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The universe with no need of God

Eudaimonist

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In my initial interests to computers back a long time ago, I found it is impossible to design a computer that has real creativity, that can have feelings.

How did you "find" that? How would you know if a computer did or didn't have feelings? And why did you think that it was in your personal capability to design a computer that could have feelings?

If we can't do it nature can't evolve it

That doesn't follow.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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dcalling

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Can you just tell me what your position is and where you want to take this line of questioning? You seem to reject certain things which are not supposed to be a point in question. Your position is so alien that I need you to spell it out for me.

I am curious on your position.
But anyway here is mine:
1. If time is eternal (no start/no begining), any t=0 is meaningless, since there is always time before that.
2. If you believe that there is a time (lol) that time stands still (i.e. all matters are all in absolute stand still relative to each other so time is irrelevant), then what caused all those matters to move (I think that is your initial question, basically drawing a conclusion that there must be God?)
3. God's attribute can be clearly seen through his creations. Scientists are amazed by how precises the universe is designed, that just turn the parameters a little bit and the whole universe will be much hostile and life will be impossible. As I said again and again, the statement "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a clear statement about the nature of God.
 
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dcalling

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How did you "find" that? How would you know if a computer did or didn't have feelings? And why did you think that it was in your personal capability to design a computer that could have feelings?
That doesn't follow.
eudaimonia,
Mark

If you have done programming before you know your program does not have feelings. I can write a program and fake the "feelings" but it will never have one. You can go find any computer sciense student/professor and ask them to write a program that have real feelings, and they will tell you either it is not possible (those are the good ones), or it will take time (the young ones)
 
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If you have done programming before you know your program does not have feelings.

I'm a software developer by profession, and have studied some AI.

I don't see how any of *my* meager programs could produce feelings in a computer, but I don't know that *all* programs (or that all computers, which would include artificial neural networks and quantum computers) wouldn't create feelings as some sort of emergent phenomenon. I can't say that it is impossible with complete assurance, given that brains evidently produce feelings, and there is still the epistemological question of how would I know if a computer had feelings or not?

Please keep in mind that having feelings and showing feelings are two different things. I agree that just adding a few "print statements" to a program, such as "I feel happy" and "I feel sad", aren't the same thing as actually feeling happy and feeling sad. But that's not really the issue. Could there be some behavior in a computer, which could be an artificial neural network, that could produce feelings whether the programmer had intended them or not? It's not so obvious.

You can go find any computer sciense student/professor and ask them to write a program that have real feelings, and they will tell you either it is not possible (those are the good ones), or it will take time (the young ones)

Hi! Here I am, and I'm telling you that it's not as obvious as you are making it out to be.

Also, you can't rightly make an analogy between the human brain and microprocessors (it doesn't execute sequential programs). The human brain is not like a microprocessor, but is more of a neural net that might (if Roger Penrose is right) even resemble a quantum computer in some ways. So, it is a poor argument to say that if microprocessors don't have feelings, then the human brain must also not have feelings, that is, without some supernatural entity involved. Even if you were right that microprocessors simply can't have feelings, this is not a valid path of logic.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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devolved

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In my initial interests to computers back a long time ago, I found it is impossible to design a computer that has real creativity, that can have feelings. If we can't do it nature can't evolve it, so there must be something that is not material to this world, that is my initial concept of God.

Why do you think we have to do it? Likewise, why do you think nature can't evolve it? Everything we know points to that so far.

Then I read about how one should "Love your neighbor as yourself", that we are all sinners and only God can save us, if we all held such views this world will be a much better place, and that concept is not just 1st century, it is eternal.

Why do you need God to derive that principle?
 
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ScottA

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In a godless model of the universe, there are four potential explanations for the Big Bang, which I will refer to as the t=0 event so that those who believe in a 6000 year old universe will be more inclined to participate.

