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The Unforgiveable Sins

Which sin(s) is(are) unforgiveable?

  • Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

    Votes: 12 92.3%
  • Not believing in the name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • Homosexuality

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Adultery

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lying

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Divorce and remarriage while the original spouse is still alive

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Remarriage

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Murder

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Suicide

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sabbath-breaking

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    13

Neogaia777

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Only people who know what Jesus knew are the only ones that are even remotely capable of committing this specific kind of sin that is being right now mentioned here, (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc), but that's also not to say you may, or may not, etc, be either allowed, or not be allowed, etc, into or out of Heaven, etc, for maybe some other kinds of sins, etc...

But this specific one here, is only for the ones with the knowledge, etc.

It was Jesus specific warning to those ones who would come to know what he knew while he was here that would come after him after that specifically, etc.

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Only people who know what Jesus knew are the only ones that are even remotely capable of committing this specific kind of sin that is being right now mentioned here, (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc), but that's also not to say you may, or may not, etc, be either allowed, or not be allowed, etc, into or out of Heaven, etc, for maybe some other kinds of sins, etc...

But this specific one here, is only for the ones with the knowledge, etc.

It was Jesus specific warning to those ones who would come to know what he knew while he was here that would come after him specifically, etc.

God Bless!
And that specific warning to those ones specifically was, that once it is/was fully commited, it cannot ever be forgiven after that by any means after that fully ever at all after that period, etc.

That specific one can never be made clean again, etc, unlike some others can, etc, which makes this specific sin very, very unique, etc, and Jesus was warning those ones about it, since they are the only ones fully capable of doing it, etc.

God Bless!
 
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bbbbbbb

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And that specific warning to those ones specifically was, that once it is/was fully commited, it cannot ever be forgiven after that by any means after that fully ever at all after that period, etc.

That specific one can never be made clean again, etc, unlike some others can, etc, which makes this specific sin very, very unique, etc, and Jesus was warning those ones about it, since they are the only ones fully capable of doing it, etc.

God Bless!

Thank you!
 
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TedT

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You need to get out more. Why don't you take a trip with me to VietNam and I will personally introduce you to some of these folks? They do not have the slightest tidbit of information regarding Christianity.

People's suppression of the truth they know so they do not remember does not trump the truth that they indeed know it as told in the bible...
 
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TedT

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Do you believe that is uniformly true of every person who is completely and utterly ignorant of the person and work of Jesus Christ?

The long (though not complete) version just for you...

(Get ready. This is a pretty tough section. This meat has been dried in the sun, which makes for pretty hard chewing. Bet by the time you are finished you'll be wondering if you've been dried in the sun too!)

It seems to be a fact of life that only some people get to hear the gospel of the truth about YHWH. Indeed, it would probably be accepted as a true fact in any courtroom, that the greater part of mankind has lived and died without possessing any knowledge of YHWH at all. This seems to be an irrefutable historical fact, but this fact seems to be contradicted by such Scriptures as Psalm 9:17, Isaiah 40:21, John 3:18, and Romans 1:18-32 (all of which are dealt with in this category) simply because these Scriptures lead us to believe that everyone knows or has known about YHWH and HIS intention to judge every one who does not have faith / believe in HIM.

Now if this interpretation is correct (and it is), then we are left with the questions of how and when did each person hear the plain truth about YHWH, and why does the vast majority of mankind appear ignorant of this revealed truth? I believe that pre-conception theology offers a better solution to these questions and this paradox than any other does.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget GOD. NASV The wicked shall return to Sheol, even all the nations who forget GOD.
Kiel - Delitzsch Commentary(#22): Yea, back to Hades must the wicked return, all the heathen, that forget GOD.
We looked at the first part of this verse earlier on under GOING BACK. There we concluded that for the wicked to go back to Sheol, they had to have left it at some time. Now in the second part of the verse, we can also see that these same returnees have forgotten GOD. (The KJV “and” is not in the Hebrew text. That is why it is italicised in many KJV Bibles.)

Now to my mind it is possible to look on the forgetting of GOD in only one way, that being that it means the rejection and putting away of YHWH's self-attesting witness and HIS prophecy - warning of eternal judgement, which to have put away, they must have previously received.

Now the thing we have to determine is exactly when they received it, and so far as this apology is concerned, the question boils down to whether this revelation is received in this life or whether it is received before this life.

Now I do not believe that it is necessary to go into all the short comings of all the in-life theories right now because in this case, all I have to do is appeal to the first part of this verse on account of the fact that it clearly supports pre-conception theology in that it speaks of their return to Sheol, the KJV's insistence on translating the word shuv as opposite to its ordinary meaning notwithstanding.

Therefore may I suggest that since the first part of this verse clearly can imply our pre-conception existence, that constitutes a fairly strong witness that the time when David believed that the wicked received the revelation of YHWH and HIS judgement was also previous to this life.

Isaiah 40:21 Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? Hath it not been told you from the beginning? Have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
First of all, from the context (you could read it) we can determine that what they have known, heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is the almighty sovereign GOD (Isaiah 40:10). That is what they have received.

Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah is not asking questions. He is giving answers.

