The universe with no need of God

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In a godless model of the universe, there are four potential explanations for the Big Bang, which I will refer to as the t=0 event so that those who believe in a 6000 year old universe will be more inclined to participate.

I. The t=0 event occurred for no reason and with no cause.
II. The t=0 event was the result of the interaction of what physicists refer to as membranes. These membranes (or the things from which they ultimately resulted) came into existence for no reason and with no cause.
III. The t=0 event was the result of the interaction of what physicists refer to as membranes. These membranes (or the things from which they ultimately resulted) have existed eternally. Eternal existence is a nonsensical notion in this universe but it is possible to describe a universe wherein this is plausible.
IV. The t=0 event was the result of the interaction of what physicists refer to as membranes. These membranes resulted from previously existing things, which resulted from previously existing things, and etcetera ad infinitum.

I'll admit that none of these seem to be very satisfying, and what's more, there's no actual evidence to favor one over another. To compound problems further, we see that even if you grant any of them that the atheist chooses (say, choice I.), we are still left with this troublesome conclusion:

1. The universe has properties.
2. Properties are either intelligently assigned or randomly assigned.*
3. The properties of the universe were not intelligently assigned.
4. The properties of the universe are random.


All the theist must do now is remark that it is unreasonable to believe that the universe as it is came to be by chance, and therefore its properties must be intelligently assigned.

Have I dug my own grave?

To be fair, the theist has only won once he shows that the same logical scrutiny can be applied to his worldview and that it will be shown to be more reasonable and/or more likely to be true.

Observe:

1. Properties are either intelligently assigned or randomly assigned.*
2. God has properties.
3. God was not assigned these properties by someone else.
4a. Assume God did not assign his own properties to himself.
5a. No one assigned God his properties, so they are not intelligently assigned.
6a. God's properties are random.
4b. Assume God did assign his own properties to himself.
5b. We can reasonably agree that God assigned himself his own properties according to his own preferences.
6bA. Assume God assigned himself his own preferences.
7bA. Before God assigned himself his own preferences, he did not have any preferences.
8bA. God assigned himself his own preferences randomly.
9bA. God assigned himself his own properties according to random preferences.
10bA. God's properties are random.
6bB. Assume God did not assign himself his own preferences.
7bB. God's preferences are not intelligently assigned.
8bB. God's preferences are random.
9bB. Go to 9bA.

Therefore, God's properties are random. If God created the universe, he created its properties. God's random properties are responsible for the creation of the universe's properties. Therefore, the properties of the universe are random.

The assertion of God as the answer does not solve the problem of the universe's properties being random. Furthermore, it is the assertion of something as fact which is both unfalsifiable and unnecessary. Therefore, there is no reason to conclude that God more likely exists than doesn't, and it is irrational to suggest that theism is more reasonable than atheism.

If you want to say that we cannot logically dissect God, or that we cannot even discuss matters of the divine, then you refuse to subject your own worldview to the same level of logical scrutiny to which you subject the atheist worldview. This is taken as a withdraw from debate, or in other words, an admission of defeat.



*(There can be a mixture of intelligent assigning and random assigning. For example, with sleight of hand I might give myself a better chance of drawing the ace of spades from 1 chance in 52 to, say, one chance in 10. In this case, it can be said that the card I draw is random to some degree and intelligently assigned to some degree. For the purposes of this thread, I will ignore this possibility because either there is no God, in which case there is no intelligent agent to stack the odds of a certain thing to occur, or else there is a God, in which case said God does not need to rely on chance as he is omnipotent. I assume we can agree to ignore the possibility of a God that has limited power; God is either unlimited in power or else maximally powerful, that is, he can perform any action which is not logically absurd.)


Footnote: I will refute the Kalam Cosmological Argument here so it cannot be said that I'm ignoring it.

The argument asserts that there must have been a cause for the t=0 event. The problem is lies in the definition of causality:

A system is a region of space.

A state is the arrangement of matter, energy, and otherwise existing things within a system.

Causality acts on a system to take it from one state to another over a duration of time.

"Prior" to the t=0 event, space and time "did" not exist. Phrased more precisely, in a state of reality wherein the t=0 event has not occurred, space and time do not exist. Therefore, causality does not exist. Therefore, the t=0 event cannot have been brought about via causality.