I. The t=0 event occurred for no reason and with no cause.
II. The t=0 event was the result of the interaction of what physicists refer to as membranes. These membranes (or the things from which they ultimately resulted) came into existence for no reason and with no cause.
III. The t=0 event was the result of the interaction of what physicists refer to as membranes. These membranes (or the things from which they ultimately resulted) have existed eternally. Eternal existence is a nonsensical notion in this universe but it is possible to describe a universe wherein this is plausible.
IV. The t=0 event was the result of the interaction of what physicists refer to as membranes. These membranes resulted from previously existing things, which resulted from previously existing things, and etcetera ad infinitum.

I'll admit that none of these seem to be very satisfying, and what's more, there's no actual evidence to favor one over another. To compound problems further, we see that even if you grant any of them that the atheist chooses (say, choice I.), we are still left with this troublesome conclusion:

1. The universe has properties.
2. Properties are either intelligently assigned or randomly assigned.*
3. The properties of the universe were not intelligently assigned.
4. The properties of the universe are random.


All the theist must do now is remark that it is unreasonable to believe that the universe as it is came to be by chance, and therefore its properties must be intelligently assigned.

Have I dug my own grave?

To be fair, the theist has only won once he shows that the same logical scrutiny can be applied to his worldview and that it will be shown to be more reasonable and/or more likely to be true.

Observe:

1. Properties are either intelligently assigned or randomly assigned.*
2. God has properties.
3. God was not assigned these properties by someone else.
4a. Assume God did not assign his own properties to himself.
5a. No one assigned God his properties, so they are not intelligently assigned.
6a. God's properties are random.
4b. Assume God did assign his own properties to himself.
5b. We can reasonably agree that God assigned himself his own properties according to his own preferences.
6bA. Assume God assigned himself his own preferences.
7bA. Before God assigned himself his own preferences, he did not have any preferences.
8bA. God assigned himself his own preferences randomly.
9bA. God assigned himself his own properties according to random preferences.
10bA. God's properties are random.
6bB. Assume God did not assign himself his own preferences.
7bB. God's preferences are not intelligently assigned.
8bB. God's preferences are random.
9bB. Go to 9bA.

Therefore, God's properties are random. If God created the universe, he created its properties. God's random properties are responsible for the creation of the universe's properties. Therefore, the properties of the universe are random.

The assertion of God as the answer does not solve the problem of the universe's properties being random. Furthermore, it is the assertion of something as fact which is both unfalsifiable and unnecessary. Therefore, there is no reason to conclude that God more likely exists than doesn't, and it is irrational to suggest that theism is more reasonable than atheism.

If you want to say that we cannot logically dissect God, or that we cannot even discuss matters of the divine, then you refuse to subject your own worldview to the same level of logical scrutiny to which you subject the atheist worldview. This is taken as a withdraw from debate, or in other words, an admission of defeat.



*(There can be a mixture of intelligent assigning and random assigning. For example, with sleight of hand I might give myself a better chance of drawing the ace of spades from 1 chance in 52 to, say, one chance in 10. In this case, it can be said that the card I draw is random to some degree and intelligently assigned to some degree. For the purposes of this thread, I will ignore this possibility because either there is no God, in which case there is no intelligent agent to stack the odds of a certain thing to occur, or else there is a God, in which case said God does not need to rely on chance as he is omnipotent. I assume we can agree to ignore the possibility of a God that has limited power; God is either unlimited in power or else maximally powerful, that is, he can perform any action which is not logically absurd.)


Footnote: I will refute the Kalam Cosmological Argument here so it cannot be said that I'm ignoring it.

The argument asserts that there must have been a cause for the t=0 event. The problem is lies in the definition of causality:

A system is a region of space.

A state is the arrangement of matter, energy, and otherwise existing things within a system.

Causality acts on a system to take it from one state to another over a duration of time.

