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The universe with no need of God

Hoghead1

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Galileo wasn't declared a heretic, ever. He was placed under house arrest, allowed the sacraments until his death, which a heretic could not do.
From Wiki, which is pretty accurate in this case:
Copernicus' De revolutionibus had been published twenty years before Galileo's birth, and while heliocentrism was condemned by Protestant leaders Luther, Calvin and Melanchthon, the Catholic church was more open to the idea. Copernicus had dedicated his book to Pope Paul III, and it inspired very little debate regarding its relation to Christian dogma or scripture over the next sixty years. There was no institutional Catholic opposition to heliocentrism, and Copernicus' work was even used for the Gregorian calendar reform of 1582.[60] However, the heliocentric view was slow to be adopted by the educated public of the time, who mostly adhered to either to the Aristotelian geocentric view that the earth was the center of the universe and that all heavenly bodies revolved around the Earth,[61] or the Tychonic system that blended geocentricsm with heliocentrism.[62]

Galileo defended heliocentrism based on his astronomical observations of 1609 (Sidereus Nuncius 1610). In December 1613 the Grand Duchess Christina of Florence confronted one of Galileo's friends and followers,Benedetto Castelli, with biblical objections to the motion of the earth. According to Maurice Finocchiaro this was done in a friendly and gracious manner, out of curiosity. Prompted by this incident, Galileo wrote a letter to Castelli in which he argued that heliocentrism was actually not contrary to biblical texts, and that the bible was an authority on faith and morals, not on science. This letter was not published, but circulated widely.[63]

By 1615 Galileo's writings on heliocentrism had been submitted to the Roman Inquisition by Father Niccolo Lorini, who claimed that Galileo and his followers were attempting to reinterpret the Bible, which was seen as a violation of the Council of Trent and looked dangerously like Protestantism.[64] Lorini specifically cited Galileo's letter to Castelli.[65] Galileo went to Rome to defend himself and his Copernican and biblical ideas. At the start of 1616, Monsignor Francesco Ingoli initiated a debate with Galileo, sending him an essay disputing the Copernican system. Galileo later stated that he believed this essay to have been instrumental in the action against Copernicanism that followed.[66] According to Maurice Finocchiaro, Ingoli had probably been commissioned by the Inquisition to write an expert opinion on the controversy, and the essay provided the "chief direct basis" for the Inquisition's actions.[67] The essay focused on eighteen physical and mathematical arguments against heliocentrism. It borrowed primarily from the arguments of Tycho Brahe, and it notedly mentioned Brahe's argument that heliocentrism required the stars to be much larger than the Sun. Ingoli wrote that the great distance to the stars in the heliocentric theory "clearly proves ... the fixed stars to be of such size, as they may surpass or equal the size of the orbit circle of the Earth itself."[68] The essay also included four theological arguments, but Ingoli suggested Galileo focus on the physical and mathematical arguments, and he did not mention Galileo's biblical ideas.[69] In February 1616, an Inquisitorial commission declared heliocentrism to be "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture." The Inquisition found that the idea of the Earth's movement "receives the same judgement in philosophy and... in regard to theological truth it is at least erroneous in faith".[70] (The original document from the Inquisitorial commission was made widely available in 2014.[71])

Pope Paul V instructed Cardinal Bellarmine to deliver this finding to Galileo, and to order him to abandon the opinion that heliocentrism was physically true. On 26 February, Galileo was called to Bellarmine's residence and ordered:

... to abandon completely... the opinion that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any way whatever, either orally or in writing.[72]

The decree of the Congregation of the Index banned Copernicus's De Revolutionibus and other heliocentric works until correction.[72] Bellarmine's instructions did not prohibit Galileo from discussing heliocentrism as a mathematical and philosophic idea, so long as he did not advocate for its physical truth.[8][73]

For the next decade, Galileo stayed well away from the controversy. He revived his project of writing a book on the subject, encouraged by the election of Cardinal Maffeo Barberini as Pope Urban VIII in 1623. Barberini was a friend and admirer of Galileo, and had opposed the condemnation of Galileo in 1616. Galileo's resulting book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was published in 1632, with formal authorization from the Inquisition and papal permission.[74]

Earlier, Pope Urban VIII had personally asked Galileo to give arguments for and against heliocentrism in the book, and to be careful not to advocate heliocentrism. He made another request, that his own views on the matter be included in Galileo's book. Only the latter of those requests was fulfilled by Galileo.

Whether unknowingly or deliberately, Simplicio, the defender of the Aristotelian geocentric view in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was often caught in his own errors and sometimes came across as a fool. Indeed, although Galileo states in the preface of his book that the character is named after a famous Aristotelian philosopher (Simplicius in Latin, Simplicio in Italian), the name "Simplicio" in Italian also has the connotation of "simpleton".[75] This portrayal of Simplicio made Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems appear as an advocacy book: an attack on Aristotelian geocentrism and defence of the Copernican theory. Unfortunately for his relationship with the Pope, Galileo put the words of Urban VIII into the mouth of Simplicio.

Most historians agree Galileo did not act out of malice and felt blindsided by the reaction to his book.[76] However, the Pope did not take the suspected public ridicule lightly, nor the Copernican advocacy.

