car, His house, and all His money and what He should have had--a FREE life, no longer in bondage to anything. That was what He wanted me to have. That was His GIFT to me. But.....

Let's say I choose to hang out with the wrong people and eventually go back to the alcohol and even add in drugs--because now I have all the money I need and its the "in thing" to do. Suppose I spend everything on the drugs and once addicted mortgage my house to keep my supply coming in or ruin my house because I open the doors to people who don't care to take care of it. Then, to bring it full circle:

I'm out driving drunk (again), total the car, and kill someone in the process,

Was I never given a free gift in the first place OR did I destroy the free gift I was given by my failure to change my lifestyle--after being set free the first time?

If we take God's gift and choose not to repent--but instead choose to continue doing what He freed us from--we are doing worse. We are "trampling underfoot the Son of God." (Heb 10:29). We would be choosing to destroy what He did for us, by choosing to do what glorifies the devil, not God and by choosing to walk in the flesh instead of walking in His Provision--The Holy Spirit! How sad!

Be careful what you believe. It may just cost you your life!

If that should ever happen you should wait 3 days and then appeal the decision in court. Lol

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hi your scenario is pretty sad and the problem with it is we are wanting to have a measure to say who is saved and who is not and we tend to look at the works o meter. Your case there is no works and in fact the opposite which many scriptures warn that those living like that will not inherit the kingdom. The scriptures do declare salvation is by faith and only God knows who has saving faith. in 1 Cor regarding a Christian with no works it says, If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

A good example would be comparing Abraham and Lot. Paul declares Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Then James uses Abraham as the example of being justified by works working with faith when he was to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. But Lot is also declared righteous in 2 Peter and in reality we do not have a recording of any righteous work by Lot.

That doesn’t mean Lot didn’t do good works. It just means they weren’t recorded.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Romans 4 [English Standard Version (ESV)]
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Amen Abraham was saved by his faith and not by his works. But his faith did produce works.

 

[Emli]

Let's not also forget why we do good works. Our good works that the Lord has walked before us to do, that we do in Christ, through Him and for Him, in His power and His leading, as His workmanship, is to His Glory and for His namesake, not just to show our personal faith but to be His light to the world, to spread the Gospel, to serve our neighbours and save the lost, to show the world who God is, and not just so we can earn rewards, even if that reward is being personally close to Christ. Let's not forget who should be the focus here or why we do the works.

 

[Oldmantook]

Hi your scenario is pretty sad and the problem with it is we are wanting to have a measure to say who is saved and who is not and we tend to look at the works o meter. Your case there is no works and in fact the opposite which many scriptures warn that those living like that will not inherit the kingdom. The scriptures do declare salvation is by faith and only God knows who has saving faith. in 1 Cor regarding a Christian with no works it says, If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

A good example would be comparing Abraham and Lot. Paul declares Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Then James uses Abraham as the example of being justified by works working with faith when he was to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. But Lot is also declared righteous in 2 Peter and in reality we do not have a recording of any righteous work by Lot.

Problem with your simplistic argument is Jesus' "works o meter" seems to be working just fine when he judges the 7 churches in Revelation. Evidently, Jesus thinks that works do matter and he judges the churches for their works; or lack thereof. Your argument is that you fail to distinguish between works which we were created to do (Eph 2:10) and justify us resulting in saving faith (Js 2:24) versus those works done in our own strength/flesh and according to the OT Law which account for nothing.

 

[bugkiller]

First, let me say that NOBODY can earn salvation apart from Jesus. But, with what Jesus did for us and continues to do for us, how dare us tell God that it isn't good enough. Do people actually think about this when saying things like "nobody's perfect" "we are all just sinners", etc????

So, Jesus died so that you could be forgiven of your sin. His blood covers your sin; but not so you can keep on willfully sinning once you come to Jesus. That doesn't work for God. And, it certainly isn't what He said in Scripture. In fact, Scripture says the opposite. Even people who try to make Paul's message a stand-alone Gospel have to read where Paul said: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." (Rom 8:13) and "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that he shall also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8)

Now let's get past the misuse of the "free gift" concept:

I agree up to this point.

Let's say I get drunk (I don't drink, but let's pretend). Let's say, I kill a pedestrian who did nothing wrong to deserve to be killed. Let's pretend, to make matters worse, that pedestrian was Jesus Christ Himself--who was absolutely free of sin before God. You with me?

So, I get put in jail.

But, when His certified last will and testament are read, He says: "I know that someone is going to kill Me, because they were driving drunk. I refuse to press charges. I want them declared innocent." (now some imagination is required, because Jesus wasn't materialistic; but...) let's say He continues in His will: "Furthermore, I want the one who killed me to be given My car, My house, and all the money I had in My savings."

