The Ugly Face of Socialism

[Antigone]

Typical response of someone who has no argument.

No, I bet it's a typical response of someone who is tired of being bludgeoned to death with the same, tired old and continuously incorrect arguments.

A girl can relate.

 

[StThomasMore]

If a job does not create enough value that it can provide a living wage, I'd suggest it isn't a job worth doing.

I work in the medical industry. I produce catheters that are 60$ each. I work with engineers to produce around 300 a day. Thats $18,000 worth of product a day I make. Yet 18,000$ is over half of what I earn in a year.

Same with the drug industry. For instance, my mother takes a pill that costs only 1$ a make, yet it is ramped up to 12$ a pill on the market.

Most workers are not truly getting paid what they should based on inflation in the U.S. Also blue collar workers contribute more to society, since they are the ones actually building the infrastructure, roads, buildings, pipes, and keeping the resources flowing, like food, oil, water, and electricity. Yet a plastic surgeon who puts fake silicon implants in women's breasts gets paid much more than these people and what do silicon breasts contribute to society? Or a basketball player who gets paid 10 million a year to throw a ball in a hoop? Or a scummy divorce lawyer just giving divorces to people? Are you telling me throwing a ball in a hoop is of more value than making a building or giving electricity to the people? So as far as people getting paid what their work value is, is a joke. In fact it seems the more superficial and useless the things they produce or create, the more they actually get paid.

In fact the top 25 countries with the best income equality, the U.S. is not even on the list. Saudi Arabia and India even beat the U.S. as far as giving fairer wages! lol Sweden, Canada, Japan, Germany and Denmark were at the top 5.

And regarding the 10 ten countries with the worst wage inequality? The U.S. is rated number 4. Right under Turkey, Mexico and Chile. Out of all the countries in the world the U.S is rated the 4th worst country regarding wage inequality. And people wonder why its capitalism has gone out of control. In the yahoo list the U.S was rated the 3rd worst country . The rich are getting more vicious and greedy in their quest for wealth. The exploitation towards the economically deprived class is getting more meaner thus is getting more obvious. The so called taxes which was intended to serve the needs of the poor is simply a failure. As these taxes just get pumped back in militarism and corporatism. But it does underscore what happens to a country in which the wealthy live on the backs of the poor . for evidence, check these Mother Jones charts that illustrate why Congress is friendlier to Wall Street than Main Street.

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-bu...s-with-the-biggest-gaps-between-rich-and-poor

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...y_n_865869.html#s282630&title=4_United_States

 

[StThomasMore]

Sweden or Denmark would be one example. Italy might be another.

Then again, in Sweden, one family owns most of the big corporations. And if you look at professional salaries in those countries...they're just pathetic. I suppose a busdriver would make more than he would in the US...but that's not saying much. And good luck acquiring capital on a Swedish bus driver's salary...maybe if the cost of living were the same as it was in Thailand...but not in Sweden. No sirree.

In fact...even a surgeon in scandinavia doesn't make enough to acquire real capital.

I guess there's less pressure over there, because until recently anyway there were no bad areas you had to pay to avoid (key words: until recently). Until recently there was very little crime. And if a bus driver and a nurse make the same, very little reason to kill yourself going to nursing school.

The main advantage of Scandinavia in my mind is that this whole cancerous ghetto culture is less pervasive over there. In fact, much could be said about most of the developed world. Then again, if those countries are as committed to mass immigration and militant secularism as they seem...good luck is all I can say. At the risk of offending some of the Europeans on this forum...have you seen how trashy white Europeans act when they get a little bit of booze in them? It's absolutely mindboggling the violence and anti-social behavior over there. Not to mention the skyrocketing crime rates (as opposed to falling rates in America. Mainly this is because in America we still imprison people occasionally. And in Europe they seem to just coddle them, loudly scream about how superior Europe is, then put their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la la la la evidence to the contrary shall not be heard la la la la la la la") But I digress...

But yes, I agree with your example of Scandinavia.