"Prior" to the t=0 event, space and time "did" not exist. Phrased more precisely, in a state of reality wherein the t=0 event has not occurred, space and time do not exist. Therefore, causality does not exist. Therefore, the t=0 event cannot have been brought about via causality.

Earlier, I entertained the possibility of membranes causing the universe to exist. This does not solve the problem of causality but rather pushes it back one step; the membranes cause the t=0 event in a temporal, physical sense, making the t=0 event the result of causality, but it follows here that the membranes (or the thing from which the membranes ultimately arose) must have come about without cause.

Now, it may well be true that God used some other means besides causality to create the universe, or he might have simply violated logic and caused the t=0 event to occur. In either case, we cannot reach these conclusions logically starting from premises that make sense. Hence, the Kalam Cosmological Argument fails.
You lost me at "Observe." :)

However, the problem here...is that there can be no observation of the actual cause or origin. No matter the compilation, the beginning and the end are unknown - nor can they be known by human resource from anywhere between the beginning and the end. The only means of knowing the answer then, is if there actually is a God, and he reveals it.

Of course...I know that He has...so, this has all been a way of saying, I know - as does anyone who knows God, and apparently science does not know, nor could they.
 
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dcalling

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Why do you think we have to do it? Likewise, why do you think nature can't evolve it? Everything we know points to that so far.



Why do you need God to derive that principle?
If humans can't do it, nature surely can't do it. If we who have intellegence can't do it, it will be impossible for it to happen out of randomness.
 
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dcalling

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I'm a software developer by profession, and have studied some AI.

I don't see how any of *my* meager programs could produce feelings in a computer, but I don't know that *all* programs (or that all computers, which would include artificial neural networks and quantum computers) wouldn't create feelings as some sort of emergent phenomenon. I can't say that it is impossible with complete assurance, given that brains evidently produce feelings, and there is still the epistemological question of how would I know if a computer had feelings or not?

Please keep in mind that having feelings and showing feelings are two different things. I agree that just adding a few "print statements" to a program, such as "I feel happy" and "I feel sad", aren't the same thing as actually feeling happy and feeling sad. But that's not really the issue. Could there be some behavior in a computer, which could be an artificial neural network, that could produce feelings whether the programmer had intended them or not? It's not so obvious.



Hi! Here I am, and I'm telling you that it's not as obvious as you are making it out to be.

Also, you can't rightly make an analogy between the human brain and microprocessors (it doesn't execute sequential programs). The human brain is not like a microprocessor, but is more of a neural net that might (if Roger Penrose is right) even resemble a quantum computer in some ways. So, it is a poor argument to say that if microprocessors don't have feelings, then the human brain must also not have feelings, that is, without some supernatural entity involved. Even if you were right that microprocessors simply can't have feelings, this is not a valid path of logic.


eudaimonia,

Mark

It is all the same. If you are in the profession, then you should be even more clear (unlike others who don't understand computers and imagine it in a sifi way), that all programs, no matter complex or simple, can do the same work (i.e. the same thing can be written in assembly, c/c++/java/c#, just with different amout of effort).

Similarly, if something is executed in parallel or not does not affect the out come (if it is written properly). We can easily simulate a neuro network with computers, that what computers do, given a model it does calculations. It will never have feelings, the program written, no matter what language, what style, will never have feelings.

Think about it, the computers we have might exceed the calculation ability of a dog, but it will never have feeling as a dog.
 
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If humans can't do it, nature surely can't do it.

That simply does not follow. It is not a safe conclusion.

Nature may have advantages that we don't, such as billions of years with environments that we don't currently have.

If we who have intellegence can't do it, it will be impossible for it to happen out of randomness.

Then clearly you haven't heard of the successes of genetic algorithms.

There are computer programs that are capable, for instance, of arriving at innovative solutions to engineering problems, beating even skilled engineers, who I assume are intelligent. This involves some of the same sort of "randomness" found in nature that biological evolution depends on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna


Don't underestimate nature's ability, no matter how "random" it may seem, to come up with innovative solutions.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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We can easily simulate a neuro network with computers, that what computers do, given a model it does calculations. It will never have feelings, the program written, no matter what language, what style, will never have feelings.