Galileo had alienated one of his biggest and most powerful supporters, the Pope, and was called to Rome to defend his writings[77] in September 1632. He finally arrived in February 1633 and was brought before inquisitor Vincenzo Maculani to be charged. Throughout his trial Galileo steadfastly maintained that since 1616 he had faithfully kept his promise not to hold any of the condemned opinions, and initially he denied even defending them. However, he was eventually persuaded to admit that, contrary to his true intention, a reader of his Dialogue could well have obtained the impression that it was intended to be a defence of Copernicanism. In view of Galileo's rather implausible denial that he had ever held Copernican ideas after 1616 or ever intended to defend them in theDialogue, his final interrogation, in July 1633, concluded with his being threatened with torture if he did not tell the truth, but he maintained his denial despite the threat.[78]

The sentence of the Inquisition was delivered on 22 June. It was in three essential parts:

  • Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[79]
  • He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[80] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
  • His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[81]
If Galileo could physically prove that heliocentrism was true, he would not have been condemned.

Regarding evolution, where did I ever say it's not Christian? I believe it to be true. Darwin's theory didn't take God into account, though, in my opinion.
Look, I'm already aware of al this. What is your point in bringing al this up? Yes, Galileo was declared a heretic. Yes, he did prove heliocentrism. But the church wasn't interested in science. Yes, he demonstrated that the moon has big holes on it, same with the sun and sun spots. However, the church refused to believe that, as it contradicted Aristotle's claim that the heavens were perfect. Scie4ncitif evidence had nothing to do with it.
Darwin, as you probably know, was not an atheist, probably would have become a country parson, had he not gone on the Beagle. He mentions God nine times in his "Origin." So how do you see it that he didn't take God into account?
 
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Hoghead1

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You're absolutely wrong about that. Galileo was harassed because he taught as fact something he hadn't the tools to prove, and obstinately chose to keep on doing so. The heliocentric theory was first proposed by a Catholic scientist-Copernicus, along with Kepler, who was also Christian. The "Christian worldview of evolution" isn't. Some Christians believe in evolution, some don't. What we rail against is any explanation of how we got here that excludes God.

It's very telling that you, and anyone else who claims to be interested in the Truth, stops reading half way through an article, or will not concede any majority-held idea, such as "the absolute obligated to be and do good", which is observable. Someone said "generally" instead of "absolutely" because there are sociopaths who don't do and be good, but even that is arguing to the exceptions. There ARE exceptions, yet the truth remains-we are obligated to be and do good, and that obligation can only come from God.
But Galileo did have the tools. What makes you think he didn't? Also, you forgot to mention that Darwin was also Christian. In fact, he would have been ordained as a country preacher, had he not gone on the Beagle.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Look, I'm already aware of al this. What is your point in bringing al this up? Yes, Galileo was declared a heretic.
No, he wasn't.
Yes, he did prove heliocentrism.
No, he didn't. If he did, there would have been other issues to deal with.
But the church wasn't interested in science.
Is that why the Jesuit order has, since its inception, been mostly scientists?
Yes, he demonstrated that the moon has big holes on it, same with the sun and sun spots. However, the church refused to believe that, as it contradicted Aristotle's claim that the heavens were perfect. Scie4ncitif evidence had nothing to do with it.
Baloney.
Darwin, as you probably know, was not an atheist, probably would have become a country parson, had he not gone on the Beagle. He mentions God nine times in his "Origin." So how do you see it that he didn't take God into account?
So what? I know lots of priests who decide not to become priests, and even become atheists.
 
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Davian

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Perhaps, but he couldn't prove it.
I don't know what you mean by this. He had proof - evidence - in the form of astronomical observations. Could he "prove" it, as an absolute? Of course not - he was doing science.

Even in this day and age, scientists still cannot "prove" that the Earth orbits the Sun, absolutely.
The point being that while some, especially Protestants, thought heliocentrism contradicted Scripture, Catholics such as Copernicus and Galileo didn't.
I still do not see why you are stressing their religious beliefs. Are you implying that, for those individuals in question, religious belief took precedent over observations of reality?
Yes, and I've said repeatedly that I believe in evolution, but not Darwinism.
I have no idea what you mean by "evolution", when 'Darwinism' is a 150 years ago, and evolutionary theory makes no allowances for a literal/historical Adam and Eve. Could you elucidate?
Blah, blah, blah.
I would think the morally correct thing to do would be to acknowledge where you are wrong where you claimed an absolute, and then conceded exceptions to it.
 
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Hoghead1

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No, he wasn't. No, he didn't. If he did, there would have been other issues to deal with.Is that why the Jesuit order has, since its inception, been mostly scientists?Baloney.
So what? I know lots of priests who decide not to become priests, and even become atheists.
I suggest you restudy matters here.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I suggest you restudy matters here.
I study it quite frequently, and it doesn't change the fact that you're wrong about Galileo.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I don't know what you mean by this. He had proof - evidence - in the form of astronomical observations. Could he "prove" it, as an absolute? Of course not - he was doing science.
At the very least, he couldn't prove it to the powers that be, and they insisted that he stop teaching it as fact. Which he didn't do.
Even in this day and age, scientists still cannot "prove" that the Earth orbits the Sun, absolutely.
And yet the powers that be, the general consensus, does believe it. That's what I mean by proof. He couldn't answer their objections.
I still do not see why you are stressing their religious beliefs. Are you implying that, for those individuals in question, religious belief took precedent over observations of reality?
Because you keep saying that Christians believe in a young Earth, when most don't. Some people do believe that evolution contradicts the Bible and reject it out of hand. But not all, or even most.
I have no idea what you mean by "evolution", when 'Darwinism' is a 150 years ago, and evolutionary theory makes no allowances for a literal/historical Adam and Eve. Could you elucidate?
  • The question of the origin of man's body from pre-existing and living matter is a legitimate matter of inquiry for natural science. Catholics are free to form their own opinions, but they should do so cautiously; they should not confuse fact with conjecture, and they should respect the Church's right to define matters touching on Revelation.
  • Catholics must believe, however, that humans have souls created immediately by God. Since the soul is a spiritual substance it is not brought into being through transformation of matter, but directly by God, whence the special uniqueness of each person.
  • All men have descended from an individual, Adam, who has transmitted original sin to all mankind. Catholics may not, therefore, believe in "polygenism", the scientific hypothesis that mankind descended from a group of original humans (that there were many Adams and Eves).

