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Featured The UnScriptural concept of "no works"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First, let me say that NOBODY can earn salvation apart from Jesus. But, with what Jesus did for us and continues to do for us, how dare us tell God that it isn't good enough. Do people actually think about this when saying things like "nobody's perfect" "we are all just sinners", etc????

    So, Jesus died so that you could be forgiven of your sin. His blood covers your sin; but not so you can keep on willfully sinning once you come to Jesus. That doesn't work for God. And, it certainly isn't what He said in Scripture. In fact, Scripture says the opposite. Even people who try to make Paul's message a stand-alone Gospel have to read where Paul said: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." (Rom 8:13) and "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that he shall also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8)

    Now let's get past the misuse of the "free gift" concept:

    Let's say I get drunk (I don't drink, but let's pretend). Let's say, I kill a pedestrian who did nothing wrong to deserve to be killed. Let's pretend, to make matters worse, that pedestrian was Jesus Christ Himself--who was absolutely free of sin before God. You with me?

    So, I get put in jail.

    But, when His certified last will and testament are read, He says: "I know that someone is going to kill Me, because they were driving drunk. I refuse to press charges. I want them declared innocent." (now some imagination is required, because Jesus wasn't materialistic; but...) let's say He continues in His will: "Furthermore, I want the one who killed me to be given My car, My house, and all the money I had in My savings."

    So, I am released from prison and given His car, His house, and all His money and what He should have had--a FREE life, no longer in bondage to anything. That was what He wanted me to have. That was His GIFT to me. But.....

    Let's say I choose to hang out with the wrong people and eventually go back to the alcohol and even add in drugs--because now I have all the money I need and its the "in thing" to do. Suppose I spend everything on the drugs and once addicted mortgage my house to keep my supply coming in or ruin my house because I open the doors to people who don't care to take care of it. Then, to bring it full circle:

    I'm out driving drunk (again), total the car, and kill someone in the process,

    Was I never given a free gift in the first place OR did I destroy the free gift I was given by my failure to change my lifestyle--after being set free the first time?

    If we take God's gift and choose not to repent--but instead choose to continue doing what He freed us from--we are doing worse. We are "trampling underfoot the Son of God." (Heb 10:29). We would be choosing to destroy what He did for us, by choosing to do what glorifies the devil, not God and by choosing to walk in the flesh instead of walking in His Provision--The Holy Spirit! How sad!

    Be careful what you believe. It may just cost you your life!
     
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  2. Emli

    Emli Growing daughter of God Supporter

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    Amen!

    God's gift of salvation isn't unconditional, and God never said it is. It is a covenant, and He has told us to be faithful to Him. He expects us to repent and be baptized (die to sin, not just go through a ritual), then He transforms us, renews us and commands us to walk like Christ, led by the Holy Spirit. To worship Him in Spirit and in truth, and not keep living according to our old ways. We are cleansed and sanctified, we become temples of the Holy Spirit, and we are told to make a complete change and not look back. Take up our crosses and crucify the flesh, suffer like Christ and do the works that He did and has also commanded us to do.

    There are a lot of teachings that tell us differently, but anyone who preaches anything contrary to what Christ Himself has taught us are false teachers and not of God, because they are denying the Lord that bought them, by denying His commandments.
     
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  3. Southernscotty

    Southernscotty Well-Known Member Angels Team Supporter

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    Well, I was typing almost the same thing as Emily above so I will just stop and say AMEN. :]
     
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  4. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi your scenario is pretty sad and the problem with it is we are wanting to have a measure to say who is saved and who is not and we tend to look at the works o meter. Your case there is no works and in fact the opposite which many scriptures warn that those living like that will not inherit the kingdom. The scriptures do declare salvation is by faith and only God knows who has saving faith. in 1 Cor regarding a Christian with no works it says, If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

    A good example would be comparing Abraham and Lot. Paul declares Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Then James uses Abraham as the example of being justified by works working with faith when he was to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. But Lot is also declared righteous in 2 Peter and in reality we do not have a recording of any righteous work by Lot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  5. Emli

    Emli Growing daughter of God Supporter

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    God is with us! Praise Him for giving us the words to speak. :clap:
     
  6. CallofChrist

    CallofChrist Blessed Supporter

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    Romans 4 [English Standard Version (ESV)]
    Abraham Justified by Faith
    4 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

    7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
    and whose sins are covered;
    8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
     
  7. Emli

    Emli Growing daughter of God Supporter

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    We have been given ways to discern who is of God or not.