Luckily mortgage rates are low in Sweden. But cost of living is fairly the same, in fact it is a little lower in sweden. However Median income is around 700 less after taxes. A combo MCdonalds meal is around 1 buck/euro more in Sweden. Sweden has a much higher rated quality of life though than America. Sweden is rated 6, whereas the US is rated 19, right under Singapore. Rent in the US is rated at 40.
24 index, Sweden's index rating is 30.00. However Switzerland is 62.06 and Denmark is 53.94


Sweden

Rent Per Month [Edit] Avg.
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 578.26 €



Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 401.03 €



Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre 913.44 €



Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 689.44 €



Buy Apartment Price [Edit] Avg.
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 4,496.03



Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 2,688.83 €



Salaries And Financing [Edit] Avg.
Median Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 2,103.28



Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentanges (%), Yearly 3.80

United States

Rent Per Month [Edit] Avg.
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 896.85 $



Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 702.81 $



Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre 1,556.12 $



Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 1,236.43 $



Buy Apartment Price [Edit] Avg.
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 1,894.75 $



Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 1,271.09 $



Salaries And Financing [Edit] Avg.
Median Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 2,771.94



Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentanges (%), Yearly 5.10

 

[Erose]

No, I bet it's a typical response of someone who is tired of being bludgeoned to death with the same, tired old and continuously incorrect arguments.

A girl can relate.

Then explain to me where my argument is wrong? Don't try to be insulting or belittling because you don't have an argument. If you are tired of being bludgeoned to death then all you have to do is not read. Pretty simple. What I would like for some to do is think about what they are agreeing with instead of just accepting what they are being told by the media or someone the media loves and will not fact check. Do your own research.

 

[MKJ]

I work in the medical industry. I produce catheters that are 60$ each. I work with engineers to produce around 300 a day. Thats $18,000 worth of product a day I make. Yet 18,000$ is over half of what I earn in a year.

Same with the drug industry. For instance, my mother takes a pill that costs only 1$ a make, yet it is ramped up to 12$ a pill on the market.

Most workers are not truly getting paid what they should based on inflation in the U.S. Also blue collar workers contribute more to society, since they are the ones actually building the infrastructure, roads, buildings, pipes, and keeping the resources flowing, like food, oil, water, and electricity. Yet a plastic surgeon who puts fake silicon implants in women's breasts gets paid much more than these people and what do silicon breasts contribute to society? Or a basketball player who gets paid 10 million a year to throw a ball in a hoop? Or a scummy divorce lawyer just giving divorces to people? Are you telling me throwing a ball in a hoop is of more value than making a building or giving electricity to the people? So as far as people getting paid what their work value is, is a joke. In fact it seems the more superficial and useless the things they produce or create, the more they actually get paid.

In fact the top 25 countries with the best income equality, the U.S. is not even on the list. Saudi Arabia and India even beat the U.S. as far as giving fairer wages! lol Sweden, Canada, Japan, Germany and Denmark were at the top 5.

And regarding the 10 ten countries with the worst wage inequality? The U.S. is rated number 4. Right under Turkey, Mexico and Chile. Out of all the countries in the world the U.S is rated the 4th worst country regarding wage inequality. And people wonder why its capitalism has gone out of control. In the yahoo list the U.S was rated the 3rd worst country . The rich are getting more vicious and greedy in their quest for wealth. The exploitation towards the economically deprived class is getting more meaner thus is getting more obvious. The so called taxes which was intended to serve the needs of the poor is simply a failure. As these taxes just get pumped back in militarism and corporatism. But it does underscore what happens to a country in which the wealthy live on the backs of the poor . for evidence, check these Mother Jones charts that illustrate why Congress is friendlier to Wall Street than Main Street.

countries-with-the-biggest-gaps-between-rich-and-poor: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

10 Countries With The Worst Income Inequality: OECD

First: the way we value work is indeed messed up. A perfect example is that one cannot actually make a living havesting food, the most basic of human needs. There is no way to argue we don't need food, but we will not pay the true cost for it, so the producers and workers are not getting a living wage, even though their daily work is worth it.

On the other hand, we pay sports entertainers as you have noted.

All totally bizarre.

But that wasn't really my point. My point was that if someone is going to work all day, no one would work for themselves doing something that does not actually produce enough for them to live. That would be dumb and at the end of the day, they wouldn't eat.

A whole days work should be enough to supply a days needs, plus extra. If it wasn't, we would have been lost as a species long ago, and would never have managed to produce any kind of civilization.

And yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the company you work for is giving you inadequate remuneration for your work - that is the normal result of capitalism.

That wasn't really my point though. My point was that if a worker really cannot produce a value equivalent to his days needs, at least, doing any particular job, then the job is not worth having a person doing it. Why would anyone hire someone for such a position?

 

[Antigone]

Then explain to me where my argument is wrong?

Sure.

Just read any of the preceding pages.

Don't try to be insulting or belittling because you don't have an argument.

Neither do you (cf. pages 1-45) but that hasn't stopped you so far.