So, I am released from prison and given His car, His house, and all His money and what He should have had--a FREE life, no longer in bondage to anything. That was what He wanted me to have. That was His GIFT to me. But.....

Pretty neat.

Let's say I choose to hang out with the wrong people and eventually go back to the alcohol and even add in drugs--because now I have all the money I need and its the "in thing" to do. Suppose I spend everything on the drugs and once addicted mortgage my house to keep my supply coming in or ruin my house because I open the doors to people who don't care to take care of it. Then, to bring it full circle:

I'm out driving drunk (again), total the car, and kill someone in the process,

Was I never given a free gift in the first place OR did I destroy the free gift I was given by my failure to change my lifestyle--after being set free the first time?

If we take God's gift and choose not to repent--but instead choose to continue doing what He freed us from--we are doing worse. We are "trampling underfoot the Son of God." (Heb 10:29). We would be choosing to destroy what He did for us, by choosing to do what glorifies the devil, not God and by choosing to walk in the flesh instead of walking in His Provision--The Holy Spirit! How sad!

Be careful what you believe. It may just cost you your life!

I read you were forgiven. I do not read you repented. Your scenario leads me to believe you think you were indeed rewarded for you wicked past, did not place any value on forgiveness and did not have the brains to understand your previous bad situation and its cause. Since you were rewarded for your bad behavior why not go back to it.

bugkiller

 

[Emli]

I agree up to this point.Pretty neat.I read you were forgiven. I do not read you repented. Your scenario leads me to believe you think you were indeed rewarded for you wicked past, did not place any value on forgiveness and did not have the brains to understand your previous bad situation and its cause. Since you were rewarded for your bad behavior why not go back to it.

bugkiller

Romans 6:1

 

[bugkiller]

Romans 6:1

Great verse, but I do not understand why you posted it. I think you need to read my post very slowly a couple times.

bugkiller

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

First, let me say that NOBODY can earn salvation apart from Jesus. But, with what Jesus did for us and continues to do for us, how dare us tell God that it isn't good enough. Do people actually think about this when saying things like "nobody's perfect" "we are all just sinners", etc????

So, Jesus died so that you could be forgiven of your sin. His blood covers your sin; but not so you can keep on willfully sinning once you come to Jesus. That doesn't work for God. And, it certainly isn't what He said in Scripture. In fact, Scripture says the opposite. Even people who try to make Paul's message a stand-alone Gospel have to read where Paul said: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." (Rom 8:13) and "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that he shall also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8)

Now let's get past the misuse of the "free gift" concept:

Let's say I get drunk (I don't drink, but let's pretend). Let's say, I kill a pedestrian who did nothing wrong to deserve to be killed. Let's pretend, to make matters worse, that pedestrian was Jesus Christ Himself--who was absolutely free of sin before God. You with me?

So, I get put in jail.

But, when His certified last will and testament are read, He says: "I know that someone is going to kill Me, because they were driving drunk. I refuse to press charges. I want them declared innocent." (now some imagination is required, because Jesus wasn't materialistic; but...) let's say He continues in His will: "Furthermore, I want the one who killed me to be given My car, My house, and all the money I had in My savings."

So, I am released from prison and given His car, His house, and all His money and what He should have had--a FREE life, no longer in bondage to anything. That was what He wanted me to have. That was His GIFT to me. But.....

Let's say I choose to hang out with the wrong people and eventually go back to the alcohol and even add in drugs--because now I have all the money I need and its the "in thing" to do. Suppose I spend everything on the drugs and once addicted mortgage my house to keep my supply coming in or ruin my house because I open the doors to people who don't care to take care of it. Then, to bring it full circle:

I'm out driving drunk (again), total the car, and kill someone in the process,

Was I never given a free gift in the first place OR did I destroy the free gift I was given by my failure to change my lifestyle--after being set free the first time?

If we take God's gift and choose not to repent--but instead choose to continue doing what He freed us from--we are doing worse. We are "trampling underfoot the Son of God." (Heb 10:29). We would be choosing to destroy what He did for us, by choosing to do what glorifies the devil, not God and by choosing to walk in the flesh instead of walking in His Provision--The Holy Spirit! How sad!

Be careful what you believe. It may just cost you your life!

Totally false. You have just thrown Jesus and Paul's teaching of grace not law, not works into the trash. It is a free gift just like God said. And if a person lives in sin then you will loose out on God's blessing in this life, but never loose their salvation.

My trust is in Jesus alone and nothing else. If I do works it has nothing to do with feeling obligated. If I do any good its because of God in me and His leading. But if not, then eternal life remains eternal life.