The two step process of end times Eventism

[grafted branch]

As to Revelation 12 in general, to this day I have never fully made up my mind about some of the events recorded. Take this war in heaven, for instance. There are some that see that meaning sometime in the beginning of creation. There are others that see it meaning when the ascension occured. And there are others that see it as future still. I only see the last two as possibilties, and that I tend to favor it meaning at the ascension as oppposed to it being future still.

If the war in heaven happened during the ascension, and that verse 6 is meaning berfore the war in heaven, that could indicate that what you initially proposed about Mary and Joseph fleeing, that this is at least a possibilty. Let's say that it is a possible interpretion. What about verse 1, then? That is the woman that flees in verse 6. In what way would verse 1 be describing Mary?

I think some have also suggested that verse 6 involves fleeing to the mountains during the events pertaining to 70 AD. The problem with that proposal, assuming verse 6 is meaning prior to the war in heaven, then assuming the war in heaven happened during the ascension, that proposal won't work since it would be a contradiction. OTOH, if this war in heaven is still future, the proposal concerning fleeing into the mountains during 70 AD could still work since this would still place verse 6 prior to the war in heaven, and that it would place it after the war in heaven if that war occurred during the ascension, thus the latter would be a contradiction.

To me then, this war in heaven seems to show that this same woman flees twice into the wilderness, before and after this war.

Unfortunately, all of this raises more questions than answers, since this doesn't exactly adequately answer what you inquired about. Though there may be some things I tend to be somewhat dogmatic about at times, some of Revelation 12 would not be one of them.

So I’m in the same boat as you, there are a lot of questions regarding Revelation 12 that I haven’t got the answers to.

I do think Mary is in view with Revelation 12:4-6. The description of the woman in Revelation 12:1 doesn’t match any other scriptures that talk about Mary directly; it obviously has a connection to Josephs dream.

One thing I have noticed is there does appear to be some kind of parallelism going on. Verses 3-4 have the stars of heaven being cast to the earth. Verses 4-6 have the woman fleeing into the wilderness to get away from the dragon. Verses 7-9 have war and again have what’s in heaven being cast down to the earth. Verses 13-14 again have the woman fleeing into the wilderness. Verse 17 again has a war.

I’m not sure if the same event is being described in several different ways or if these are several events that all have the same pattern.

 

[Douggg]

So who will be feeding the Jews?

Will they be in the wilderness for exactly 1260 days or only for around 3 years?

The two witnesses will be feeding the Jews the word of God. The 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 is the testimony time of the two witnesses of the testimony time of 1260 days in Revelation 11:3.

The 3 years, thereabouts, will be when the Antichrist betrays the Jews, after him becoming the King of Israel. The exact time cannot be determined because there is not enough information.

 

[Douggg]

How can you take a few verses out of two completely different passages and put them together in this way, and then claim it is proof God resurrects the antichrist from the dead?

Because like in Ezekiel 28 some of the verses are about Antichrist revealing himself as the man of sin. While other verses are about Satan.

In Isaiah 14, some of the verses apply to Satan, and other verses apply to the slain man of sin.

Also, the person is not what I would call resurrected, because he is not buried. Verse 18 is a referral to king's of nations, their remains are in fancy tombs i.e. their house. Buried in such manner.

The man of sin, does not get that honor in verse 20, because he will be brought back to life before hand - coming back to life while in his open casket which the whole world will see him come back to life. Which will make his claim of having achieved God-hood so believable.

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

 

[Douggg]

Keep in mind, until the war in heaven satan still has access to heaven in some sense or another. It would be after he is kicked out into the earth that a proposal like your's could possibly work.

Satan has access to the third heaven - only if God summons him.

In Revelation 4 - 5 Satan is not there among those in the third heaven.

 

[grafted branch]

The two witnesses will be feeding the Jews the word of God. The 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 is the testimony time of the two witnesses of the testimony time of 1260 days in Revelation 11:3.

Then the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. The Jews reject him at that point. Shocked and in disarray, confused.

So if the Jews are shocked, disarrayed, and confused when they find out the Antichrist isn’t the true Messiah, the testimony of the 2 witnesses is completely ineffective. During their testimony the Antichrist is only a man and hasn’t become the beast yet.

Aren’t the Jews looking for Elijah to come first and isn’t one of the 2 witnesses Elijah? If the 2 witnesses perform the miracles as described in Revelation 11:5-6 and their testimony discloses the fact that the Antichrist is false, how can it be possible that Jews will be shocked? Is the Antichrist more powerful than the 2 witnesses?