If you are tired of being bludgeoned to death then all you have to do is not read. Pretty simple.

No, it's not 'pretty simple'. You're systematically slandering everything I stand for and you won't listen to rationale. So yes, if you continue to act in this way then you can be darn sure I'm going to mock, since reason doesn't seem to have any effect.

What I would like for some to do is think about what they are agreeing with instead of just accepting what they are being told by media or someone the media loves and will not fact check. Do your own research.

That's funny, because that's exactly what I want you to do. Find some REAL sources, not some obscure blogs. Switch off Fox News. Read. Educate yourself. For the love of God, stop slandering those with different political preferences.

And then we'll have a good talk.

 

[WarriorAngel]

What was warned would happen if Obama got in office, has happened.

What more can be argued when the proof is the mess he made - in less than 2 years...in fact within 100 days.

WHAT good has he done??

 

[Baqueinfaith]

Then explain to me where my argument is wrong? Don't try to be insulting or belittling because you don't have an argument. If you are tired of being bludgeoned to death then all you have to do is not read. Pretty simple. What I would like for some to do is think about what they are agreeing with instead of just accepting what they are being told by the media or someone the media loves and will not fact check. Do your own research.

Haven't you learned anything by now?

This thread is where you make claims like "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] all the conservatives want to kill all of the poor because they are fascists", then start reporting/trying to get banned anyone who dares argue with you.

 

[Baqueinfaith]

Luckily mortgage rates are low in Sweden. But cost of living is fairly the same, in fact it is a little lower in sweden. However Median income is around 700 less after taxes. A combo MCdonalds meal is around 1 buck/euro more in Sweden. Sweden has a much higher rated quality of life though than America. Sweden is rated 6, whereas the US is rated 19, right under Singapore. Rent in the US is rated at 40.
24 index, Sweden's index rating is 30.00. However Switzerland is 62.06 and Denmark is 53.94


Sweden

Rent Per Month [Edit] Avg.
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 578.26 €



Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 401.03 €



Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre 913.44 €



Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 689.44 €



Buy Apartment Price [Edit] Avg.
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 4,496.03



Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 2,688.83 €



Salaries And Financing [Edit] Avg.
Median Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 2,103.28



Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentanges (%), Yearly 3.80

United States

Rent Per Month [Edit] Avg.
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 896.85 $



Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 702.81 $



Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre 1,556.12 $



Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 1,236.43 $



Buy Apartment Price [Edit] Avg.
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 1,894.75 $



Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 1,271.09 $



Salaries And Financing [Edit] Avg.
Median Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 2,771.94



Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentanges (%), Yearly 5.10

This wasn't supposed to turn into a Europe vs. the US argument. I have enough of that from every. single. european. I. ever. meet. Seriously

However,

Am I reading this right?

Sweden:
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 4,496.03

Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 2,688.83 €

US:

Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 1,894.75 $

Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 1,271.09 $

That is quite a big difference in price. More than double. Even at a low exchange rate (for Euro, no idea about SEK) you're bordering on triple for an apartment outside of the city center.

But, even this is sort of meaningless.

Most Americans do not live in apartments outside of major cities or college towns. And in those places it seems to be overwhelmingly a luxury market. For example, in Austin, TX, which is a boomtown with generally cheap real estate...I'll let you in on some househunting I did with some relatives of mine.

Property one:
House. On a private golf course/country club. Gated community. The house is stand alone, with front and back yard. About 2,500 square feet, which makes it around 275 square meters. All spanish tile, and hand knit curtains on the windows. High ceilings. About a 20 minute drive, but not a lot of traffic. New Construction. $220,000

Property 2:
Downtown condo. Not in any of the top of the line 500 foot condos, but a luxury building, nonetheless. 700 square foot, so about 66-67 square meters. New build. No golf course, gym membership, or any of that jazz. Tens of thousands per year in additional building fees, beyond your mortgage. Price? $250K.

And this is pretty typical for America. See what I mean, the apartments/condos are either college kids (whose parents buy them luxury places) or luxury places that are three times the local housing price. It's just not a fair comparison to make.

Also, you have to realize as well, that there's a 3 year waiting list to get an apartment in Stockholm, at least, because every building is rent-controlled. Nobody actually waits that long, because they get a place under the table as a fourth sublet, at far above the "market" rate.