Next, we should try to determine the time when they received this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether they received it during this life or pre-earth life. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say that the words, if taken straight forwardly, seem to say that this knowledge was received at the time of the foundation of the Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for everyone, at least since Adam and Eve. Isaiah's answer is an exact match to pre-conception theology, simple and straightforward.

John 3:16 For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For GOD sent not HIS Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GOD. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world. And men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
The proper understanding of these verses depends, first of all, upon the meaning ascribed to the word “world”. May I submit that this word means Adam and all his children? I think that this is in accord with the Greek, as Mr. Vine(#23) states: (the Greek word) “Kosmos is used to denote, by metonymy, the human race, mankind.”

And does GOD love just some of mankind, that is, only the ones living since Jesus came that have heard the gospel? No, HE loves the BC ones too. (Believe it!) Therefore the “world” must include everyone since Adam.

Secondly, proper understanding depends upon the meaning we ascribe to the words “condemned already." I believe that we must consider the condemnation as being already present before they heard the gospel in this life, which means that they would be under condemnation even before Jesus incarnated.

In other words, Jesus' incarnation did not result in the condemnation of unbelieving men, they were condemned already, that is, they loved the darkness before He came. He came to save them from the condemnation they were under.

[ASIDE: According to these definitions, I believe that we can read the verse like this: For GOD so loved Adam and his children that HE gave HIS unique Son, that whosoever of them should come to believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. For GOD sent not HIS Son unto Adam and his children to condemn them, but that they, through faith in Him, might be saved. Adam and those like him, that have returned to the Shepherd of their souls and now have a belief in Him that will continue forever, are no longer under condemnation, but those who still do not profess such a belief in Him, are still under condemnation that results from not believing in the previously revealed Name of the unique Son of GOD.]

Now in verse 18 John says that the reason for the condemnation that was present before He incarnated was unbelief in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD, that is, unbelief in the person of Jesus and all that He stands for. Now in regard to this unbelief, something we have to establish is why they do not believe? What is the nature of their faithlessness?

For instance, should we read the verse, “those that believeth not on account of their ignorance in that they have never heard about the Son, are condemned already because they have omitted believing in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD?”
Or,
should we read the verse, “they that have refused to believe are condemned already because they have refused to believe in the Name of the only begotten Son?”

Now, the first interpretation seems to give an explanation for the condemnation of all those who have never heard about Jesus in this life, that is, their sin is a sin of omission. They have failed to do that which is expected of them and necessary for their salvation. This seems somewhat reasonable but, to believe that some people perish for lack of the knowledge of salvation, one must first deny either the sovereignty of GOD or the infiniteness of HIS love.

Their condemnation on account of their ignorance means that if He loves them and is trying to get the message of HIS Son to them, HE is failing in what HE is attempting to do. Or it means that if HE is able to get HIS message to them, HE does not love them enough to send it.

Therefore, it seems that this idea of their condemnation on account of their ignorant omission of faith is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD, and we should not interpret Scripture in a way that denies the character of GOD should we?

Well, since the first interpretation is untenable with the attributes of GOD, then we are left with only the second, that is, that the entire unbelieving world is condemned because they have refused to believe in the Name or Person of the Son of GOD.

Now this conclusion regarding the nature of their unbelief leads us to another conclusion, that is: that for there to be a refusal to believe in His Name, there must have been a prior revelation of His Name. In other words, for there to be a rebellion, there must first be a known authority (revealed God) to rebel against.

Now, two things show that there was such a self-attesting revelation given to all men.
First, it is shown by what John says in 3:19, that the Light has been shown to the world (that is, to Adam and his children) but some men preferred darkness to Him, that is, disbelief to belief, disobedience to obedience. The men he is talking about all refused to believe in the Son. Their sin was not a sin of omission. They had received the self-attesting revelation of the Light, that is, of the Son.

Second, that every unbelieving man in history is included in this rebellious group, that is, that the revelation is universal, is proven by John 1:9 the true Light, which lighteth every man.

From this verse, we can see that every person on Earth has received or seen the Light, that is, Jesus, even those who lived before He came and the gospel was proclaimed.

Now, having established these facts of the universal revelation of His Name and the rebellion of all unbelieving men, we are faced with the question as to when each and every person received the revelation of the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD? Once again so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether this revelation was received before life began or whether it was received during this life.

I believe that there are two things that bear witness that this revelation is received before this life begins (and is subsequently forgotten).

The first is the complete absence, before He incarnated, of any unscriptural testimony regarding the name of YHWH's Son. I think that if every BC person received the revelation of His Name in this life, someone would have written it down, or at least remembered it and talked about it to someone else. In other words, I think that the truth about Him would have been fairly well known before He came.

Secondly, I think that John also gives us a fairly strong indication that this revelation was given before life began in John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

If every man comes into the world, then every man must exist before he comes into the world. Therefore, I believe that these two things bear witness that the revelation of the name of YHWH's Son that is given to every person, was given before life began.

Well, as you no doubt noticed, this is a fairly drawn out argument. Therefore perhaps a short summary would be of some profit.