The 3 years, thereabouts, will be when the Antichrist betrays the Jews, after him becoming the King of Israel. The exact time cannot be determined because there is not enough information.

Ok, but if the Jews are in the metaphorical wilderness for exactly 1260 days and the Antichrist only betrays them for roughly 3 years what keeps them in the wilderness for the other ½ year?

 

[Douggg]

So if the Jews are shocked, disarrayed, and confused when they find out the Antichrist isn’t the true Messiah, the testimony of the 2 witnesses is completely ineffective. During their testimony the Antichrist is only a man and hasn’t become the beast yet.

No, it is because of the two witnesses testimony about Jesus that the Jews will turn to Jesus. And also because of the two witnesses, the Jews will
know to flee into the wilderness when the aod is placed on the temple mount.

The Antichrist becomes in the beast before day 1185 when the image of the beast is placed on the temple mount. The beast kills the two witnesses on day 1260.

Aren’t the Jews looking for Elijah to come first and isn’t one of the 2 witnesses Elijah? If the 2 witnesses perform the miracles as described in Revelation 11:5-6 and their testimony discloses the fact that the Antichrist is false, how can it be possible that Jews will be shocked? Is the Antichrist more powerful than the 2 witnesses?

Yes, regarding the Jews are looking for Elijah. And also they believe a known prophet will anoint the messiah as the King of Israel. Put those two things together and the false prophet will claim to be Elijah.

The Jews will be shocked because they will think that the two witnesses are kooks, up until the Antichrist betrays them.

The bible indicates that the beast will overcome the two witnesses and kills them.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Ok, but if the Jews are in the metaphorical wilderness for exactly 1260 days and the Antichrist only betrays them for roughly 3 years what keeps them in the wilderness for the other ½ year?

For most of the 1260 days the Jews are metaphorically in the wilderness. For the last 75 days, the Jews will begin fleeing into the literal wilderness and continue to flee in the second half.

However, in the second half it will be more difficult, because the two witnesses will be gone.

 

[grafted branch]

No, it is because of the two witnesses testimony about Jesus that the Jews will turn to Jesus.

The Jews will be shocked because they will think that the two witnesses are kooks, up until the Antichrist betrays them.

The Antichrist becomes in the beast before day 1185 when the image of the beast is placed on the temple mount.

If I understand you correctly the 2 witnesses feed the Jews, the Jews think they are kooks, and then when the Antichrist betrays them they finally believe the 2 witnesses. That would mean for the first 1185 days the testimony of the 2 witnesses is ineffective. Wouldn’t this also mean that the Antichrist is more powerful than the 2 witnesses during this time? I find it hard to believe that the 2 witnesses will be thought of as kooks when they perform the miracles.

Yes, regarding the Jews are looking for Elijah. And also they believe a known prophet will anoint the messiah as the King of Israel. Put those two things together and the false prophet will claim to be Elijah.

So do you think the real Elijah will be one of the 2 witnesses who will be seen at the same time (or shortly after) the false Elijah anoints the Antichrist as king?

For most of the 1260 days the Jews are metaphorically in the wilderness. For the last 75 days, the Jews will begin fleeing into the literal wilderness and continue to flee in the second half.

So the 1260 day period for being in the wilderness (literally or metaphorically) may or may not be an accurate number?

 

[Douggg]

If I understand you correctly the 2 witnesses feed the Jews, the Jews think they are kooks, and then when the Antichrist betrays them they finally believe the 2 witnesses. That would mean for the first 1185 days the testimony of the 2 witnesses is ineffective.

I don't know how you are defining ineffective. Do you mean instant results, in Jews turning to Jesus? If so, by that definition all of the gospels are ineffective - because people can hear them preached for decades, upon decades, before turning to Jesus.

Wouldn’t this also mean that the Antichrist is more powerful than the 2 witnesses during this time? I find it hard to believe that the 2 witnesses will be thought of as kooks when they perform the miracles.

The person becomes the beast and then as the beast he makes war on the two witnesses, overcomes them and kills them.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

In Revelation 13:4, it says Satan gives the beast his power. The person as the Antichrist does not possess that kind of power, until he becomes the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

So do you think the real Elijah will be one of the 2 witnesses who will be seen at the same time (or shortly after) the false Elijah anoints the Antichrist as king?

It appears that way to me.