    We can't look at the works as a measurement, because Matthew 7:21-23, but we are told to look at their fruit. Matthew 7:15-20. Fruit of the Holy Spirit and works are two very different things. Galatians 5:17-22
     
  8. Southernscotty

    Southernscotty Well-Known Member Angels Team Supporter

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    Amen Sister :]
     
  9. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree with these Scriptures and I love Abraham. What an incredible life of faith.

    You do realize you are talking about the guy (Abraham) that is called the Father of our faith and who was willing to be obedient to God out of that BELIEF/FAITH in Him--to the point of walking away from everything he had known, sending away a son he loved, and going through the motions of actually almost killing the one that God said would be his heir in FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE to God, right? Also, there are many other places in the New Testament where "father Abraham" is brought up, right? (See Hebrews and James, for example). But, let's just stick with Paul. So, do you think that the discussion that involved Romans 8:13 and the Romans 4 discussion of Abraham aren't consistent? As I understand the two, they are in perfect unity. Better yet, my understanding is also consistent with what Jesus said in John 14:15: "If you love me, keep my commands" and John 14:23: "If a man love Me, he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and we will come into him, and make Our abode with him." Jesus also said" If you keep my commandments, you shall abide (remain) in my love...." (John 15:10) Which brings me back to what Paul wrote in Romans 8:13: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live."

    Be careful not to confuse the works of the Mosaic Law with the good works that should come out of a truly regenerated heart. Romans 8:13 and Gal 6:7-8 are not inconsistent with 1 Cor 1 in my book, but you offer them up as inconsistent in your book; so how do you deal with what you see as Paul's inconsistency?
     
  10. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Also, if you don't do good works then you won't have any treasures / reward in Heaven.

    I think sometimes people confuse "Repentance from Sin" with "Doing Good Works". If you don't repent from sin then you will Not inherit the kingdom of God. If you don't do good works then you won't have any rewards or treasure in Heaven.
     
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  11. CallofChrist

    CallofChrist Blessed Supporter

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    I don't think we have a case of "dueling scriptures". One can understand the need to do works as given by our Lord and not rely on them for our salvation.... there is perfect harmony.
     
  12. CallofChrist

    CallofChrist Blessed Supporter

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    Ephesians 2:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Your analogy does not work because it supposes a gift of money from God. It is not analogous to being given the gift of Faith.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
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  14. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps this is just semantics, but this is not an accurate statement. One cannot earn salvation, period. A dead person can do nothing before God to make himself righteous before God.
    This analogy is missing some very key elements and falls apart. Before God's grace transforms a person heart by the work of the Holy Spirit, that person is enslaved to sin. After the transforming work of God and His grace, he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is freed from the bondage of sin. They become dead to sin and alive in Christ. They no longer love sin and hate God, now they hate sin and love God. Does this mean a Christian never sins? No.

    Moreover, Jesus did not come to just give you an easy life of wealth and ease so that you can go on sinning. If a person makes a habitual, lifelong practice of sin, they are demonstrating that they do not have the good fruit of the Holy Spirit working in them. If a person makes a practice of sin, the Bible grants no assurance that they are saved.

    Also, salvation is not based in our performance or our changing our lifestyle. If one is saved by God's grace, they are now able to be obedient to God and they want to obey God. They do not do it perfectly, because that is the work of God's sanctification.

    Repentance is a gift from God. It is not something we choose to do, in and of ourselves. If God's grace is at work in the heart, the believer in Jesus Christ will repent of sin, as a demonstration of God's grace. It is not something that is chosen to do in the believer.
     
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  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Being saved through faith leads one to doing good works.
    But it doesn't work the other way around.
    Effort or works leads one no closer to saving faith.
     
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  16. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I cannot feature how simply being in heaven is not quite a treasure to experience.
     
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  17. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh, Absolutely I agree with you.

    I'm just referring to when Jesus says, "Store up for yourself treasures in Heaven" and "I will give to every man according to his works".
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Understood. However, there is a difference between thinking that salvation is at least partially acquired by way of performing good works and, OTOH, the promise that those who are saved by Faith will experience additional rewards in heaven in accordance with the works they did as disciples. A lot of people do not or cannot keep those two separate.
     
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  19. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    I was expecting to hear about why good works are an integral part of demonstrating that we are saved. But your OP is about people being unrighteous after claiming to be saved. Two different things.

    There is a connection between salvation by grace through faith, and the good works which should follow:

    EPHESIANS 2
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    So anyone who claims that he is saved and has produced absolutely no good works is simply self-deceived. The epistle of James deals with this issue.

    Also, as per the OP, if anyone claims that he is saved and lives like the devil, he is simply fooling himself.

     
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  20. Tayla

    Tayla Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes of course. But works have a key role. (James 2:24) Salvation requires repentance, which refers to sin, which means works. You don't sin until you do something.
     
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