I would think the morally correct thing to do would be to acknowledge where you are wrong where you claimed an absolute, and then conceded exceptions to it.[/QUOTE] If I thought I was wrong, I'd say so and apologize.
 
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Davian

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At the very least, he couldn't prove it to the powers that be, and they insisted that he stop teaching it as fact.
So you do concede that he had evidence for his claim.
Which he didn't do.
Sure, but that is a secondary issue.
And yet the powers that be, the general consensus, does believe it.
You mean, the general consensus of the time was that the Sun went around the Earth.
That's what I mean by proof. He couldn't answer their objections.
Not to their satisfaction. It may have been that those he was attempting to convince were of the type that allowed their religion to inform their science.
Because you keep saying that Christians believe in a young Earth, when most don't.
No, I simply use that description as a place-holder, in the absence of a testable, falsifiable definition for what is meant by "God" in a specific context.
Some people do believe that evolution contradicts the Bible and reject it out of hand. But not all, or even most.
You will need to be clear by what you mean each time by that word if you are not specifically referring to evolutionary theory (UCA, etc).
  • The question of the origin of man's body from pre-existing and living matter is a legitimate matter of inquiry for natural science. Catholics are free to form their own opinions, but they should do so cautiously; they should not confuse fact with conjecture, and they should respect the Church's right to define matters touching on Revelation.
  • Catholics must believe, however, that humans have souls created immediately by God. Since the soul is a spiritual substance it is not brought into being through transformation of matter, but directly by God, whence the special uniqueness of each person.
  • All men have descended from an individual, Adam, who has transmitted original sin to all mankind. Catholics may not, therefore, believe in "polygenism", the scientific hypothesis that mankind descended from a group of original humans (that there were many Adams and Eves).
It is clear by this that you are allowing your religion to inform your science, your previous statements to the contrary notwithstanding.
Davian: I would think the morally correct thing to do would be to acknowledge where you are wrong where you claimed an absolute, and then conceded exceptions to it.
If I thought I was wrong, I'd say so and apologize.
lol. So you are okay with absolutes having exceptions, rather than admit to being wrong?
 
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Root of Jesse

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So you do concede that he had evidence for his claim.
Do you believe that evidence and proof are the same thing?
Sure, but that is a secondary issue.
It is precisely why the Church condemned him.
You mean, the general consensus of the time was that the Sun went around the Earth.
OK.
Not to their satisfaction. It may have been that those he was attempting to convince were of the type that allowed their religion to inform their science.
Not so. They were wide open to science. But it could not contradict the Bible, and as we made better instruments, we see that it doesn't.
No, I simply use that description as a place-holder, in the absence of a testable, falsifiable definition for what is meant by "God" in a specific context.
But I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about the belief of most Christians, which is not YECreationism.
You will need to be clear by what you mean each time by that word if you are not specifically referring to evolutionary theory (UCA, etc).
Why?
It is clear by this that you are allowing your religion to inform your science, your previous statements to the contrary notwithstanding.
No, I would say it's the other way around. Religion is more important than science, so my science informs my religion.
lol. So you are okay with absolutes having exceptions, rather than admit to being wrong?
There are exceptions to everything regarding humans, regarding most science. The exception, oddly enough, would be universal truth.
 
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Davian

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Do you believe that evidence and proof are the same thing?
Words are defined by how we use them.

proof |pro͞of| noun; 1) evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

Hence the manner in which I have used the word in this thread; science still cannot prove (as an absolute) that the Earth orbits the Sun, but it can offer proof (repeatable, testable, independently verifiable evidence in the form of astronomical observations).
It is precisely why the Church condemned him.
We all make mistakes. I heard they have since back-pedalled.
OK.

Not so. They were wide open to science.
That is not how you have made it sound.
But it could not contradict the Bible,
Or, their particular interpretation of the bible. But, as we have seen, interpretations change.
and as we made better instruments, we see that it doesn't.
Better instruments did not falsify Galileo's science; are you referring to instruments used to examine the Bible?
But I'm not talking about God.
Your 'God', your religion, your theology. It's all the same from way over here.
I'm talking about the belief of most Christians, which is not YECreationism.
Other than timescales, you have not really said anything to differentiate yourself from them.
Because you are not being clear of what you actually mean when you say "evolution". If you are not speaking specifically of the science of modern evolutionary theory, then you need to be explicit of what you reject; most of it, if you need a literal Adam and Eve, and a biblical global flood of some sort.
No, I would say it's the other way around. Religion is more important than science, so my science informs my religion.
Yet you made it clear in post #147 of what Catholics must believe, confirming that your religion is informing your science. You are contradicting yourself.
There are exceptions to everything regarding humans, regarding most science. The exception, oddly enough, would be universal truth.
Absolutes, by definition, do not have exceptions. That is what differentiates them from things that are not absolute. It would seem that you are okay with absolutes having exceptions, rather than to admit to being wrong. ^_^
 
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Root of Jesse

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Words are defined by how we use them.

