The two step process of end times Eventism

BABerean2

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I have already responded that Antiochus is not int Daniel 8, but Daniel 11. The feast of dedication in John 10:22 is connected to what Antiochus did in Daniel 11:29-31.

The little horn person in Daniel 8 is not Antiochus.

But what does the Bible say?

Are you claiming verse 17 has nothing to do with verses 22-23?


The Interpretation of the Vision

Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


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Douggg

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Are you claiming verse 17 has nothing to do with verses 22-23?
No, I am saying verse 17 has nothing to do with verse 22.

verse 17 is associated with verse 23. verse 23-26 is till unfulfilled, but will be soon because we are living in the time of the end days.

verse 22 is historic to us.
 
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BABerean2

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verse 17 is associated with verse 23. verse 23-26 is till unfulfilled

If you try to separate verse 23 from verse 22, what is the antecedent of the word "their" in verse 23?


Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


.
 
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DavidPT

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If you try to separate verse 23 from verse 22, what is the antecedent of the word "their" in verse 23?


Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


.


The first thing I notice is, the text says 'their kingdom', and not 'their kingdoms'. This can only mean the 4th kingdom, the one mentioned in Daniel 7, apparently. And besides, look what verse 8 and 9 say before we are given the interpretation in later verses.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This is apparently in regards to verse 22 and 23.

Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


If we then go to Daniel 7---


Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.


Notice that it mentions the four winds of the heaven. Also notice that it mentions the four winds of heaven in Daniel 8:8 as well. In Daniel 7:3 it involves 4 great beasts.

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

In this verse we see that beasts are kings. What do kings usually have? They have kingdoms.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

This verse tends to prove that fact.

And in Daniel 8:22 it also mentions 4 kingdoms. then in verse 23 it mentions in the latter time of their kingdom, not kingdoms, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

That has to be referring to the 4th kingdom mentioned in Daniel 7:23. And notice something else about this 4th kingdom.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


This little horn has to be the same little horn meant in Daniel 8:8, where we see in Daniel 8:23 that this is a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, that shall stand up. This is also meaning the same one meant in Daniel 11:21 that stands up.
 
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BABerean2

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The first thing I notice is, the text says 'their kingdom', and not 'their kingdoms'. This can only mean the 4th kingdom, the one mentioned in Daniel 7, apparently. And besides, look what verse 8 and 9 say before we are given the interpretation in later verses.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This is apparently in regards to verse 22 and 23.

Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


If we then go to Daniel 7---


Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.


Notice that it mentions the four winds of the heaven. Also notice that it mentions the four winds of heaven in Daniel 8:8 as well. In Daniel 7:3 it involves 4 great beasts.

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

In this verse we see that beasts are kings. What do kings usually have? They have kingdoms.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

This verse tends to prove that fact.

And in Daniel 8:22 it also mentions 4 kingdoms. then in verse 23 it mentions in the latter time of their kingdom, not kingdoms, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

That has to be referring to the 4th kingdom mentioned in Daniel 7:23. And notice something else about this 4th kingdom.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


This little horn has to be the same little horn meant in Daniel 8:8, where we see in Daniel 8:23 that this is a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, that shall stand up. This is also meaning the same one meant in Daniel 11:21 that stands up.


Where do you believe Antiochus Epiphanes is found in the above? See John 10:22 for a reference to Hanukkah.

.
 
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Douggg

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The antecedent must come before the word "their".


.
When their house was built the family moved in.

What is the antecedent of "their" in that sentence? Is it before or after the "their" ?
 
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BABerean2

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DavidPT

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Where do you believe Antiochus Epiphanes is found in the above? See John 10:22 for a reference to Hanukkah.

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When did I ever mention anything about Antiochus Epiphanes? I don't believe he is found in Daniel 8, nor do I believe he is found in Daniel 11 either, though there are apparently some that believe he is found in one or both places. Just because past Commentators may have convinced some that their interpretations of Daniel 8 and 11 are correct, that doesn't mean any of them has convinced me as well. I'm able to think for myself, I don't need nor rely on past Commentators, authors of books, etc, to do my thinking for me. That way if I'm wrong about anything I can't blame it on anyone but myself.
 
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DavidPT

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There are those that don't believe there are any gaps in the 70 weeks, where like me, they agree that the prince that shall come in verse 26 is meaning the pronoun he in verse 27, except they take the prince that shall come to be the same prince in verse 25, they take it to be Messiah, apparently. You seem to be the only one, or one of few people that do, that does not see the prince that shall come to be meaning the he in Daniel 9:27. All you seem to see is the people of the prince that shall come, and not also the prince that shall come. While the former would be a plural, the latter wouldn't be.
 
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Douggg

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What is the antecedent in Daniel 9:26-27?
The prince who shall come is the he in Daniel 9:27.

The person is the little horn of Daniel 8, who shall come into the middle east from north and west of Israel, Daniel 8:9.
 
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