First, we saw that the entire unbelieving world was condemned already, that is, even before He came.

Second, we saw that the unbelievers are under condemnation for faithlessness in His Name.

Third, we saw that the sin of omission is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD and that John 1:9 bears witness that the entire world has received the revelation of His Name.

For these reasons we concluded that the unbelievers' sin was a sin of rebellion rather than a sin of omission, which universal rebellion necessitates a previous universal revelation of His Name. This is probably mentioned in Colossians 1:23 as the verb proclaimed is a finished past act...even though it has not yet been fulfilled on earth.

Finally, in regard to the time of the universal revelation of His Name, we felt first, that the lack of knowledge regarding His name in all of history prior to His incarnation hints strongly at a pre-life revelation and forgetfulness was due to sin as per Romans 1:18 to the end, and second, that John 1:9, which says that every man comes into the world, being that it can imply every man's pre-conception existence, also hints strongly at a pre-life revelation of the name of YHWH's Son.
 
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bbbbbbb

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People's suppression of the truth they know so they do not remember does not trump the truth that they indeed know it as told in the bible...

What do you do with people who have no grasp of biblical truth whatsoever? That not only includes billions of people, alive as well as dead, who never had the slightest contact with Christianity, but also those unbelievers who died either as stillborn babies or in infancy, or the class of folks who have exceedingly limited mental abilities.
 
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bbbbbbb

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The long (though not complete) version just for you...

(Get ready. This is a pretty tough section. This meat has been dried in the sun, which makes for pretty hard chewing. Bet by the time you are finished you'll be wondering if you've been dried in the sun too!)

It seems to be a fact of life that only some people get to hear the gospel of the truth about YHWH. Indeed, it would probably be accepted as a true fact in any courtroom, that the greater part of mankind has lived and died without possessing any knowledge of YHWH at all. This seems to be an irrefutable historical fact, but this fact seems to be contradicted by such Scriptures as Psalm 9:17, Isaiah 40:21, John 3:18, and Romans 1:18-32 (all of which are dealt with in this category) simply because these Scriptures lead us to believe that everyone knows or has known about YHWH and HIS intention to judge every one who does not have faith / believe in HIM.

Now if this interpretation is correct (and it is), then we are left with the questions of how and when did each person hear the plain truth about YHWH, and why does the vast majority of mankind appear ignorant of this revealed truth? I believe that pre-conception theology offers a better solution to these questions and this paradox than any other does.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget GOD. NASV The wicked shall return to Sheol, even all the nations who forget GOD.
Kiel - Delitzsch Commentary(#22): Yea, back to Hades must the wicked return, all the heathen, that forget GOD.
We looked at the first part of this verse earlier on under GOING BACK. There we concluded that for the wicked to go back to Sheol, they had to have left it at some time. Now in the second part of the verse, we can also see that these same returnees have forgotten GOD. (The KJV “and” is not in the Hebrew text. That is why it is italicised in many KJV Bibles.)

Now to my mind it is possible to look on the forgetting of GOD in only one way, that being that it means the rejection and putting away of YHWH's self-attesting witness and HIS prophecy - warning of eternal judgement, which to have put away, they must have previously received.

Now the thing we have to determine is exactly when they received it, and so far as this apology is concerned, the question boils down to whether this revelation is received in this life or whether it is received before this life.

Now I do not believe that it is necessary to go into all the short comings of all the in-life theories right now because in this case, all I have to do is appeal to the first part of this verse on account of the fact that it clearly supports pre-conception theology in that it speaks of their return to Sheol, the KJV's insistence on translating the word shuv as opposite to its ordinary meaning notwithstanding.

Therefore may I suggest that since the first part of this verse clearly can imply our pre-conception existence, that constitutes a fairly strong witness that the time when David believed that the wicked received the revelation of YHWH and HIS judgement was also previous to this life.

Isaiah 40:21 Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? Hath it not been told you from the beginning? Have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
First of all, from the context (you could read it) we can determine that what they have known, heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is the almighty sovereign GOD (Isaiah 40:10). That is what they have received.

Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah is not asking questions. He is giving answers.

Next, we should try to determine the time when they received this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether they received it during this life or pre-earth life. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say that the words, if taken straight forwardly, seem to say that this knowledge was received at the time of the foundation of the Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for everyone, at least since Adam and Eve. Isaiah's answer is an exact match to pre-conception theology, simple and straightforward.

John 3:16 For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For GOD sent not HIS Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GOD. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world. And men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
The proper understanding of these verses depends, first of all, upon the meaning ascribed to the word “world”. May I submit that this word means Adam and all his children? I think that this is in accord with the Greek, as Mr. Vine(#23) states: (the Greek word) “Kosmos is used to denote, by metonymy, the human race, mankind.”

And does GOD love just some of mankind, that is, only the ones living since Jesus came that have heard the gospel? No, HE loves the BC ones too. (Believe it!) Therefore the “world” must include everyone since Adam.

Secondly, proper understanding depends upon the meaning we ascribe to the words “condemned already." I believe that we must consider the condemnation as being already present before they heard the gospel in this life, which means that they would be under condemnation even before Jesus incarnated.