proof |pro͞of| noun; 1) evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

Hence the manner in which I have used the word in this thread; science still cannot prove (as an absolute) that the Earth orbits the Sun, but it can offer proof (repeatable, testable, independently verifiable evidence in the form of astronomical observations).
So proof and evidence are different. Thanks.
We all make mistakes. I heard they have since back-pedalled.
Actually, not at all. They apologized for any treatment they may have been guilty of, and removed his books from the List of Condemned Books, but they were right-he didn't have proof by the standards of the day.
That is not how you have made it sound.
If you care to look, it was more likely the Protestant Reformation folks that insisted on geocentrism.
Or, their particular interpretation of the bible. But, as we have seen, interpretations change.
Understanding changes, for sure, in light of new evidence. But it was Aristotle who disproved heliocentrism, and it was his claim that Galileo could not overcome.
Better instruments did not falsify Galileo's science; are you referring to instruments used to examine the Bible?
Many people wrongly believe Galileo proved heliocentricity. He could not answer the strongest argument against it, which had been made nearly two thousand years earlier by Aristotle: If heliocentrism were true, then there would be observable parallax shifts in the stars’ positions as the earth moved in its orbit around the sun. However, given the technology of Galileo’s time, no such shifts in their positions could be observed. It would require more sensitive measuring equipment than was available in Galileo’s day to document the existence of these shifts, given the stars’ great distance. Until then, the available evidence suggested that the stars were fixed in their positions relative to the earth, and, thus, that the earth and the stars were not moving in space—only the sun, moon, and planets were.

Thus Galileo did not prove the theory by the Aristotelian standards of science in his day. In his Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina and other documents, Galileo claimed that the Copernican theory had the "sensible demonstrations" needed according to Aristotelian science, but most knew that such demonstrations were not yet forthcoming. Most astronomers in that day were not convinced of the great distance of the stars that the Copernican theory required to account for the absence of observable parallax shifts. This is one of the main reasons why the respected astronomer Tycho Brahe refused to adopt Copernicus fully.
Your 'God', your religion, your theology. It's all the same from way over here.
You say so.
Other than timescales, you have not really said anything to differentiate yourself from them.
If I was trying to differentiate myself from anyone, I wouldn't be here.
Because you are not being clear of what you actually mean when you say "evolution". If you are not speaking specifically of the science of modern evolutionary theory, then you need to be explicit of what you reject; most of it, if you need a literal Adam and Eve, and a biblical global flood of some sort.
People usually take three basic positions on the origins of the cosmos, life, and man: (1) special or instantaneous creation, (2) developmental creation or theistic evolution, (3) and atheistic evolution. The first holds that a given thing did not develop, but was instantaneously and directly created by God. The second position holds that a given thing did develop from a previous state or form, but that this process was under God’s guidance. The third position claims that a thing developed due to random forces alone.

Related to the question of how the universe, life, and man arose is the question of when they arose. Those who attribute the origin of all three to special creation often hold that they arose at about the same time, perhaps six thousand to ten thousand years ago. Those who attribute all three to atheistic evolution have a much longer time scale. They generally hold the universe to be ten billion to twenty billion years old, life on earth to be about four billion years old, and modern man (the subspecies homo sapiens) to be about thirty thousand years old. Those who believe in varieties of developmental creation hold dates used by either or both of the other two positions.

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

Yet you made it clear in post #147 of what Catholics must believe, confirming that your religion is informing your science. You are contradicting yourself.
No, I'm not. Where science is right, I let them be right, where science is wrong, I let them be wrong. My religion is never wrong, in matters of faith and morals.
Absolutes, by definition, do not have exceptions. That is what differentiates them from things that are not absolute. It would seem that you are okay with absolutes having exceptions, rather than to admit to being wrong. ^_^
In humans, there are no absolutes. ^_^
 
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Davian

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So proof and evidence are different. Thanks.
...as well as interchangeable, depending on context. You are welcome.
Actually, not at all. They apologized for any treatment they may have been guilty of, and removed his books from the List of Condemned Books, but they were right-he didn't have proof by the standards of the day.
No, I was referring to them being wrong about the Sun and the rest of the Cosmos orbiting the Earth, and having since changed their position on that. What he didn't have was sufficient evidence to sway the minds of those that let their religion inform their science.
If you care to look, it was more likely the Protestant Reformation folks that insisted on geocentrism.
From way over here, you guys are all on the same team.
Understanding changes, for sure, in light of new evidence. But it was Aristotle who disproved heliocentrism,
Actually, he did not; what he postulated was criteria by which a heliocentric model could be tested, based on a [faulty] assumption that parallax could be measured with the technology of the times, based on [faulty] assumption of the distance from the Earth to the nearest stars, in the absence of observations such as those provide by the likes of Galileo's telescope.
and it was his claim that Galileo could not overcome.
Certainly not with those that let their religion inform their science.
Many people wrongly believe Galileo proved heliocentricity.
In the sense that his astronomical observations showed that the visible planets orbited the Sun, he did provide evidence. Even today, scientists cannot prove absolutely that the Earth orbits the Sun. Do we not have some self-identified Christians in the Physical and Life Sciences forum that still adhere to a flat Earth and geocentrism?
He could not answer the strongest argument against it, which had been made nearly two thousand years earlier by Aristotle: If heliocentrism were true, then there would be observable parallax shifts in the stars’ positions as the earth moved in its orbit around the sun. However, given the technology of Galileo’s time, no such shifts in their positions could be observed. It would require more sensitive measuring equipment than was available in Galileo’s day to document the existence of these shifts, given the stars’ great distance. Until then, the available evidence suggested that the stars were fixed in their positions relative to the earth, and, thus, that the earth and the stars were not moving in space—only the sun, moon, and planets were.
Indeed, suggested, but was not incompatible with Galileo's' observations, if one simply posited that the stars were too far away to produce a detectable parallax with the technology of the time.
Thus Galileo did not prove the theory by the Aristotelian standards of science in his day.
Which simply begs the question: if Aristotle had been privy to Galileo's observations, would he have taken the position he did on geocentrism?