Earlier, I entertained the possibility of membranes causing the universe to exist. This does not solve the problem of causality but rather pushes it back one step; the membranes cause the t=0 event in a temporal, physical sense, making the t=0 event the result of causality, but it follows here that the membranes (or the thing from which the membranes ultimately arose) must have come about without cause.

Now, it may well be true that God used some other means besides causality to create the universe, or he might have simply violated logic and caused the t=0 event to occur. In either case, we cannot reach these conclusions logically starting from premises that make sense. Hence, the Kalam Cosmological Argument fails.
 
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Oncedeceived

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In a godless model of the universe, there are four potential explanations for the Big Bang, which I will refer to as the t=0 event so that those who believe in a 6000 year old universe will be more inclined to participate.

1. God has properties.
What properties does God have? God is a non-physical Being.


2. God was not assigned these properties by someone else.
If God does have properties we know that God says He is not created but has always existed.

3a. Assume God did not assign his own properties to himself.
If God has His own properties why would a non-physical being that has existed eternally need something to assign anything to Him?

4a. No one assigned God his properties, so they are not intelligently assigned.
We haven't any evidence that God has properties, if He does why would He need someone including Himself to assign them?
5a. God's properties are random.
Why would they be random if they did exist?
3b. Assume God did assign his own properties to himself.
Same as above.
4b. We can reasonably agree that God assigned himself his own properties according to his own preferences.
I don't think we can reasonably agree.
5bA. Assume God assigned himself his own preferences.
?

6bA. Before God assigned himself his own preferences, he did not have any preferences.
Why not? What would prohibit Him having any preferences prior to His properties? If He had awareness of assigning properties, He would have a preference to do so.
7bA. God assigned himself his own preferences randomly.
This doesn't even make sense. :scratch:
8bA. God assigned himself his own properties according to random preferences.
9bA. God's properties are random.
Ditto.
5bB. Assume God did not assign himself his own preferences.
6bB. God's preferences are not intelligently assigned.
7bB. God's preferences are random.
8bB. Go to 8bA.
Even if God's preferences were random does not even mean that they would not be intelligently assigned as God being an intelligent being prohibits anything He does as being done without intelligence.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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What properties does God have? God is a non-physical Being.



If God does have properties we know that God says He is not created but has always existed.

If God has His own properties why would a non-physical being that has existed eternally need something to assign anything to Him?

We haven't any evidence that God has properties, if He does why would He need someone including Himself to assign them?
Why would they be random if they did exist?
Same as above.
I don't think we can reasonably agree.
?

Why not? What would prohibit Him having any preferences prior to His properties? If He had awareness of assigning properties, He would have a preference to do so.
This doesn't even make sense. :scratch:
Ditto.
Even if God's preferences were random does not even mean that they would not be intelligently assigned as God being an intelligent being prohibits anything He does as being done without intelligence.

The number 7 is nonphysical but it has properties. For one, it is greater than 6.

What properties does God have? For one, he is omnipotent.

With this in mind, I think you need to re-read the post.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Question: Is this thread only between Young Earth Creationism and atheists who accept science? How would someone who isn't an atheist but accepts the standard model fit into the discussion?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Moral Orel

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You need to plug this one:
3. Properties are either intelligently assigned or randomly assigned.*
In between these two:
2. God was not assigned these properties by someone else.
3a. Assume God did not assign his own properties to himself.
There may be a better spot towards the beginning, but you need to state that premise in both arguments. I think that's where OnceDeceived is misconstruing your argument. She isn't seeing the connection between the first argument about the universe and the second argument about God.

That's a good one though.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Question: Is this thread only between Young Earth Creationism and atheists who accept science?

No.

How would someone who isn't an atheist but accepts the standard model fit into the discussion?

-CryptoLutheran

How is such a person excluded?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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You need to plug this one:

In between these two:

There may be a better spot towards the beginning, but you need to state that premise in both arguments. I think that's where OnceDeceived is misconstruing your argument. She isn't seeing the connection between the first argument about the universe and the second argument about God.

That's a good one though.

I figure it would be tiresome to define the same thing twice. A definition need not be stated as a premise since definitions require no evidence.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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You need to plug this one:

In between these two:

There may be a better spot towards the beginning, but you need to state that premise in both arguments. I think that's where OnceDeceived is misconstruing your argument. She isn't seeing the connection between the first argument about the universe and the second argument about God.

That's a good one though.