In other words, Jesus' incarnation did not result in the condemnation of unbelieving men, they were condemned already, that is, they loved the darkness before He came. He came to save them from the condemnation they were under.

[ASIDE: According to these definitions, I believe that we can read the verse like this: For GOD so loved Adam and his children that HE gave HIS unique Son, that whosoever of them should come to believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. For GOD sent not HIS Son unto Adam and his children to condemn them, but that they, through faith in Him, might be saved. Adam and those like him, that have returned to the Shepherd of their souls and now have a belief in Him that will continue forever, are no longer under condemnation, but those who still do not profess such a belief in Him, are still under condemnation that results from not believing in the previously revealed Name of the unique Son of GOD.]

Now in verse 18 John says that the reason for the condemnation that was present before He incarnated was unbelief in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD, that is, unbelief in the person of Jesus and all that He stands for. Now in regard to this unbelief, something we have to establish is why they do not believe? What is the nature of their faithlessness?

For instance, should we read the verse, “those that believeth not on account of their ignorance in that they have never heard about the Son, are condemned already because they have omitted believing in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD?”
Or,
should we read the verse, “they that have refused to believe are condemned already because they have refused to believe in the Name of the only begotten Son?”

Now, the first interpretation seems to give an explanation for the condemnation of all those who have never heard about Jesus in this life, that is, their sin is a sin of omission. They have failed to do that which is expected of them and necessary for their salvation. This seems somewhat reasonable but, to believe that some people perish for lack of the knowledge of salvation, one must first deny either the sovereignty of GOD or the infiniteness of HIS love.

Their condemnation on account of their ignorance means that if He loves them and is trying to get the message of HIS Son to them, HE is failing in what HE is attempting to do. Or it means that if HE is able to get HIS message to them, HE does not love them enough to send it.

Therefore, it seems that this idea of their condemnation on account of their ignorant omission of faith is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD, and we should not interpret Scripture in a way that denies the character of GOD should we?

Well, since the first interpretation is untenable with the attributes of GOD, then we are left with only the second, that is, that the entire unbelieving world is condemned because they have refused to believe in the Name or Person of the Son of GOD.

Now this conclusion regarding the nature of their unbelief leads us to another conclusion, that is: that for there to be a refusal to believe in His Name, there must have been a prior revelation of His Name. In other words, for there to be a rebellion, there must first be a known authority (revealed God) to rebel against.

Now, two things show that there was such a self-attesting revelation given to all men.
First, it is shown by what John says in 3:19, that the Light has been shown to the world (that is, to Adam and his children) but some men preferred darkness to Him, that is, disbelief to belief, disobedience to obedience. The men he is talking about all refused to believe in the Son. Their sin was not a sin of omission. They had received the self-attesting revelation of the Light, that is, of the Son.

Second, that every unbelieving man in history is included in this rebellious group, that is, that the revelation is universal, is proven by John 1:9 the true Light, which lighteth every man.

From this verse, we can see that every person on Earth has received or seen the Light, that is, Jesus, even those who lived before He came and the gospel was proclaimed.

Now, having established these facts of the universal revelation of His Name and the rebellion of all unbelieving men, we are faced with the question as to when each and every person received the revelation of the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD? Once again so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether this revelation was received before life began or whether it was received during this life.

I believe that there are two things that bear witness that this revelation is received before this life begins (and is subsequently forgotten).

The first is the complete absence, before He incarnated, of any unscriptural testimony regarding the name of YHWH's Son. I think that if every BC person received the revelation of His Name in this life, someone would have written it down, or at least remembered it and talked about it to someone else. In other words, I think that the truth about Him would have been fairly well known before He came.

Secondly, I think that John also gives us a fairly strong indication that this revelation was given before life began in John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

If every man comes into the world, then every man must exist before he comes into the world. Therefore, I believe that these two things bear witness that the revelation of the name of YHWH's Son that is given to every person, was given before life began.

Well, as you no doubt noticed, this is a fairly drawn out argument. Therefore perhaps a short summary would be of some profit.

First, we saw that the entire unbelieving world was condemned already, that is, even before He came.

Second, we saw that the unbelievers are under condemnation for faithlessness in His Name.

Third, we saw that the sin of omission is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD and that John 1:9 bears witness that the entire world has received the revelation of His Name.

For these reasons we concluded that the unbelievers' sin was a sin of rebellion rather than a sin of omission, which universal rebellion necessitates a previous universal revelation of His Name. This is probably mentioned in Colossians 1:23 as the verb proclaimed is a finished past act...even though it has not yet been fulfilled on earth.

Finally, in regard to the time of the universal revelation of His Name, we felt first, that the lack of knowledge regarding His name in all of history prior to His incarnation hints strongly at a pre-life revelation and forgetfulness was due to sin as per Romans 1:18 to the end, and second, that John 1:9, which says that every man comes into the world, being that it can imply every man's pre-conception existence, also hints strongly at a pre-life revelation of the name of YHWH's Son.

Thank for the lengthy reply. Do you agree with me that virtually every person on earth will end up in the lake of fire and only a teensy-weensy proportion of humanity will make it to heaven?
 