So the 1260 day period for being in the wilderness (literally or metaphorically) may or may not be an accurate number?

The 1260 days is accurate and exact. But there are events that take place within the 1260 that cannot be exactly pinpointed.

 

[grafted branch]

I don't know how you are defining ineffective. Do you mean instant results, in Jews turning to Jesus? If so, by that definition all of the gospels are ineffective - because people can hear them preached for decades, upon decades, before turning to Jesus.

What I mean by ineffective is that not one single Jew will believe the 2 witnesses until the Antichrist commits his act of claiming to be God.

I agree that declaring Gods word and people becoming saved is an ongoing process as people are born every day. However when something miraculous happens that’s a different thing; look at how many were saved at Pentecost.

The person becomes the beast and then as the beast he makes war on the two witnesses, overcomes them and kills them.

Ok, I get what you’re saying here but prior to becoming the beast is what I’m questioning.

The 2 witnesses will be performing miracles, fire comes out of their mouths, they prevent it from raining, they turn water into blood, and they smite the earth with all plagues. During this time you have the Jews believing a man who claims to be the Messiah anointed by a fake Elijah. I simply have a difficult time understanding why this would be.

Normal thinking would be that the persons who are performing the genuine miracles and pointing out that the Antichrist is only a man, with no miraculous powers, would be the ones to be believed. If the Jews can’t see this then it would seem to me that the Antichrist has to be more powerful than the 2 witnesses in some way. Again I find this hard to understand.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know how you are defining ineffective. Do you mean instant results, in Jews turning to Jesus? If so, by that definition all of the gospels are ineffective - because people can hear them preached for decades, upon decades, before turning to Jesus.


The person becomes the beast and then as the beast he makes war on the two witnesses, overcomes them and kills them.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

In Revelation 13:4, it says Satan gives the beast his power. The person as the Antichrist does not possess that kind of power, until he becomes the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


It appears that way to me.

The 1260 days is accurate and exact. But there are events that take place within the 1260 that cannot be exactly pinpointed.

There will be two men claiming to be Elijah?

 

[Douggg]

During this time you have the Jews believing a man who claims to be the Messiah anointed by a fake Elijah. I simply have a difficult time understanding why this would be.

gb, the Jews (Judaism) basically go by what they call their sages. What we would call theologians.

Regarding the messiah, they go by the Rambam, who wrote that the messiah will be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet. Also that the messiah would fight the battles of God in defending Israel. And that he would teach the Jews how to follow the Torah (the law).

Back in the 2nd century, the Jews thought a guy named Simon bar Kockba was the messiah because he lead a rebellion against the Romans. But he got paranoid and thought some of his supporters (rabbi's) were undercover agent for the Romans and had them killed. Well that didn't go over big and he lost his support. And also the Romans ended up routing the Jews.

So what we have to do is see if there is a setup where the Antichrist could appear to the Jews as being the messiah. Fighting the battles of God in defending Israel, for example.

The little horn person in Daniel 8:23 stands up, an idiom for prepares to go to war. And in Daniel 8:9, he heads into the middle east with a strong army from the geographical location of one Alexander's breakup kingdoms. Which appears to be Greece, because of the directions in that verse.

So, it appears that the person will mobilize his army in Greece, right before Gog/Magog in an attempt to
deter the attack. Whether he actually engages Gog's army is not known.

But, after Gog/Magog the Jews will think the person intended to defend Israel. And that he is a Jew.
Many Jews believe that the messiah will come after Gog/Magog, so they will be primed.

We do have some information therefore about the person. He has to be a Jew. He will have a stern, stout look, from Daniel 8 and 7. And he will be over the EU ten leaders (not necessarily of ten countries) all before the Gog/Magog event.

At the Judaism.org site, they give some information about Judaism's view of the messiah (mashiach). From that information, we can put together how the Antichrist will appear to be the messiah to them.

Normal thinking would be that the persons who are performing the genuine miracles and pointing out that the Antichrist is only a man, with no miraculous powers, would be the ones to be believed. If the Jews can’t see this then it would seem to me that the Antichrist has to be more powerful than the 2 witnesses in some way. Again I find this hard to understand.

I don't think the two witnesses are going to be doing those plagues right off the bat. I think those are going to be after the person has become the beast, and the plagues in verse 6-7 will be to keep the beast preoccupied with problems while the Jews flee into the mountains.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

It doesn't indicate that the two witnesses will be doing miracles like healing people, and such. I think it will be more like the plagues that Moses sent on Egypt, so that the children of Israel could leave - if that is a fair comparison.