A simulation of a neural net is not the same thing as the existence of a neural net. Perhaps the simulation wouldn't produce feelings, but the neural net would, because feelings are emergent specifically in the neural net. Or perhaps the simulation would produce feelings after all (see, for instance, functionalism), and is a special case.

Furthermore, a deterministic microprocessor cannot adequately model a non-deterministic quantum computer. That is an intrinsic limitation of microprocessors. Again, if Roger Penrose is right about living brains, then your argument falls flat right away.

You keep saying what could "never" happen, but that assurance is based on questionable arguments. We haven't even agreed to an answer to the "hard problem of consciousness", and so I simply have no reason to think that even a microprocessor absolutely cannot experience feelings. That just seems to be based on your personal incredulity. I don't see how this has in any way been proven.

Which theory of mind should we go with? Functionalism? Identity theory? Behaviorism? Should we accept dual aspect theory? Or non-reductive physicalism? Or something else? And why?

Think about it, the computers we have might exceed the calculation ability of a dog, but it will never have feeling as a dog.

Sorry, but like I said, this is not as obvious or as certain as you are making it out to be .

And since dogs evidently can experience feelings, the parsimonious conclusion is that at least one type of neural net can experience feelings, not that there "must be" some supernatural component that does.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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I am curious on your position.

Once again, just read the OP.

But anyway here is mine:
1. If time is eternal (no start/no begining), any t=0 is meaningless, since there is always time before that.

When I say "your position" I am generally referring to what you hold as a basic, foundational truth, not some "If..., then..." statement.

However, in evaluating this conditional statement you offer under the assumption that the "then..." part reflects your beliefs, I see that you are about 80 years behind the times. The whole world is aware now that there was a cosmic beginning. It is not a point in question and frankly this assertion of yours puts you in league with the flat earthers (they do still exist).

2. If you believe that there is a time (lol) that time stands still (i.e. all matters are all in absolute stand still relative to each other so time is irrelevant), then what caused all those matters to move (I think that is your initial question, basically drawing a conclusion that there must be God?)

I'll address this part first:

I think that is your initial question, basically drawing a conclusion that there must be God?

I do not understand why you think I'm drawing the conclusion that there must be a deity. My stated religion is "atheist" and it has never changed on this site. I assume you must be referring to how I am faithfully rendering the theistic argument about the prime mover. I rebutted that argument in the OP. Please read it.

If you believe that there is a time (lol) that time stands still (i.e. all matters are all in absolute stand still relative to each other so time is irrelevant), then what caused all those matters to move

There was no cause for the t=0 event. I take the trouble to go into good detail on why this is the case. Please read the OP.

3. God's attribute can be clearly seen through his creations.

I do not know what this means.

Scientists are amazed by how precises the universe is designed, that just turn the parameters a little bit and the whole universe will be much hostile and life will be impossible.

OK, so now you're getting into fine tuning. I don't want to get too ad hominem here but um... don't you reject biology and cosmology? Evolution is the pillar of biology and the Big Bang is the pillar of cosmology, and you reject both of those ideas. I fail to see your motivation for citing scientists. It is dishonest to cherry pick scientists by accepting their claims that you like and rejecting the ones you don't like.

However, in the interest of acquiring knowledge, I wouldn't mind if you told me how the universe is fine-tuned... even if it is slightly off topic.

As I said again and again, the statement "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a clear statement about the nature of God.

Off topic and a poor quote to use. Taken out of context. In the Bible, your neighbor is a friendly member of your own country. That is why there was no restriction on the Hebrews raping, pillaging and murdering various people such as the Ammonites, Moabites, etc. If that is the nature of God, then I not only believe that I am correct about his nonexistence but I also hope I am correct with every fiber of my being for the sake of all living things.
 