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Neogaia777

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Do you agree with me that virtually every person on earth will end up in the lake of fire and only a teensy-weensy proportion of humanity will make it to heaven?

Do you really think that, or think you can really know that for sure?

I'd advise you to be very careful with your answer...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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What do you do with people who have no grasp of biblical truth whatsoever? That not only includes billions of people, alive as well as dead, who never had the slightest contact with Christianity, but also those unbelievers who died either as stillborn babies or in infancy, or the class of folks who have exceedingly limited mental abilities.
Salvation is not based on knowledge, etc, and, in fact, it could actually make salvation much more difficult in some cases, etc...

And as for people who never heard of the Gospel, or don't know the slightest thing about the Bible, and maybe only very, very little about Jesus Christ, or maybe not at all about him, or have never heard about him, etc, or also maybe those who have heard, but never came to enough knowledge to truly know or fully understand about the Bible and/or Him, etc, the Bible says (basically) that they will be held either more or less accountable (depending) to the truths they knew to be either more or less right or wrong in their own hearts or consciences, etc, but maybe did not fully adhere to, or maybe flat out violated and blatantly contradicted/went against sometimes, etc, anyway, the Bible says they will be held accountable (or not) by that, etc, more or less, etc...

Specific judgement is complicated since even Jesus while he was here did not even fully know, etc, and individual judgement even very much more so, or is even very much more complicated, etc, since it is up to God the Father's discretion, where Jesus went to after he ascended, but that is supposed to return from there one day fully knowing, but that he did not fully know fully while he was here, etc, etc, etc...

Anyway, and we are still limited by that, etc...

Are innocent babies saved, or are severely mentally deficient people saved, etc, etc, etc, and so on and so forth, etc...?

Human logic and/or reason tells us that they maybe should be, etc, but can we know for sure in every single case specifically, etc...?

Right now, I don't know that we can, etc, and the same applies to everyone and everything else as well, etc, we just can't know any of that for sure right now, etc...

It's far too complicated, etc...

And scripture will tell you/me/us only one of two things on this unfortunately, and that is either that there are a ton of conditions that must be met by everyone equally in order to be saved even though not all are equal, etc, or it will tell us that there are almost no conditions at all that anyone needs to fully live up to ever, even though some should maybe have to, since not all are created equal, etc, but it is my thoughts that it will be somewhere in-between, etc, and that judgement will not be equal for everybody, or at least won't at first seem to be equal for everbody, etc, and that it will be different and will be in all kinds of different areas for everybody, all belonging to either Jesus (when he returns) or God the Father's or God the Spirit's own discretion when Jesus returns, etc, and that, from a human standpoint, it will not at all seem to be at first equal for anybody at first, etc, from a human standpoint, etc, but will actually be perfectly equal (or completely fair/right/just, etc) for everybody, etc...

Right now we should not be judging anything or anyone or anybody for sure right now about anything (before the appointed time) (when Jesus comes back, etc) right now currently, etc...

We don't know if it will be many, or few, and we most definitely do not know, and cannot know, how each individual one will judged each individually specifically, etc...

And I believe the very deepest parts/depths of hell are specifically reserved for those ones who think they can either be or play God in this area specifically, etc, since that is what they are doing specifically, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Salvation is not based on knowledge, etc, and, in fact, it could actually make salvation much more difficult in some cases, etc...

And as for people who never heard of the Gospel, or don't know the slightest thing about the Bible, and maybe only very, very little about Jesus Christ, or maybe not at all about him, or have never heard about him, etc, or also maybe those who have heard, but never came to enough knowledge to truly know or fully understand about the Bible and/or Him, etc, the Bible says (basically) that they will be held either more or less accountable (depending) to the truths they knew to be either more or less right or wrong in their own hearts or consciences, etc, but maybe did not fully adhere to, or maybe flat out violated and blatantly contradicted/went against sometimes, etc, anyway, the Bible says they will be held accountable (or not) by that, etc, more or less, etc...

Specific judgement is complicated since even Jesus while he was here did not even fully know, etc, and individual judgement even very much more so, or is even very much more complicated, etc, since it is up to God the Father's discretion, where Jesus went to after he ascended, but that is supposed to return from there one day fully knowing, but that he did not fully know fully while he was here, etc, etc, etc...

Anyway, and we are still limited by that, etc...

Are innocent babies saved, or are severely mentally deficient people saved, etc, etc, etc, and so on and so forth, etc...?

Human logic and/or reason tells us that they maybe should be, etc, but can we know for sure in every single case specifically, etc...?

Right now, I don't know that we can, etc, and the same applies to everyone and everything else as well, etc, we just can't know any of that for sure right now, etc...

It's far too complicated, etc...

And scripture will tell you/me/us only one of two things on this unfortunately, and that is either that there are a ton of conditions that must be met by everyone equally in order to be saved even though not all are equal, etc, or it will tell us that there are almost no conditions at all that anyone needs to fully live up to ever, even though some should maybe have to, since not all are created equal, etc, but it is my thoughts that it will be somewhere in-between, etc, and that judgement will not be equal for everybody, or at least won't at first seem to be equal for everbody, etc, and that it will be different and will be in all kinds of different areas for everybody, all belonging to either Jesus (when he returns) or God the Father's or God the Spirit's own discretion when Jesus returns, etc, and that, from a human standpoint, it will not at all seem to be at first equal for anybody at first, etc, from a human standpoint, etc, but will actually be perfectly equal (or completely fair/right/just, etc) for everybody, etc...