Now the question is, in Sweden, are they counting student dormitories as apartments? Because they tend to sort of be legally built that way over there, and they seem to be technically classed as studio apartments. And those are subsidized. So I bet that is bringing down the average, and its not really relevant to the discussion, either.
You might say "an apartment is an apartment", and for singles, it's whatever. But I'm worried mostly about the lower middle class with young families.
Those student apartments are way too small for two people much less a family, whereas a one bedroom in the US, you could cram a wife, a kid, and possibly a gerbil in there without sacrificing your quality of life.

That might further explain why the average unit cost is lower, but the square footage cost is far higher. A multitude of tiny, subsidized places bringing down the unit cost?

And I bet to differ on cost of living in Sweden. Not to mention Italy or France. Or Germany for that matter.

In fact, once I started to give a really detailed answer on this to a Swedish girl who was sincerely asking online (before everyone just started calling Americans extremist Nazis). I went online and looked for some of the items she mentioned, got representative prices from the horses mouth, of exactly the same item and...low and behold, Sweden was about twice as expensive.

Or, you could look at the Purchasing Power Parity adjustments done. Or you at our GDP per capita, which in raw numbers isn't too bad, but shoots up when adjusted for cost of living. It was far ahead of Sweden in any case.

And the UN Human Development Index for 2011 put the US in 4th place.

Income inequality doesn't mean much when you're still a pretty homogeneous society. Stockholm has a good what, 15% immigrants from the third world. Malmo a little more. The rest of the country is all a bunch of Swedes and Finns.

Now look at US population demographics, and tell me what you see. You can't bring 1 million new illegal immigrants every year to Norwegian standards of living. Neither could the Norwegians. Or the Swedes.

It's all well and good (and by well and good, I mean annoying and cliched) to rant about how awful the US fascist corporate conservative christian arrogant fat redneck mcdonald's eating State is, but then you start looking at reality.

The point is, no Sweden is no utopia. I'm not saying it's an awful place to live--in fact I'm seriously considering immigrating over there myself (though I would integrate at whatever cost, until my brown hair and brown eyes give me away,and I get bottles thrown at me*), but, some Americans have a way, way, way too idealized view of the Europe, Scandinavia especially.

*This actually happened in Bavaria. Many times. And I look Italian. And no it wasn't from Neo-Nazis, it was from 40 year old business men

 

[StThomasMore]

First: the way we value work is indeed messed up. A perfect example is that one cannot actually make a living havesting food, the most basic of human needs. There is no way to argue we don't need food, but we will not pay the true cost for it, so the producers and workers are not getting a living wage, even though their daily work is worth it.

On the other hand, we pay sports entertainers as you have noted.

All totally bizarre.

But that wasn't really my point. My point was that if someone is going to work all day, no one would work for themselves doing something that does not actually produce enough for them to live. That would be dumb and at the end of the day, they wouldn't eat.

A whole days work should be enough to supply a days needs, plus extra. If it wasn't, we would have been lost as a species long ago, and would never have managed to produce any kind of civilization.

And yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the company you work for is giving you inadequate remuneration for your work - that is the normal result of capitalism.

That wasn't really my point though. My point was that if a worker really cannot produce a value equivalent to his days needs, at least, doing any particular job, then the job is not worth having a person doing it. Why would anyone hire someone for such a position?

If we want that to work, we need to first decide what is "of value". Considering people who have jobs that help society make much less than people who have jobs that do very little if anything for society. Again, when I compared the 5,000$ breast implant to the 90$ work payday of the hard working construction worker. Obviously the U.S cannot see the true meaning of value with regards to the job market, since people are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money on things that have little to no value. to rid the high wages of useless jobs, like plastic surgeons, movie stars, sports entertainers, cosmetics dealers, tv show hosts, rock stars, fashion divas, models, reality shows, etc. Since these people do not produce anything of value to a normal persons daily needs and actually probably dumb down them in the long run. Money to these areas is money down the gutter and does nothing but increase inflation. If people would stop giving money to these people who contribute nothing to society, there would be a surplus of money that could help contribute to giving living wages to people who have honorable jobs.

Then one would give a living wage to the people who actually contribute to society and have actual value and hard work ethic behind their work. This would be farmers, welders, grain operators, engineers, electricians, masons, brick layers, assembly producers and workers, cooks, energy and drilling workers, construction workers, social workers, firefighters, and health workers. Jobs that contribute to the bulwark of society should be the high paying jobs. Farmers especially. The sweat and tears of a hard working farmer is worth more than the income of 100 Kim Kardashians.

 

[Baqueinfaith]

First: the way we value work is indeed messed up. A perfect example is that one cannot actually make a living havesting food, the most basic of human needs. There is no way to argue we don't need food, but we will not pay the true cost for it, so the producers and workers are not getting a living wage, even though their daily work is worth it.