A bit of trivia: Did you know that Aristotle had naturalistic view of origins? If only he had the observations of Darwin to work with in his time.

"The question of origins has always fascinated the human mind. From the earliest times, the existence of life has mostly been attributed to supernatural intervention. However, naturalistic models of origins based on logic and philosophy can be traced to about the fifth century BC in Greece. Plato (428-348 BC) and Aristotle (384-322 BC) were the philosophers that probably had the greatest impact on western thought. Their idealistic view of striving for perfection laid the foundations for a naturalistic view of origins."

The Rise of Evolutionary Thinking | Plato, Aristotle, Charles Darwin | Naturalistic view of Origins
In his Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina and other documents, Galileo claimed that the Copernican theory had the "sensible demonstrations" needed according to Aristotelian science, but most knew that such demonstrations were not yet forthcoming. Most astronomers in that day were not convinced of the great distance of the stars that the Copernican theory required to account for the absence of observable parallax shifts. This is one of the main reasons why the respected astronomer Tycho Brahe refused to adopt Copernicus fully.
<citation missing>

From a citation on Wiki: According to Tycho, the idea of a rotating and revolving Earth would be "in violation not only of all physical truth but also of the authority of Holy Scripture, which ought to be paramount."[61]

Clearly another individual that let his religious beliefs inform his science.
You say so.

If I was trying to differentiate myself from anyone, I wouldn't be here.
Says the guy who just threw the Protestant Reformation folks under the bus. ^_^
People usually take three basic positions on the origins of the cosmos, life, and man: (1) special or instantaneous creation, (2) developmental creation or theistic evolution, (3) and atheistic evolution. The first holds that a given thing did not develop, but was instantaneously and directly created by God. The second position holds that a given thing did develop from a previous state or form, but that this process was under God’s guidance.
this is very vague. Does this position necessarily dictate a literal Adam and Eve, a global flood etc, or can one accept evolutionary science?
The third position claims that a thing developed due to random forces alone.
That would not describe my position. I am not aware of anyone that hold that position.

Do you allow for the possibility of other options?
Related to the question of how the universe, life, and man arose is the question of when they arose. Those who attribute the origin of all three to special creation often hold that they arose at about the same time, perhaps six thousand to ten thousand years ago. Those who attribute all three to atheistic evolution have a much longer time scale. They generally hold the universe to be ten billion to twenty billion years old, life on earth to be about four billion years old, and modern man (the subspecies homo sapiens) to be about thirty thousand years old. Those who believe in varieties of developmental creation hold dates used by either or both of the other two positions.

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions,
Hence my request for clarity each time you use the word "evolution". I really do not know that you mean by that if it bears little resemblance to the scientific theory.
it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.
I don't even accept that myself, in the manner that you have described it.
No, I'm not. Where science is right, I let them be right, where science is wrong, I let them be wrong.
So you cherry-pick, based on what works - or not - with your religion. "Wrong" is what doesn't work.
My religion is never wrong, in matters of faith and morals.
Of course. A position that every religionist can hold in regards to their own particular religion. ;)
In humans, there are no absolutes. ^_^
Is this you retracting your earlier statement "that everyone in the world knows, deep down, that he is absolutely obligated to be and do good."? ;)
 
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Root of Jesse

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...as well as interchangeable, depending on context. You are welcome.

No, I was referring to them being wrong about the Sun and the rest of the Cosmos orbiting the Earth, and having since changed their position on that. What he didn't have was sufficient evidence to sway the minds of those that let their religion inform their science.
The Catholic Church didn't have a problem with a theory of heliocentrism. It was Protestants who did.
From way over here, you guys are all on the same team.
Sorry you can't tell the difference. Makes me wonder what you can differentiate.
Actually, he did not; what he postulated was criteria by which a heliocentric model could be tested, based on a [faulty] assumption that parallax could be measured with the technology of the times, based on [faulty] assumption of the distance from the Earth to the nearest stars, in the absence of observations such as those provide by the likes of Galileo's telescope.
Galileo's telescope couldn't prove any parallax shift.
Certainly not with those that let their religion inform their science.
Right. The Protestants.
In the sense that his astronomical observations showed that the visible planets orbited the Sun, he did provide evidence. Even today, scientists cannot prove absolutely that the Earth orbits the Sun. Do we not have some self-identified Christians in the Physical and Life Sciences forum that still adhere to a flat Earth and geocentrism?
The Church told him he was free to present it as theory, but to stop calling it fact. As you point out, we cannot absolutely prove it. Galileo was stubborn and went on with his agenda.
Indeed, suggested, but was not incompatible with Galileo's' observations, if one simply posited that the stars were too far away to produce a detectable parallax with the technology of the time.
Which simply begs the question: if Aristotle had been privy to Galileo's observations, would he have taken the position he did on geocentrism?
We'll never know. But Galileo and other scientists who were all Catholic, believed heliocentrism, but because of Catholic-Protestant tensions, were afraid to publish them. They didn't want to alienate part of their audience.
A bit of trivia: Did you know that Aristotle had naturalistic view of origins? If only he had the observations of Darwin to work with in his time.

"The question of origins has always fascinated the human mind. From the earliest times, the existence of life has mostly been attributed to supernatural intervention. However, naturalistic models of origins based on logic and philosophy can be traced to about the fifth century BC in Greece. Plato (428-348 BC) and Aristotle (384-322 BC) were the philosophers that probably had the greatest impact on western thought. Their idealistic view of striving for perfection laid the foundations for a naturalistic view of origins."