Right now we should not be judging anything or anyone or anybody for sure right now about anything (before the appointed time) (when Jesus comes back, etc) right now currently, etc...

We don't know if it will be many, or few, and we most definitely do not know, and cannot know, how each individual one will judged each individually specifically, etc...

And I believe the very deepest parts/depths of hell are specifically reserved for those ones who think they can either be or play God in this area specifically, etc, since that is what they are doing specifically, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
I try to tell people that sin is, or can possibly be a risk, etc, and try to leave it at that, etc, because I think that is "the truth", etc, and then maybe ask them how much they really do want to gambling with their own salvation, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I try to tell people that sin is, or can possibly be a risk, etc, and try to leave it at that, etc, because I think that is "the truth", etc, and then maybe ask them how much they really do want to gambling with their own salvation, etc...

God Bless!
If a sin goes on too long, you may even be tempted to try and justify it before God, which I think is very dangerous place to be if you ask me specifically, but I still cannot tell you how each one will be judged absolutely in either case, or in any case, with each one in their own individual judgement specifically, etc...

I think it either is, or possibly can be a risk maybe, in either case specifically...

God Bless!
 
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bbbbbbb

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Salvation is not based on knowledge, etc, and, in fact, it could actually make salvation much more difficult in some cases, etc...

And as for people who never heard of the Gospel, or don't know the slightest thing about the Bible, and maybe only very, very little about Jesus Christ, or maybe not at all about him, or have never heard about him, etc, or also maybe those who have heard, but never came to enough knowledge to truly know or fully understand about the Bible and/or Him, etc, the Bible says (basically) that they will be held either more or less accountable (depending) to the truths they knew to be either more or less right or wrong in their own hearts or consciences, etc, but maybe did not fully adhere to, or maybe flat out violated and blatantly contradicted/went against sometimes, etc, anyway, the Bible says they will be held accountable (or not) by that, etc, more or less, etc...

Specific judgement is complicated since even Jesus while he was here did not even fully know, etc, and individual judgement even very much more so, or is even very much more complicated, etc, since it is up to God the Father's discretion, where Jesus went to after he ascended, but that is supposed to return from there one day fully knowing, but that he did not fully know fully while he was here, etc, etc, etc...

Anyway, and we are still limited by that, etc...

Are innocent babies saved, or are severely mentally deficient people saved, etc, etc, etc, and so on and so forth, etc...?

Human logic and/or reason tells us that they maybe should be, etc, but can we know for sure in every single case specifically, etc...?

Right now, I don't know that we can, etc, and the same applies to everyone and everything else as well, etc, we just can't know any of that for sure right now, etc...

It's far too complicated, etc...

And scripture will tell you/me/us only one of two things on this unfortunately, and that is either that there are a ton of conditions that must be met by everyone equally in order to be saved even though not all are equal, etc, or it will tell us that there are almost no conditions at all that anyone needs to fully live up to ever, even though some should maybe have to, since not all are created equal, etc, but it is my thoughts that it will be somewhere in-between, etc, and that judgement will not be equal for everybody, or at least won't at first seem to be equal for everbody, etc, and that it will be different and will be in all kinds of different areas for everybody, all belonging to either Jesus (when he returns) or God the Father's or God the Spirit's own discretion when Jesus returns, etc, and that, from a human standpoint, it will not at all seem to be at first equal for anybody at first, etc, from a human standpoint, etc, but will actually be perfectly equal (or completely fair/right/just, etc) for everybody, etc...

Right now we should not be judging anything or anyone or anybody for sure right now about anything (before the appointed time) (when Jesus comes back, etc) right now currently, etc...

We don't know if it will be many, or few, and we most definitely do not know, and cannot know, how each individual one will judged each individually specifically, etc...

And I believe the very deepest parts/depths of hell are specifically reserved for those ones who think they can either be or play God in this area specifically, etc, since that is what they are doing specifically, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Thanks! I enjoyed the use of etc. I appreciate your perspective. I certainly can't say who will or will not be saved. However, if one takes a hard line as TedT does, with abundant biblical backing, then the prospects of salvation for all but a few folks are really quite dim.

I am not sure at this point if TedT is willing to admit to my proposition that all but a teensy-weensy proportion of humanity will end up in the lake of fire. However, that is the logical conclusion one must come to if one follows his reasoning.
 
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Neogaia777

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Thanks! I enjoyed the use of etc. I appreciate your perspective. I certainly can't say who will or will not be saved. However, if one takes a hard line as TedT does, with abundant biblical backing, then the prospects of salvation for all but a few folks are really quite dim.