On the other hand, we pay sports entertainers as you have noted.

All totally bizarre.

But that wasn't really my point. My point was that if someone is going to work all day, no one would work for themselves doing something that does not actually produce enough for them to live. That would be dumb and at the end of the day, they wouldn't eat.

A whole days work should be enough to supply a days needs, plus extra. If it wasn't, we would have been lost as a species long ago, and would never have managed to produce any kind of civilization.

And yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the company you work for is giving you inadequate remuneration for your work - that is the normal result of capitalism.

That wasn't really my point though. My point was that if a worker really cannot produce a value equivalent to his days needs, at least, doing any particular job, then the job is not worth having a person doing it. Why would anyone hire someone for such a position?

I can think of a few points here.

Number 1, wages are terrible because we've exported our labor intensive industries abroad. Where those jobs still exist, even non-unionized, they pay pretty decent salaries, plus benefits. It's not really to do with what regulation you do or you don't have, there are just some jobs that will naturally pay more, and some that won't. Bring steel, cars, trains, computers, radios, TVs, textile, toys, machine tools, coal, and all the rest back over here.

Number 2: Stop letting in millions of third world immigrants every year. It looks great on balance sheets, and is great for people who eat at their (absolutely delicious, amazing) restaurants, and who get the cheap lawn care and what not, but it's actually pretty horrible for the average joe on BOTH sides.

Immigration to the US from Mexico is even ripping up the fabric of small, traditional towns over there. It's leading to skyrocketing prices (because of remittances). Not to mention, it's robbing them of some of their most ambitious. It's damaging their pride in themselves, their culture, and their country. It's hurting real hope for change. And for what? So they can make 10 or 15 an hour, in Orange County, crammed one dozen to the house, waiting outside on street corners looking for work?

They've displaced black Americans from those jobs, that they actually used to do. That's actually the community that's been hurt most.

But also, some kid, from some close knit California or New Jersey, where his family has lived for generations, who used to know everyone by name, now wakes up to find that he can't even speak the same language as 70% of his neighbors. And everyone he knew and cared for is leaving. His culture has been destroyed too. And yes, Americans have culture, as much as hollywood tries to make sure we don't.

And the job he had that used to pay 20/hour with benefits now is minimum wage, if that is even enforced, because there's a million migrant workers they can hire within the hour if he so much as complains.

I think it's the Rerum Novarum that also notes that progress has to be measured in building a cohesive community. What we've done to our country, and theirs, and Puerto Rico's (though for slightly different reasons), and Cuba's (though for very different reasons), certainly doesn't qualify as that.

If I were dictator the US, except I can't touch abortion, I'd pretty much spend all my time begging industry to come back to the US. And if that doesn't work, slipping some money in their pockets. And if that doesn't work, coercion. And if that doesn't work, fund every little start up you can imagine, and start looking for companies to buy out.

I'd also invest heavily in infrastructure. It wouldn't be too much new expenditures, mostly I'd take some of the excess road budget (I'm not against roads, but I think they should be balanced with other options) and slip it into ports, freight train tracks, PASSENGER rail, (and with large orders, you can get a production offset for some of the rolling stock), etc.

Nuclear energy would be the other big project. The US should have 100% of its power grid from renewables (which includes, and mostly, in my mind means, Nuclear).

 

[StThomasMore]

I can think of a few points here.

Number 1, wages are terrible because we've exported our labor intensive industries abroad. Where those jobs still exist, even non-unionized, they pay pretty decent salaries, plus benefits. It's not really to do with what regulation you do or you don't have, there are just some jobs that will naturally pay more, and some that won't. Bring steel, cars, trains, computers, radios, TVs, textile, toys, machine tools, coal, and all the rest back over here.

Number 2: Stop letting in millions of third world immigrants every year. It looks great on balance sheets, and is great for people who eat at their (absolutely delicious, amazing) restaurants, and who get the cheap lawn care and what not, but it's actually pretty horrible for the average joe on BOTH sides.

Immigration to the US from Mexico is even ripping up the fabric of small, traditional towns over there. It's leading to skyrocketing prices (because of remittances). Not to mention, it's robbing them of some of their most ambitious. It's damaging their pride in themselves, their culture, and their country. It's hurting real hope for change. And for what? So they can make 10 or 15 an hour, in Orange County, crammed one dozen to the house, waiting outside on street corners looking for work?