The Rise of Evolutionary Thinking | Plato, Aristotle, Charles Darwin | Naturalistic view of Origins

<citation missing>

From a citation on Wiki: According to Tycho, the idea of a rotating and revolving Earth would be "in violation not only of all physical truth but also of the authority of Holy Scripture, which ought to be paramount."[61]

Clearly another individual that let his religious beliefs inform his science.
Yep. A Protestant. The only time Catholics have a problem with science is when it spills over into religion. Bit of trivia for you: Did you know the Catholic Church invented the overhead cam?
Says the guy who just threw the Protestant Reformation folks under the bus. ^_^
Well I am different from Protestants. That's the only differentiation I expect.
this is very vague. Does this position necessarily dictate a literal Adam and Eve, a global flood etc, or can one accept evolutionary science?
I don't believe it's an either/or question. That's #2.
That would not describe my position. I am not aware of anyone that hold that position.
Oh, they're out there.
Do you allow for the possibility of other options?

Hence my request for clarity each time you use the word "evolution". I really do not know that you mean by that if it bears little resemblance to the scientific theory.
There's three types of evolution. Which one?
I don't even accept that myself, in the manner that you have described it.
So something started it, you're just not sure what?
So you cherry-pick, based on what works - or not - with your religion. "Wrong" is what doesn't work.
No, I let science do what science does, and where it affects me, I make my opinion.
Of course. A position that every religionist can hold in regards to their own particular religion. ;)

Is this you retracting your earlier statement "that everyone in the world knows, deep down, that he is absolutely obligated to be and do good."? ;)
No, I believe that to be an absolute. All Truth is absolute. It either is or it isn't.
 
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Davian

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The Catholic Church didn't have a problem with a theory of heliocentrism.
"Now in 1616, just as the controversy about a sun-centered Copernican universe was heating up, the church’s holy office declared that Copernicanism was formally heretical because it contradicted many passages in the bible (e.g. Joshua 10: 11-13, in which the sun stops moving in the sky)."

http://www.vaticanobservatory.va/co.../history-of-astronomy/the-galileo-affair.html

It was Protestants who did.
That Vatican article makes no mention of that.
Sorry you can't tell the difference.
It seems that there is no difference until you need for there to be a difference.
Makes me wonder what you can differentiate.
Resorting to personal attacks now?
Galileo's telescope couldn't prove any parallax shift.
While that would have been additional data, the lack of it would not falsify his findings.
Right. The Protestants.
Are you Protestant?
The Church told him he was free to present it as theory, but to stop calling it fact. As you point out, we cannot absolutely prove it.
What do you mean by "prove"?

Let me ask you: do you consider that the Earth orbits the Sun to be a fact? Yes or no?
Galileo was stubborn and went on with his agenda.
And he did have the facts on his side.
We'll never know. But Galileo and other scientists who were all Catholic, believed heliocentrism, but because of Catholic-Protestant tensions, were afraid to publish them. They didn't want to alienate part of their audience.
Or be subject to the Inquisition.
Yep. A Protestant.
Funny that you made no mention of this when you cited him in support of your position. ^_^
The only time Catholics have a problem with science is when it spills over into religion.
Again you confirm that you allow your religion to inform your science.
Bit of trivia for you: Did you know the Catholic Church invented the overhead cam?
Really? What was the application? Improvements in the torture devices used by the Inquisition?
Well I am different from Protestants. That's the only differentiation I expect.
That, and from those silly YECers. Like a day is "always" 24 hours. ^_^
Davian: this is very vague. Does this position necessarily dictate a literal Adam and Eve, a global flood etc, or can one accept evolutionary science?
I don't believe it's an either/or question. That's #2.
You are still presenting a false trichotomy.

There are evangelical Christians, like Francis Collins, American physician-geneticist, that accept scientific evolutionary theory and have no requirement for a biblical flood and a literal Adam and Eve.

"My study of genetics certainly tells me, incontrovertibly that Darwin was right about the nature of how living things have arrived on the scene, by descent from a common ancestor under the influence of natural selection over very long periods of time. Darwin was amazingly insightful given how limited the molecular information he had was; essentially it didn’t exist. And now with the digital code of the DNA, we have the best possible proof of Darwin’s theory that he could have imagined."

Why It's So Hard for Scientists to Believe in God | Francis Collins | Big Think

"In a recent pro-evolution book from InterVarsity Press, The Language of Science and Faith, Collins and co-author Karl W. Giberson escalate matters, announcing that "unfortunately" the concepts of Adam and Eve as the literal first couple and the ancestors of all humans simply "do not fit the evidence.""

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/june/historicaladam.html


Do the evangelical Christians now go under the bus as well?
Oh, they're out there.
I don't see where you are going with this; perhaps there are individuals that hold untenable concepts of [non-theistic] evolution, but I do not see how it excuses your [theistic] version.
There's three types of evolution. Which one?
I do not accept any of your options. I would look to the scientific theory of evolution as an explanation for the diversity of life on this planet.
So something started it, you're just not sure what?
Evolutionary theory is an explanation for the diversity of life, not origin.
No, I let science do what science does, and where it affects me, I make my opinion.
Again confirming that you allow your religion to inform your science.
Davian: Is this you retracting your earlier statement "that everyone in the world knows, deep down, that he is absolutely obligated to be and do good."?
No, I believe that to be an absolute.
Yet earlier, you conceded exceptions to it. Not an absolute then.
All Truth is absolute. It either is or it isn't.
If by the capitonym "Truth" you mean, "your religious opinion", it looks like it isn't. You religionists cannot all be right.
 