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However, the problem here...is that there can be no observation of the actual cause or origin.

So then maybe the side that says "We don't know how or why the universe exists" is correct and the side that claims to have this knowledge is incorrect?
 
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dcalling

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That simply does not follow. It is not a safe conclusion.

Nature may have advantages that we don't, such as billions of years with environments that we don't currently have.



Then clearly you haven't heard of the successes of genetic algorithms.

There are computer programs that are capable, for instance, of arriving at innovative solutions to engineering problems, beating even skilled engineers, who I assume are intelligent. This involves some of the same sort of "randomness" found in nature that biological evolution depends on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna


Don't underestimate nature's ability, no matter how "random" it may seem, to come up with innovative solutions.


eudaimonia,

Mark
Mark,

All that is just a way to search the permutations and find something that fits the criteria, nothing creative in there by the computer, it is just following an algorithm, doing its calculations, very similar to how we solve a map. The put int he word "Darwin" in there but it won't fool us engineers :)
 
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dcalling

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Once again, just read the OP.



When I say "your position" I am generally referring to what you hold as a basic, foundational truth, not some "If..., then..." statement.

However, in evaluating this conditional statement you offer under the assumption that the "then..." part reflects your beliefs, I see that you are about 80 years behind the times. The whole world is aware now that there was a cosmic beginning. It is not a point in question and frankly this assertion of yours puts you in league with the flat earthers (they do still exist).



I'll address this part first:

I think that is your initial question, basically drawing a conclusion that there must be God?

I do not understand why you think I'm drawing the conclusion that there must be a deity. My stated religion is "atheist" and it has never changed on this site. I assume you must be referring to how I am faithfully rendering the theistic argument about the prime mover. I rebutted that argument in the OP. Please read it.

If you believe that there is a time (lol) that time stands still (i.e. all matters are all in absolute stand still relative to each other so time is irrelevant), then what caused all those matters to move

There was no cause for the t=0 event. I take the trouble to go into good detail on why this is the case. Please read the OP.



I do not know what this means.



OK, so now you're getting into fine tuning. I don't want to get too ad hominem here but um... don't you reject biology and cosmology? Evolution is the pillar of biology and the Big Bang is the pillar of cosmology, and you reject both of those ideas. I fail to see your motivation for citing scientists. It is dishonest to cherry pick scientists by accepting their claims that you like and rejecting the ones you don't like.

However, in the interest of acquiring knowledge, I wouldn't mind if you told me how the universe is fine-tuned... even if it is slightly off topic.



Off topic and a poor quote to use. Taken out of context. In the Bible, your neighbor is a friendly member of your own country. That is why there was no restriction on the Hebrews raping, pillaging and murdering various people such as the Ammonites, Moabites, etc. If that is the nature of God, then I not only believe that I am correct about his nonexistence but I also hope I am correct with every fiber of my being for the sake of all living things.

Well, I know about the theory of cosmic beginning, you simply think that is the t=0 event right?
Well, what's before the cosmic beginning? is time at still? Do you see where I am getting at? The only thing that can cause time to stand still is if everything is at absolute still (so there won't be a measure of time), but if that is the case what caused things to move? I hope you understand my question.
 
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Well, I know about the theory of cosmic beginning, you simply think that is the t=0 event right?

I'm labeling the cosmic beginning as the t=0 event.

Well, what's before the cosmic beginning? is time at still? Do you see where I am getting at? The only thing that can cause time to stand still is if everything is at absolute still (so there won't be a measure of time), but if that is the case what caused things to move? I hope you understand my question.

Your inclination to believe in an eternal universe is understandable in an intuitive sense, but it is not forgivable considering the vastness of the internet that lies before you. Any flat-earther who has not investigated the facts as to why the earth is a sphere does not deserve to be taken seriously. Given the overwhelming majority on the issue of the shape of earth, any flat-earther must lead with, at the very least, the acknowledgement that a flat earth model implies the existence of boundary conditions which should be easily detectable. So imagine my confusion when you posit an eternal universe and yet also describe the properties of entropy, the very thing that explains why the universe must be finite in age.