They've displaced black Americans from those jobs, that they actually used to do. That's actually the community that's been hurt most.

But also, some kid, from some close knit California or New Jersey, where his family has lived for generations, who used to know everyone by name, now wakes up to find that he can't even speak the same language as 70% of his neighbors. And everyone he knew and cared for is leaving. His culture has been destroyed too. And yes, Americans have culture, as much as hollywood tries to make sure we don't.

And the job he had that used to pay 20/hour with benefits now is minimum wage, if that is even enforced, because there's a million migrant workers they can hire within the hour if he so much as complains.

I think it's the Rerum Novarum that also notes that progress has to be measured in building a cohesive community. What we've done to our country, and theirs, and Puerto Rico's (though for slightly different reasons), and Cuba's (though for very different reasons), certainly doesn't qualify as that.

If I were dictator the US, except I can't touch abortion, I'd pretty much spend all my time begging industry to come back to the US. And if that doesn't work, slipping some money in their pockets. And if that doesn't work, coercion. And if that doesn't work, fund every little start up you can imagine, and start looking for companies to buy out.

I'd also invest heavily in infrastructure. It wouldn't be too much new expenditures, mostly I'd take some of the excess road budget (I'm not against roads, but I think they should be balanced with other options) and slip it into ports, freight train tracks, PASSENGER rail, (and with large orders, you can get a production offset for some of the rolling stock), etc.

Nuclear energy would be the other big project. The US should have 100% of its power grid from renewables (which includes, and mostly, in my mind means, Nuclear).

Maybe one day when Fusion reactors become the norm, but I think we will have to settle with fossil fuels until then.

If I were leader I definitely would make abortion illegal. I myself would work the most on lessening the gaping wage inequality among blue and white collar workers though. Get rid of spending on excessive militarism and useless government policy. Create an inflation law that would create a limit and ceiling on how far inflation can go up(incomes policy). Crack down on usury. Get rid of overpaid corrupt CEOs and replace them with work guilds(similar to Chesterton's idea on work guilds).Then use that money towards the wellbeing of the people as a whole, such as homeless shelters, mortgage relief, care of the elderly/sick, help for pregnant mothers with low money, and get ride of the minimum wage and institute a living wage/sliding scale type wage. Wgae should be based on the merit and honor of the work, rather than the title or degree of the person. Most of these problems could be solved by a proper living wage, since people would be able to support themselves and spend more of that money they earn into society. When people earn a low wage, all they do is try to save and rarely ever spend, which hurts the economy. A living wage would stimulate the economy since more people would be able to spend more often on the basic necessities of life.

 

[Baqueinfaith]

Nuclear is cheap, clean and proven technology. Unless you decide to skimp on building costs by not putting in containment fields (Chernobyl). Nuclear is quite safe.

More people die of lung cancer from any given coal mine than have died from nuclear incidents in American history.

"Get rid of spending on excessive militarism"

I wouldn't launch any wars, or continue any that are going on. I would downsize the military. But I'd definitely keep it large and strong, simply because those are jobs that blue collar workers can do with pride. And do. People work hard to get in the military.

"Create an inflation law that would create a limit and ceiling on how far inflation can go up"

Completely unworkable. And how do you enforce this?

" such as homeless shelters"

No. I see no reason why people should have to live near these glorified Opium dens. I'm paying a fortune in a "nice" area of a very wealthy city, and I've got a needle exchange van down my street.

It's fine for me, I guess. But I'm horrified about people who have to raise children here. Can we please keep the plague of drugs, if not illegal (as it should be), at least off to the side?

It's funny, everyone I've met here in the Bay Area who works with homeless professionally (meaning, professionally as in, their source of income and career), has told me they've completely changed their mind, and that they now think that most homeless are homeless because they want to be.

No crackhouses, homeless shelters, haflway homes for ex-cons, housing projects, or any other dens of depravity where normal, decent, people have to live.

 

[Baqueinfaith]

"When people earn a low wage, all they do is try to save and rarely ever spend, which hurts the economy."

In my home town, the poor neighborhoods, where the houses are all dilapidated, covered with weeds, kids wandering around with no supervision, , who I have on good authority are on state assistants...well, they drive better cars than my upper middle class neighborhood. In front of a decaying broken down home, you'll have a boat, a brand new pick up truck, and a Corvette.

Two guesses what "culture" these people come from.

 

[Baqueinfaith]

"A living wage would stimulate the economy since more people would be able to spend more often on the basic necessities of life."

The question is how to implement it.