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Root of Jesse

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"Now in 1616, just as the controversy about a sun-centered Copernican universe was heating up, the church’s holy office declared that Copernicanism was formally heretical because it contradicted many passages in the bible (e.g. Joshua 10: 11-13, in which the sun stops moving in the sky)."

http://www.vaticanobservatory.va/co.../history-of-astronomy/the-galileo-affair.html


That Vatican article makes no mention of that.
Well, the article doesn't say that it was wrong to believe the heliocentric theory. "Copernicanism", as a formal doctrine, though, is another case. The article you just cited does not. So what?
It seems that there is no difference until you need for there to be a difference.
What seems, to you, is not what seems, to me.
Resorting to personal attacks now?
No, I just don't know what is in your power to differentiate, when it comes to religion. That's why I've given up.
While that would have been additional data, the lack of it would not falsify his findings.

Are you Protestant?

What do you mean by "prove"?
You were the one who stated it. Can't be proven completely.
Let me ask you: do you consider that the Earth orbits the Sun to be a fact? Yes or no?
Yes, I do. Do you?
And he did have the facts on his side.
If he had stuck to science instead of infringing on theology, they would have left him alone.
Or be subject to the Inquisition.
Gasp! The Inquistion! Do you have courts where you live?
Funny that you made no mention of this when you cited him in support of your position. ^_^

Again you confirm that you allow your religion to inform your science.
No, I don't. I allow my religion to inform my faith.
Really? What was the application? Improvements in the torture devices used by the Inquisition?
Oh, snap!
That, and from those silly YECers. Like a day is "always" 24 hours. ^_^

You are still presenting a false trichotomy.

There are evangelical Christians, like Francis Collins, American physician-geneticist, that accept scientific evolutionary theory and have no requirement for a biblical flood and a literal Adam and Eve.

"My study of genetics certainly tells me, incontrovertibly that Darwin was right about the nature of how living things have arrived on the scene, by descent from a common ancestor under the influence of natural selection over very long periods of time. Darwin was amazingly insightful given how limited the molecular information he had was; essentially it didn’t exist. And now with the digital code of the DNA, we have the best possible proof of Darwin’s theory that he could have imagined."

Why It's So Hard for Scientists to Believe in God | Francis Collins | Big Think

"In a recent pro-evolution book from InterVarsity Press, The Language of Science and Faith, Collins and co-author Karl W. Giberson escalate matters, announcing that "unfortunately" the concepts of Adam and Eve as the literal first couple and the ancestors of all humans simply "do not fit the evidence.""

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/june/historicaladam.html


Do the evangelical Christians now go under the bus as well?
No, I actually have no problem with evangelical Christians, except in things you wouldn't understand. At the time of the Reformation, though, it was Protestants who, by and large, didn't believe what science was telling them.
I don't see where you are going with this; perhaps there are individuals that hold untenable concepts of [non-theistic] evolution, but I do not see how it excuses your [theistic] version.

I do not accept any of your options. I would look to the scientific theory of evolution as an explanation for the diversity of life on this planet.
I agree with that, regarding the evolution of life on earth. There's also the evolution of the universe, you don't think that the universe evolved?
Evolutionary theory is an explanation for the diversity of life, not origin.
So Darwin's treatise wasn't "Origin of Species"?
Again confirming that you allow your religion to inform your science.
Only in your mind.
Yet earlier, you conceded exceptions to it. Not an absolute then.

If by the capitonym "Truth" you mean, "your religious opinion", it looks like it isn't. You religionists cannot all be right.
No, but God gave us absolute Truth. Jesus presented it to us. That's why science really doesn't matter, except to those who earn a living at it.
 
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Davian

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Well, the article doesn't say that it was wrong to believe the heliocentric theory. "Copernicanism", as a formal doctrine, though, is another case. The article you just cited does not. So what?
Tell me, at the time involved, what was the difference between heliocentric theory and Copernicanism?
What seems, to you, is not what seems, to me.
It seems that you appeal to "Christians" when you want the bigger numbers (appeal to popularity), but are quick to toss a particular denomination under the bus when it suits you.
No, I just don't know what is in your power to differentiate, when it comes to religion. That's why I've given up.
That is why I tend to just focus on the individual's (yours, at the moment) beliefs, as I find - as a group - Christian beliefs are all over the place.
You were the one who stated it. Can't be proven completely.
Nothing in science is ever proved completely.
Yes, I do. Do you?
Why do you accept it as fact now, when it is not proved completely, if that is your criteria?
If he had stuck to science instead of infringing on theology, they would have left him alone.
If a theology is claiming to have an accurate description of reality, how is science not going to infringe upon it?
Gasp! The Inquistion! Do you have courts where you live?
Religious courts that combat heresy? No.
No, I don't.
You do it every time that you state that you have a requirement for a literal, historic Adam and Eve. This is you putting religion before science. This is in large why I find religion so untenable, in that it generally requires most, if not almost all, of mainstream scientific knowledge to be wildly inaccurate, even before it has tried to establish the veracity of its own claims.
I allow my religion to inform my faith.
Okay.
Oh, snap!
^_^
No, I actually have no problem with evangelical Christians, except in things you wouldn't understand.
Only partway under the bus then?
At the time of the Reformation, though, it was Protestants who, by and large, didn't believe what science was telling them.
And now it is the Catholics, as you have been showing me.
I agree with that, regarding the evolution of life on earth.
The scientific theory of evolution makes no allowance for a biblical global flood or literal Adam and Eve. Do you still agree with it? Are you familiar with the science behind it at all?
There's also the evolution of the universe, you don't think that the universe evolved?
Sure, it changed over time, but this is a different topic to biology.
So Darwin's treatise wasn't "Origin of Species"?
Yes, "species" is part of the classification system that scientists use for cataloguing the diversity of animals. Where are you going with this?
Only in your mind.
And in your posts.
No, but God gave us absolute Truth.
Who is the "us" that you are referring to? Catholics?