Actually you are probably right that it needs to be in there.
 
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DogmaHunter

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What properties does God have? God is a non-physical Being.

What does it mean for X to exist, if X has no properties?
How is a thing that exists without properties, any different from a thing that does not exist?

If God does have properties we know that God says He is not created but has always existed.

If God has His own properties why would a non-physical being that has existed eternally need something to assign anything to Him?

The exact same thing could be said about the universe, or the thing (let's call it "multi-verse") from which this universe came.

We haven't any evidence that God has properties

Indeed. We don't even have evidence that this god exists, which is pretty much the same thing.

if He does why would He need someone including Himself to assign them?

Why would a universe need it? The answer is / can be the same.
 
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Oncedeceived

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What does it mean for X to exist, if X has no properties?
How is a thing that exists without properties, any different from a thing that does not exist?
A thing with properties is of the material world is it not?



The exact same thing could be said about the universe, or the thing (let's call it "multi-verse") from which this universe came.
Our universe had a beginning and to call on a "multi-verse" at one time or another needed a beginning did it not?



Indeed. We don't even have evidence that this god exists, which is pretty much the same thing.
We don't have any evidence that a "multi-verse" exists but many in the scientific fields have no problem with that.



Why would a universe need it? The answer is / can be the same.
A universe had a very broad spectrum of necessary elements to exist.[/Quote]
 
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Moral Orel

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I think discussions like this are ultimately futile. We can't perform experiments in whatever the spiritual realm is. Our only knowledge of it can come by revelation from those who reside in it and choose to share.
This is philosophy, not regular science. It isn't about actually observing anything, it's about thinking about how things came to be by attempting to use logic. We have ample revelation from the Bible describing God's properties to engage in this conversation. It doesn't require much.
 
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ViaCrucis

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How is such a person excluded?

The way the OP is constructed seems to propose two camps, an atheist camp and a theist camp. The theist camp described with these words, "All the theist must do now is remark that it is unreasonable to believe that the universe as it is came to be by chance, and therefore its properties must be intelligently assigned."

Where I would argue that a theist, when approaching the scientific subject of the material origins of the universe, can accept that "chance" is an accurate descriptor without appealing to "intelligent design". The existence of a creative intelligence being a theological proposition, not a scientific one.

I'm just wondering if this hasn't boxed things in. Creationists and/or IDers on one side and "atheist" scientists on the other--as I don't think that's a fair dichotomy since both atheists and theists coexist on the side of science.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The way the OP is constructed seems to propose two camps, an atheist camp and a theist camp.

It there a third camp?

The theist camp described with these words, "All the theist must do now is remark that it is unreasonable to believe that the universe as it is came to be by chance, and therefore its properties must be intelligently assigned."

Where I would argue that a theist, when approaching the scientific subject of the material origins of the universe, can accept that "chance" is an accurate descriptor without appealing to "intelligent design". The existence of a creative intelligence being a theological proposition, not a scientific one.

Are you agreeing that God is not necessary for the universe to exist? Why would you then posit his existence? I cannot conceive of a more bizarre philosophy than this. It is on the level of denying Thor the credit of thunder, yet insisting that he exists.

I'm just wondering if this hasn't boxed things in. Creationists and/or IDers on one side and "atheist" scientists on the other--as I don't think that's a fair dichotomy since both atheists and theists coexist on the side of science.

-CryptoLutheran

It's news to me that this thread is about science.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It there a third camp?

Are you agreeing that God is not necessary for the universe to exist? Why would you then posit his existence? I cannot conceive of a more bizarre philosophy than this. It is on the level of denying Thor the credit of thunder, yet insisting that he exists.

God is not necessary, scientifically speaking. A purely naturalistic explanation of the universe is in keeping with the scientific method. Theologically I believe God is absolutely necessary.

Hence my inquiry where such a view fits within the dichotomy of the thread.

It's news to me that this thread is about science.

I understand that science itself isn't the topic of the thread. But there does seem to be an underlying issue of material origins in the OP.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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DogmaHunter

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A thing with properties is of the material world is it not?

I'ld say a thing with properties is a thing that exists.
Again, how is a thing that exists without properties, any different from a thing that does not exist?

Our universe had a beginning and to call on a "multi-verse" at one time or another needed a beginning did it not?

Why?
And, more importantly, why should the god you call on be any different?

We don't have any evidence that a "multi-verse" exists but many in the scientific fields have no problem with that.