For a country like America, I think my solution is the workable way out of this. Bring back industry at all costs, kick out the foreigners, institute a high minimum wage (15-20/hour).

 

[Davidnic]

moving to OBOB Political subforum

 

[StThomasMore]

"When people earn a low wage, all they do is try to save and rarely ever spend, which hurts the economy."

In my home town, the poor neighborhoods, where the houses are all dilapidated, covered with weeds, kids wandering around with no supervision, , who I have on good authority are on state assistants...well, they drive better cars than my upper middle class neighborhood. In front of a decaying broken down home, you'll have a boat, a brand new pick up truck, and a Corvette.

Two guesses what "culture" these people come from.

Ghetto culture? corvette and BMWs/Cadillac in front of a dilapidated home usually means a crackhouse, lol. So the nice things you see in poor neighborhoods tend to be made from crime usually

 

[StThomasMore]

"A living wage would stimulate the economy since more people would be able to spend more often on the basic necessities of life."

The question is how to implement it.

For a country like America, I think my solution is the workable way out of this. Bring back industry at all costs, kick out the foreigners, institute a high minimum wage (15-20/hour).

while there is an immigration problem, i don't think just "kicking them out" would exactly be a charitable thing to do. A high minimum wage would force companies , especially companies with not much capital or money out of business. That's why a wage should be something an employer and an employee can bargain on based on the workers basic living needs. However I don't agree with companies abusing the minimum wage when they can afford to pay better wages and increase the well-being of their workers. An inflation law would be a ceiling on how high one could inflate the price of products, over a certain price would be considered as fraud in my eyes, since the price exceeds the value of the product. So it would be enforced by criminal law with penalties such as prison or high fines. Just in the same way the U.S. has usury statues in which usury becomes unlawful once it goes over a certain amount. Inflation should be dealt in the same way as our usury statues.

 

[Baqueinfaith]

while there is an immigration problem, i don't think just "kicking them out" would exactly be a charitable thing to do. A high minimum wage would force companies , especially companies with not much capital or money out of business. That's why a wage should be something an employer and an employee can bargain on based on the workers basic living needs. However I don't agree with companies abusing the minimum wage when they can afford to pay better wages and increase the well-being of their workers. An inflation law would be a ceiling on how high one could inflate the price of products, over a certain price would be considered as fraud in my eyes, since the price exceeds the value of the product. So it would be enforced by criminal law with penalties such as prison or high fines. Just in the same way the U.S. has usury statues in which usury becomes unlawful once it goes over a certain amount. Inflation should be dealt in the same way as our usury statues.

Well, if you raised the minimum wage, and strictly enforced it, while requiring all employers to use e-verify, but had an official policy of not prosecuting illegals if they bring complaints against their employer and in so doing are unmasked as undocumented....think about it.

Why would any employer hire illegals? How would it be worth it? It's not even cheap labor at that point. Right now the illegals (and the legals no one wants) are coming because the laws aren't enforced, and the labor is so cheap no one can turn it down.

Hence, high minimum wage, strictly enforced. And mandatory e-verify.

Most of those who lose their jobs will be illegals. Employers will have to go to white kids out of college and old black men (btw, despite graduating with honors I couldn't even get an interview to bag groceries. And no, in person I'm not this mean. And I'm clean cut, no criminal record, no tattoos, can speak basic spanish, told them I'd take any shift no matter when. Not even an interview....who gets hired? Crackheads and illegals. And it's the same way with all of my white friends. It's not that we're lazy and don't want those jobs, it's that they won't even give us on interview. The Occupy morons, however are a different story).

And then, if the illegal can't get work, maybe they'll go home?

Charitable....hmmm, they don't seem to be very charitable themselves when they destroy our culture and shoot up our cities, and fill up our emergency rooms and not even bother to pay. We already have some subcultures that have turned themselves into a permanent museum of societal ills. Do we really need 1 million more of them, every single year?

Take a look at the history of price controls. They're a disaster. Quickest way to run your economy into the ground. Try as you might you WILL miscalculate, end up running every business into the ground, then people will be paying blackmarket prices for your goods. Or just bartering.

Seriously, what you're proposing would be a complete unmitigated disaster.

Usury is much easier to regulate than what you propose. Not even close.

One thing I'd do to offset my high minimum wage is I'd cut taxes. US has some of the highest corporate tax rates in the developed world. I'd lower them down to 25% or so, along with personal income taxes, where the brackets should not exceed 25% for anybody, and I would make the first 30K (+5000 per kid) tax free.