Are the Protestants fooled into thinking the same thing? What of the Evangelical Christians? Are they duped as well?
Jesus presented it to us.
He certainly could have been a lot more clear about things. Can you guys not settle your differences? Or are you all stuck not being able to establish the veracity of your particular - and differing - beliefs?
That's why science really doesn't matter, except to those who earn a living at it.
or those that live in cites, or use modern health care, or feed a large part of the billions of individuals on this planet through the use of artificial fertilizers.

If you think you have a better methodology for exploring reality in a manner that reduces bias and error, feel free to present it. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, science is the worst way to investigate reality, but all the others have been tried.

But then, you are abandoning your apologetic efforts, are you not?
 
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Hoghead1

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No, he wasn't. No, he didn't. If he did, there would have been other issues to deal with.Is that why the Jesuit order has, since its inception, been mostly scientists?Baloney.
So what? I know lots of priests who decide not to become priests, and even become atheists.

No, no, you understanding of history is way off here. Galileo was charged with suspicion of heresy, as he recanted his position, under threat of torture if he didn't. He was given a light sentence because of teh influence of those who took pity on hum, realized he was an old, sick man, which he was. There were other clergy who wanted him brunt, however. His books were put on the prohibited list by the church, up til about 1735. The Jesuit order may well be the intellectual, scientific branch of the church. But at the time, the reigning science was definitely Aristotle all the way. Also, Galileo was dealing with the powers that be which were not all Jesuit.
 
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Hoghead1

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No, he wasn't. No, he didn't. If he did, there would have been other issues to deal with.Is that why the Jesuit order has, since its inception, been mostly scientists?Baloney.
So what? I know lots of priests who decide not to become priests, and even become atheists.

Darwin did not become an atheist, however. You would know that if you studied his writings more closely.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Tell me, at the time involved, what was the difference between heliocentric theory and Copernicanism?
Copernicanism was a doctrine, heliocentric theory was a theory.
It seems that you appeal to "Christians" when you want the bigger numbers (appeal to popularity), but are quick to toss a particular denomination under the bus when it suits you.
No, I don't. There's some Christians who are wrong on things. That's why there's so many denominations.
That is why I tend to just focus on the individual's (yours, at the moment) beliefs, as I find - as a group - Christian beliefs are all over the place.
So you agree that YE Creationism is not what "Christians" believe?
Nothing in science is ever proved completely.
Right. So we agree.
Why do you accept it as fact now, when it is not proved completely, if that is your criteria?
Do you have a reason I should not?
If a theology is claiming to have an accurate description of reality, how is science not going to infringe upon it?
Once again, it is not for theology or religion to tell us how the heavens go. That's not religion's purpose.
Religious courts that combat heresy? No.
Is that all you believe the Inquisition did? Need to study up, then.
You do it every time that you state that you have a requirement for a literal, historic Adam and Eve. This is you putting religion before science. This is in large why I find religion so untenable, in that it generally requires most, if not almost all, of mainstream scientific knowledge to be wildly inaccurate, even before it has tried to establish the veracity of its own claims.
Well, why should God come before anything else? Secondly, there's nothing inherently wrong with believing Creation and believing Evolution at the same time.
If you have kids, have you ever had a book that explains a scientific reality in a story format? You know, maybe with a sperm with eyes and an ova with eyelashes? Is the truth not conveyed? In the same way, the Creation accounts tell us that God started it all, and little more after that.
Okay.

^_^

Only partway under the bus then?

And now it is the Catholics, as you have been showing me.
It's not my problem how you perceive things. Why don't you ask all the Creationists you know to identify themselves, by religion?
The scientific theory of evolution makes no allowance for a biblical global flood or literal Adam and Eve. Do you still agree with it? Are you familiar with the science behind it at all?
If it leaves out God, I do not agree with it. Otherwise, I don't really care how it happened.
Sure, it changed over time, but this is a different topic to biology.
It's still part of the Creation account.
Yes, "species" is part of the classification system that scientists use for cataloguing the diversity of animals. Where are you going with this?
You said "diversity of life, not origin.", yet Darwin wrote "ORIGIN of species".
And in your posts.

Who is the "us" that you are referring to? Catholics?
It's a gift to all of us. Sometimes people (like you) do not recognize gifts given them.
Are the Protestants fooled into thinking the same thing? What of the Evangelical Christians? Are they duped as well?

He certainly could have been a lot more clear about things. Can you guys not settle your differences? Or are you all stuck not being able to establish the veracity of your particular - and differing - beliefs?
That's their problem. Christ gave us a body of beliefs, and it's contained in the Catechism.

or those that live in cites, or use modern health care, or feed a large part of the billions of individuals on this planet through the use of artificial fertilizers.[/quote]You could say thank you to the Catholic Church, which feeds more hungry people, clothes more naked, gives drink to more thirsty and shelter to more homeless than any organization on earth.
If you think you have a better methodology for exploring reality in a manner that reduces bias and error, feel free to present it. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, science is the worst way to investigate reality, but all the others have been tried.
I don't see "exploring reality in a manner that reduces bias and error". There's many tons of bias and error in science, and I'm more concerned with bias.
But then, you are abandoning your apologetic efforts, are you not?
No, I'm just pretty much done with you. Apologetics is not just about you and your ilk.
 
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