...no problem with the possibility thereof.
As it stands, it is unkown what the origins of this universe is. It is unkown what happened at T = 0.

A universe had a very broad spectrum of necessary elements to exist.

So?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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God is not necessary, scientifically speaking. A purely naturalistic explanation of the universe is in keeping with the scientific method.

Match point, and we haven't even had a volley.


Theologically I believe God is absolutely necessary.

So then if the two of us agree that the God of Islam does not exist, does that mean that Islam's theology does not exist?

Hence my inquiry where such a view fits within the dichotomy of the thread.

I concluded with this:

The assertion of God as the answer does not solve the problem of the universe's properties being random. As far as I can tell, you agree. Furthermore, it is the assertion of something as fact which is both unfalsifiable and unnecessary. As far as I can tell, you agree that God's existence is unfalsifiable and you agreed that his existence is unnecessary. Therefore, there is no reason to conclude that God more likely exists than doesn't, and it is irrational to suggest that theism is more reasonable than atheism. You seemingly must agree that theism is not more reasonable than atheism, yet you prefer theism to atheism. Why?

It seems that you find no actual reason to believe in God other than to hold to his theology, and I assume you understand that his theology would be worthless fiction if he did not exist. I think you need to clarify what you mean by "theology" because your statement above that "Theologically I believe God is absolutely necessary" appears to be nonsensical.

I understand that science itself isn't the topic of the thread. But there does seem to be an underlying issue of material origins in the OP.

-CryptoLutheran

As far as we know, we will never be able to observe, measure, or describe the conditions that precipitated the t=0 event, assuming that such conditions even exist and that the statement is sensible. Lacking the ability to observe, measure, or describe makes the issue nonscientific. It is a metaphysical discussion.

But I don't see how the labels matter.
 
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Ana the Ist

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A thing with properties is of the material world is it not?

Actually, how can a "thing" be a "thing" without some way to describe it? Wouldn't anything that exists be described by it's properties?

Also, what is "non-physical"? That doesn't really tell us anything about what god is....just what it isn't. Imagine for a moment that I began describing everything that isn't water as "non-water".

What's the sky? Non-water.

What's the ground? Non-water.

What's that animal over there? Non-water.

You'd probably think I'm an idiot because I haven't actually told you anything about what those things are...just that they aren't water lol.

Yet it seems like you find this a perfectly reasonable description of god.
 
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Root of Jesse

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It there a third camp?
It seems to me there is. You have science vs young earth creationists, and then there's those of us who believe the Bible doesn't contradict science and vice versa. The point is that God created it all. Some of us don't care how, necessarily, or it's not that important how you want to explain it.
Are you agreeing that God is not necessary for the universe to exist? Why would you then posit his existence? I cannot conceive of a more bizarre philosophy than this. It is on the level of denying Thor the credit of thunder, yet insisting that he exists.
The fact is that God IS necessary. There are so many things in physics that, if changed even 1/1000th of 1%, would make the universe impossible. A 'local' example is our atmospheric content of 22% oxygen/78% nitrogen. If it were any different, life would not have formed the way it exists. A more visible indication of intelligent design is the monarch butterfly. It has so many characteristics that could not possibly be random...


It's news to me that this thread is about science.[/QUOTE]The universe does need God.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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It seems to me there is. You have science vs young earth creationists, and then there's those of us who believe the Bible doesn't contradict science and vice versa. The point is that God created it all. Some of us don't care how, necessarily, or it's not that important how you want to explain it.

There is not a third camp. The "camps" were defined in this quote from ViaCrucis:

The way the OP is constructed seems to propose two camps, an atheist camp and a theist camp.

Atheism and theism is a dichotomy. No third camp.

The fact is that God IS necessary. There are so many things in physics that, if changed even 1/1000th of 1%, would make the universe impossible.

Such as?

A 'local' example is our atmospheric content of 22% oxygen/78% nitrogen. If it were any different, life would not have formed the way it exists.

That is not a physical variable. Also, we can do well in a wide range of oxygen concentration. Ever been to the beach and also on a hilltop? Different concentrations of oxygen.

A more visible indication of intelligent design is the monarch butterfly. It has so many characteristics that could not possibly be random...

Such as...?

The universe does need God.

Even if this is true, you have made no attempt to show that God's properties are not random. That point is required for your case.
 
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