I am not sure at this point if TedT is willing to admit to my proposition that all but a teensy-weensy proportion of humanity will end up in the lake of fire. However, that is the logical conclusion one must come to if one follows his reasoning.
I could give you "abundant biblical backing" either way it can swing, or go, and much of what I have said just now has "abundant biblical backing" as well, and those who truly know their bibles will see that in what I said, etc...

I'm either getting lazy, or fed-up, or frustrated, or tired, or a combination of both and/or all of those things and more, etc, but I'm just not willing to put the amount of work or energy into it that it would take on here very much anymore, etc, and might be moving on from here very soon anyway, so that you won't see me on here nearly as much as you used to anymore, etc, just feels like a big waste of time to me anymore now anymore, and I feel like it was all mainly just preparation for me to where God wants to take me next anyway, but I think it's very sad that after over 22,000 posts of mine on here, it's seemed to not gotten anybody else anywhere, etc, so I might be moving away from here very soon, etc, after all, there is a whole active and alive and living world full of living people out there, and I need to be out there in it a lot more very, very, very soon, etc, as I feel like it is where God is going to be taking me next, etc... This is just "sad" on here anymore, etc...

God Bless!
 
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TedT

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Thank for the lengthy reply. Do you agree with me that virtually every person on earth will end up in the lake of fire and only a teensy-weensy proportion of humanity will make it to heaven?

I'm not personally convinced that Heb 9:27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment...is a correct rebuttal to the claims of pagans and non-Christian religions that mankind experiences reincarnation. If we should believe them in their reports that this is indeed what they experience, the impact on our theology is great. It does not deny reincarnation to me but it does deny that the hope of those reincarnated that they will be purified unto becoming God themselves, sooner or later, by the efficacy of karma. That is, there is no rehabilitation found in future lives, no edification to be found in future lives to being saved in Christ, ie, one life then the judgement.

Therefore I'm not convinced that the many condemned but few saved is an actual proof of the situation of what we experience, ie, the few may in fact outnumber the many by a great many but we experience that in such a way that while we know that most of our world is condemned while only a few are saved, we think that is an absolute while not thinking that most of the condemned ones might be repeats not actually adding to the numbers of condemned at all.

We know some, probably all, sinners come here from Sheol after being flung there by the war in heaven, Rev 12:4-9, because Psalm 9:17 tells us that the wicked RETURN to Sheol on their death. Jesus also told us that the sinful, ie, elect good seed and reprobate are sown here (from somewhere) not created here in Matt 13:36-39, a description of reality that does not deny the reincarnation of the reprobate.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I could give you "abundant biblical backing" either way it can swing, or go, and much of what I have said just now has "abundant biblical backing" as well, and those who truly know their bibles will see that in what I said, etc...

I'm either getting lazy, or fed-up, or frustrated, or tired, or a combination of both and/or all of those things and more, etc, but I'm just not willing to put the amount of work or energy into it that it would take on here very much anymore, etc, and might be moving on from here very soon anyway, so that you won't see me on here nearly as much as you used to anymore, etc, just feels like a big waste of time to me anymore now anymore, and I feel like it was all mainly just preparation for me to where God wants to take me next anyway, but I think it's very sad that after over 22,000 posts of mine on here, it's seemed to not gotten anybody else anywhere, etc, so I might be moving away from here very soon, etc, after all, there is a whole active and alive and living world full of living people out there, and I need to be out there in it a lot more very, very, very soon, etc, as I feel like it is where God is going to be taking me next, etc... This is just "sad" on here anymore, etc...

God Bless!

Thanks again. I am with you on not spending the time and effort to develop lengthy support for my positions here at CF as I realize that they will not sway anyone in their positions.

I also understanding that there is an equally strong argument from scripture that can be posed to that of TedT. Please don't think that I necessarily agree with him. For me, it is really a curious theological enigma which has absolutely zero impact on how I live my life from day to day.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I'm not personally convinced that Heb 9:27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment...is a correct rebuttal to the claims of pagans and non-Christian religions that mankind experiences reincarnation. If we should believe them in their reports that this is indeed what they experience, the impact on our theology is great. It does not deny reincarnation to me but it does deny that the hope of those reincarnated that they will be purified unto becoming God themselves, sooner or later, by the efficacy of karma. That is, there is no rehabilitation found in future lives, no edification to be found in future lives to being saved in Christ, ie, one life then the judgement.

Therefore I'm not convinced that the many condemned but few saved is an actual proof of the situation of what we experience, ie, the few may in fact outnumber the many by a great many but we experience that in such a way that while we know that most of our world is condemned while only a few are saved, we think that is an absolute while not thinking that most of the condemned ones might be repeats not actually adding to the numbers of condemned at all.

We know some, probably all, sinners come here from Sheol after being flung there by the war in heaven, Rev 12:4-9, because Psalm 9:17 tells us that the wicked RETURN to Sheol on their death. Jesus also told us that the sinful, ie, elect good seed and reprobate are sown here (from somewhere) not created here in Matt 13:36-39, a description of reality that does not deny the reincarnation of the reprobate.