 

[Douggg]

There will be two men claiming to be Elijah?

That's what I am thinking. One false, and one actual.

By comparison, in recent times there are two false Jesus's that comes to mind. Visaarion in Russia. And John Miller in Australia. There are some youtube videos on both guys.

 

[BABerean2]

The little horn person in Daniel 8:23 stands up, an idiom for prepares to go to war. And in Daniel 8:9, he heads into the middle east with a strong army from the geographical location of one Alexander's breakup kingdoms. Which appears to be Greece, because of the directions in that verse.

So, it appears that the person will mobilize his army in Greece, right before Gog/Magog in an attempt to
deter the attack. Whether he actually engages Gog's army is not known.

Where does Antiochus Epiphanes, and Alexander the Great, fit into the Book of Daniel?

Can you explain the verse found below?

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


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[Douggg]

Where does Antiochus Epiphanes, and Alexander the Great, fit into the Book of Daniel?

Antiochus in Daniel 11:29-31. Alexander in Daniel 8:21, and in previous verse the great horn on the goat (kingdom of Greece).

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

re dedication of the temple following the Antiochus period.

Differently, the vision of the little horn and the 2300 days in Daniel 8 is time of the end.

 

[DavidPT]

Satan has access to the third heaven - only if God summons him.

In Revelation 4 - 5 Satan is not there among those in the third heaven.

Maybe the reason why is because those chapters are meaning after the war in heaven, and after satan has already been cast into the earth.

 

[BABerean2]

Differently, the vision of the little horn and the 2300 days in Daniel 8 is time of the end.

The angel Gabriel said it is the time of the end of the four kingdoms found in the passage. He did not say it was thousands of years in the future.

Daniel's Vision of the Ram and the Goat

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
Dan 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


The Interpretation of the Vision

Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.


When taken in context, this passage was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes during 167 BC, which was during the later time of four kingdoms produced by Alexander the Great's kingdom, instead of during the seven year period right before the Second Coming of Christ.


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[Douggg]

Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The issue stems around which vision? As there are two visions referenced in Daniel 8.

Daniel 8 had a overall vision, indicated from verse 2. And within that overall vision, Daniel had a vision regarding the little horn beginning in verse 9 to verse 12. That specific vision is referred to in verse 13.

In verses 20-22, Gabriel addressed the ram and the goat. Which are historic from our perspective.

In verse 23, Gabriel addressed the vision of the little horn person, continuing all the way to his demise when he attempts to do battle with Jesus, in verse 25, the Prince of Princes.

In verse 26, Gabriel informed the vision of the evening and morning, i.e.the daily sacrifice, would be for many days, and would be shut up - i.e. not understood until that time. Which we are now in that time, time of the end. Take a look at verse 26.

 

[Douggg]

Maybe the reason why is because those chapters are meaning after the war in heaven, and after satan has already been cast into the earth.

In Genesis, Satan used the serpent to entice Adam and Eve into sin. We don't have indication of a war in heaven of Satan being cast out from heaven by means of war at that time in Genesis.

The war in heaven in Revelation 12 conducted by Michael and his angels is in the second heaven, when Michael stands up for the Jewish people, Israel, in Daniel 12:1, time of the end. Which gives a key to the timing. It hasn't taken place yet.

 

[BABerean2]

The issue stems around which vision? As there are two visions referenced in Daniel 8.

Daniel 8 had a overall vision, indicated from verse 2. And within that overall vision, Daniel had a vision regarding the little horn beginning in verse 9 to verse 12. That specific vision is referred to in verse 13.

In verses 20-22, Gabriel addressed the ram and the goat. Which are historic from our perspective.

In verse 23, Gabriel addressed the vision of the little horn person, continuing all the way to his demise when he attempts to do battle with Jesus, in verse 25, the Prince of Princes.

In verse 26, Gabriel informed the vision of the evening and morning, i.e.the daily sacrifice, would be for many days, and would be shut up - i.e. not understood until that time. Which we are now in that time, time of the end. Take a look at verse 26.

Where is Antiochus Epiphanes in the vision?


Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


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[Douggg]

Where is Antiochus Epiphanes in the vision?


Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


.

I have already responded that Antiochus is not int Daniel 8, but Daniel 11. The feast of dedication in John 10:22 is connected to what Antiochus did in Daniel 11:29-31.

The little horn person in Daniel 8 is not Antiochus.