I'd also stop taxing corporations on their worldwide income. The way it works right now is if they bring the money back to the US, they get taxed on it, so of course they invest it elsewhere.

 

[StThomasMore]

Well, if you raised the minimum wage, and strictly enforced it, while requiring all employers to use e-verify, but had an official policy of not prosecuting illegals if they bring complaints against their employer and in so doing are unmasked as undocumented....think about it.

Why would any employer hire illegals? How would it be worth it? It's not even cheap labor at that point. Right now the illegals (and the legals no one wants) are coming because the laws aren't enforced, and the labor is so cheap no one can turn it down.

Hence, high minimum wage, strictly enforced. And mandatory e-verify.

Most of those who lose their jobs will be illegals. Employers will have to go to white kids out of college and old black men (btw, despite graduating with honors I couldn't even get an interview to bag groceries. And no, in person I'm not this mean. And I'm clean cut, no criminal record, no tattoos, can speak basic spanish, told them I'd take any shift no matter when. Not even an interview....who gets hired? Crackheads and illegals. And it's the same way with all of my white friends. It's not that we're lazy and don't want those jobs, it's that they won't even give us on interview. The Occupy morons, however are a different story).

And then, if the illegal can't get work, maybe they'll go home?

Charitable....hmmm, they don't seem to be very charitable themselves when they destroy our culture and shoot up our cities, and fill up our emergency rooms and not even bother to pay. We already have some subcultures that have turned themselves into a permanent museum of societal ills. Do we really need 1 million more of them, every single year?

Take a look at the history of price controls. They're a disaster. Quickest way to run your economy into the ground. Try as you might you WILL miscalculate, end up running every business into the ground, then people will be paying blackmarket prices for your goods. Or just bartering.

Seriously, what you're proposing would be a complete unmitigated disaster.

Usury is much easier to regulate than what you propose. Not even close.

One thing I'd do to offset my high minimum wage is I'd cut taxes. US has some of the highest corporate tax rates in the developed world. I'd lower them down to 25% or so, along with personal income taxes, where the brackets should not exceed 25% for anybody, and I would make the first 30K (+5000 per kid) tax free.

I'd also stop taxing corporations on their worldwide income. The way it works right now is if they bring the money back to the US, they get taxed on it, so of course they invest it elsewhere.

The U.S has one of the lowest tax rates in the world. So I don't believe that its taxes because people are going overseas. Its because of corporate greed and trying the squeeze the work penny as much as possible. There are companies that live in countries that have much higher taxes than the U.S., and they don't go on mass market exodus of work layoffs so they can take advantage of destitute overseas Chinese workers. I know one company a friend worked for, and out of the capital and money they make, only 5% of it actually goes to the workers wages. Like I said earlier, the profit from the amount of product I make in ONE day is enough to cover over half a years wage for me. That means from the profit of that product, I only make 0.5% that comes from it.

Economist Intelligence Unit placed the United States second, behind the Netherlands, for the "best place in the world to conduct business."And a study by GrowthPlus, a European think tank, compared 10 major countries to determine which had the best environment for entrepreneurial growth companies.Again, the United States finished second, this time behind Britain.

So in reality corporate companies in the U.S. really have no excuse. Rather they just want their cake and eat it too. They want the benefits of laize faire capitalism from the U.S. while at the same time reaping the benefits of the extremely low wages that communist countries force on their citizens. Funny how these people claim that they are pure capitalists , but yet seem to have no problem getting involved in communist countries for the sake of more capital gain.

I never said illegal aliens should be hired and work. When jobs hire an employee they always require 2 forms of I-9 identification. Usually a SS card, Birth Certificate, etc. Its not like illegals can just waltz on in and take American jobs. I agree that too many immigrants have taken too many jobs in the market and have left born americans without any space left to find work when they get laid off. But this is because corporatist companies know that many immigrants are willing to take lower wages, and they take advantage of this.

Inflation is what kills an economy. And a proper income policy would give a proper inflation ceiling so people cannot charge over the value of a product. It would also give more value to the dollar if there was ever an increase in minimum wage and prevent inflation because of it. I never said prices should be calculated. I had stated there should be a ceiling than one cannot go over. The market can calculate its own prices. And there is already a black-market anyway.

usury is another problem and is what mainly caused the housing crisis bubble. Since people like Alan Greenspan did nothing to properly control the usury abuse and excessive loaning that was going on. Sub prime mortgages were motivated by interest greed. They didn't care if people couldn't pay them.