I'm not inclined to explain to you the exhaustive reasoning as to why the universe must have had a beginning, and since you haven't investigated the matter for yourself up to this point, I'll make no assumption that you will and so I will address your eternal universe model from a theological perspective. Any Christian who takes up the task to read the whole Bible from cover to cover usually bows out before they get to the parts about rape, genocide, and utter insanity that make up the bulk of the Old Testament, but none of these people have trouble reading the very first verse:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.


Every theist I know of, aside from you, believes that the universe had a beginning and that it required an initial cause. For the Christians, their reasoning is the very first thing stated in their scriptures. I made the following graphic to explain why that thinking is wrong:

5314cd6c8a.png
 
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All that is just a way to search the permutations and find something that fits the criteria, nothing creative in there by the computer, it is just following an algorithm, doing its calculations, very similar to how we solve a map. The put int he word "Darwin" in there but it won't fool us engineers :)

I'm not saying that the genetic algorithm is creative in precisely the same way that engineers are creative. But that is irrelevant.

My point stands: Even though genetic algorithms employ pseudo-random number generation, that nevertheless is equivalent to the "randomness" found in nature. And such a process can come up with optimal or near-optimal solutions to problems that even intelligent engineers might not discover. Genetic algorithms are based on Darwinian insights, and so your hypothetical engineer is not being fooled by anything. Computers imitate natural selection, and benefit! One simply cannot conclude that if human beings are (at least as yet) unable to solve certain problems, then nature cannot solve those problems.


eudaimonia,

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Well, what's before the cosmic beginning?

There is no "before" the beginning of time because before is undefined.

is time at still?

No, time is not still either "before" t=0 (since there is no before) or at t=0, since physical reality is already travelling on its merry way to t=1.

Do you see where I am getting at? The only thing that can cause time to stand still is if everything is at absolute still (so there won't be a measure of time), but if that is the case what caused things to move? I hope you understand my question.

It was the nature of whatever existed at t=0 that caused things to move. Since time is not "still" at t=0, this isn't any sort of philosophical problem.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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ScottA

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So then maybe the side that says "We don't know how or why the universe exists" is correct and the side that claims to have this knowledge is incorrect?
Well...those who say they don't know would definitely be correct. But, unless you consider that those who claim to have this knowledge, may actually have it - then you would only be guessing at their position too.

I say that "I know"...because I have been outside the realm of time and had the opportunity to consider it all from that greater perspective. Some say they know, when they actually only want to believe it, or because they have faith that what they do not know is confirmed by what they do know (much as is the practice with science).
 
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Well...those who say they don't know would definitely be correct. But, unless you consider that those who claim to have this knowledge, may actually have it - then you would only be guessing at their position too.

I know that they don't have this knowledge because their arguments contain fallacies.

I say that "I know"...because I have been outside the realm of time and had the opportunity to consider it all from that greater perspective. Some say they know, when they actually only want to believe it, or because they have faith that what they do not know is confirmed by what they do know (much as is the practice with science).

If you're just going to blurt something like that out there, you ought to quickly follow it up with the explanation of how you were thoroughly examined by psychiatrists. If you never put forth that effort, I see no need to take you seriously. If you have gone through those tests, please tell me what they concluded.
 
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ScottA

Author: Walking Like Einstein
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I know that they don't have this knowledge because their arguments contain fallacies.



If you're just going to blurt something like that out there, you ought to quickly follow it up with the explanation of how you were thoroughly examined by psychiatrists. If you never put forth that effort, I see no need to take you seriously. If you have gone through those tests, please tell me what they concluded.
I have the word of a Higher authority - and you cannot name one fallacy in what I have told you.
 
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