Actually, the primary religions which believe in reincarnation, Hinduism and Buddhism, do not advocate the concept of becoming a god as the ultimate goal. That is a concept advocated by Mormonism, which does not believe in reincarnation. Nirvana, as understood by Hindus and Buddhists, is a state of non-existence. Reincarnation is merely the repetition of life in varying forms, with all of its attendant sorrows and struggles. The goal is to escape those sorrows and troubles. They do not believe that their gods are in a state of Nirvana. The Buddha, despite the extreme veneration (worship) accorded to him is not a god nor ever claimed to be so. What he did profess was to have been enlightened regarding the means by which one might achieve an ultimate state of nothingness.

That said, there are many variants of Buddhism which have adopted differing goals. Many have a concept of eternal bliss which is equivalent to heaven and that is their goal. Many others have a prosperity mindset in which the goal is to become exceedingly obese (hence the popular statues of an obese Buddha) and wealthy. I joke with my Hindu and Buddhist friends that if they are really, really good Hindus and Buddhists they will disappear, but if they are not so good they will be reincarnated as an obese, rich "Christian" American.
 
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TedT

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I am not sure at this point if TedT is willing to admit to my proposition that all but a teensy-weensy proportion of humanity will end up in the lake of fire. However, that is the logical conclusion one must come to if one follows his reasoning.
My answer is in post #74 which gives my tendency of thought about this topic, quite the opposite of your what you have concluded about my theology.

Actually, the primary religions which believe in reincarnation, Hinduism and Buddhism, do not advocate the concept of becoming a god as the ultimate goal.
I am no expert on other religions and have not looked at their offerings for some 50 years so I was not being definitive about who believes in reincarnation to what end but that reincarnation is a belief of many non-Christian sects and how that belief impinges upon my Christian understanding of reality.

A quick google search has reminded me that the goal of the atman is to return back to the over God, the Brahman and end the cycle of birth: "According to the Upanishads, atman and Brahman are part of the same substance; atman returns to Brahman when the atman is finally liberated and is no longer reincarnated. This return, or re-absorption into Brahman, is called moksha. When they merge at last into pure Being. There is nothing that does not come from him."...sounds like a definition of God to me.
cntd:
"Brahma (ब्रह्म) (nominative singular), brahman (ब्रह्मन्) (stem) (neuter gender) means the concept of the transcendent and immanent ultimate reality, Supreme Cosmic Spirit in Hinduism. The concept is central to Hindu philosophy, especially Vedanta; this is discussed below." and the word to describe the merging of the person into this supreme cosmic spirit, it TO BECOME GOD in my words is moksha: "Moksha is the ultimate spiritual goal of Hinduism. How does one pursue moksha? The goal is to reach a point where you detach yourself from the feelings and perceptions that tie you to the world, leading to the realization of the ultimate unity of things—the soul (atman) connected with the universal (Brahman)."

Whether others agree with this or not is immaterial to me. Whether souls are believed to become God or re-unite with God or realizes that it IS God is meaningless...my point was strictly to address the possibility and implications of reincarnation within Christianity.
 
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bbbbbbb

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My answer is in post #74 which gives my tendency of thought about this topic, quite the opposite of your what you have concluded about my theology.

I am no expert on other religions and have not looked at their offerings for some 50 years so I was not being definitive about who believes in reincarnation to what end but that reincarnation is a belief of many non-Christian sects and how that belief impinges upon my Christian understanding of reality.

A quick google search has reminded me that the goal of the atman is to return back to the over God, the Brahman and end the cycle of birth: "According to the Upanishads, atman and Brahman are part of the same substance; atman returns to Brahman when the atman is finally liberated and is no longer reincarnated. This return, or re-absorption into Brahman, is called moksha. When they merge at last into pure Being. There is nothing that does not come from him."...sounds like a definition of God to me.
cntd:
"Brahma (ब्रह्म) (nominative singular), brahman (ब्रह्मन्) (stem) (neuter gender) means the concept of the transcendent and immanent ultimate reality, Supreme Cosmic Spirit in Hinduism. The concept is central to Hindu philosophy, especially Vedanta; this is discussed below." and the word to describe the merging of the person into this supreme cosmic spirit, it TO BECOME GOD in my words is moksha: "Moksha is the ultimate spiritual goal of Hinduism. How does one pursue moksha? The goal is to reach a point where you detach yourself from the feelings and perceptions that tie you to the world, leading to the realization of the ultimate unity of things—the soul (atman) connected with the universal (Brahman)."

Whether others agree with this or not is immaterial to me. Whether souls are believed to become God or re-unite with God or realizes that it IS God is meaningless...my point was strictly to address the possibility and implications of reincarnation within Christianity.

Thanks.

Here is a standard definition of nirvana -

(in Buddhism) a transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of karma and the cycle of death and rebirth. It represents the final goal of Buddhism.
synonyms:
paradise · heaven · Eden · the promised land · bliss · blessedness · ecstasy · joy · peace · serenity · tranquility · enlightenment · oblivion
  • another term for moksha.
  • a state of perfect happiness; an ideal or idyllic place:
    "Hollywood's dearest dream of small-town nirvana"
I apologize for my misunderstanding of your theology. In a general sense, approximately what proportion of humanity do you think will make it to heaven?
 
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