The Two Concepts of the Sabbath

[BobRyan]

That's for the Gentiles. Regardless of the day they choose to observe. The Sabbath can be any day of the week.

You are merely "quoting you" as your "source" on that point.

I am a gentile - could I stand before God and say "sure your WORD says the 7th day is the Sabbath - but Shibolet says otherwise. He says I can pick any day I wish -- so I am going with him on that point"?

I think we both know that would be foolish.

Hint: Adam and Eve kept Sabbath on their 2nd day - FIRST full day of life - in Genesis 2:1-3. So they had not worked 6 full days prior to keeping GOD's Commandment. The fact is this is God's seventh day Sabbath. "The seventh day is THE Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) Thy God"

God "could" have made Adam on week-day-1 to make it "appear" that Adam had worked 6 days then rested on the Sabbath. But God makes it clear that Adam is to observe GOD's Sabbath.

No sir, I am not quoting myself but Paul in Romans 14.

in Romans 14 Paul never mentions "Sabbath" but he says this of the Lev 23 list of annual holy days "one man observes one day above another while another man observes every day" - and of course even the Jews knew that 3 of the annual feast days were mandatory and the others optional.

Now "what if" Paul was saying that one many observes the Sabbath above every day in the week while another man observes every day of the week as Sabbath? That would be a huge problem for Paul's "if a man will not work - neither let him eat" and it would be a problem for Galatians 4 where Paul flat out condemns any one who observes a day that happens to be a pagan holy day.

Paul is talking about the already recorded fact in the NT that some folks were observing the Lev 23 annual feasts and Sabbaths - while others were not. He was not "editing the Ten Commandments" to say "pick any day you want as the Bible Sabbath' because that would break the commandment - and in fact would be a violation of Mark 7:6-13. Our "first option" is not to select the Bible-breaking option.

 

[BobRyan]

The command is found in this form -- as a day of rest
Exodus 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord(YHWH) your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Adam does not rest on his 7th day of life - after working 6 days. Adam rests on God's Holy Day - the the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord(YHWH) your God.

If you were having this conversation with another Jew, he would say to you that you are not obliged to any concept of the Sabbath commandment at all. Why? Because Gentiles are bound to the Noahide laws, not the Decalogue.

Which does not work - because there is nothing in the Tanakh telling Noah not to take God's name in vain. What is more "Abraham kept my commandments, statutes and Laws" in Genesis 26:5 tells us that there were Commands not written for us in Genesis - but known to man. For example in Genesis 7, 8 we have mention of "unclean animals" vs 'Clean animals' yet no definition for that is found in the book of Genesis - you have to go to Lev 11 to find it. So then Noah knows about the clean vs the unclean but the "reader" has to go to Lev 11 to find out what it is.

And there is nothing about a commandment to keep the Sabbath in the Noahide laws.

Nor anything about not taking God's name in vain. And as gentiles we know that not taking God's name in vain - is "for us" no matter that it is not listed in the entire book of Genesis.

HaShem does not need a day to rest; so the Sabbath, He made it for man, not man for the Sabbath.

He also does not need a temple built by man. Yet it is the "Temple of the LORD (YHWH)"

That is not an argument for "pick any temple you want"

God did not "need" animal blood - but His Word specified it and Cain's offering was rejected because he thought he could "pick any thing he wanted" as the offering - after all God does not "need" animal bllod.

It means that the Lord does not need it as we do.

True but HE is the one that defined it for us. And notice what Christ said in Mark 7 about bending/editing/tinkering-with the Commandments of God?

6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

"Commandment of God" = "Word of God" = "Moses said"

I do understand what you mean when you say that HaShem made it clear that Adam was to observe the Sabbath. There is a midrash which says that, after the Lord established the Sabbath as a commandment, He submitted His Tora Law to all the peoples on earth and all of them rejected it but one, Israel. Hence, HaShem's statement that "Israel is My son." (Exodus 4:22,23)

Which I believe to be the case as well.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Notice the words "all thy work"... for some professions, like farming, your work is flat out during planting and harvest time but more relaxed during summer and especially winter. Because I have a manufacturing job, I do all my work, what is required by my employer, in 4 or 5 days. The key here is to get 'r all done in 6 days or less cause you don't that 7th day... thats God's day.

I know, but also notice the words "six days shalt thy labour": that's an express command to labour for six days. This is clearly based on the creation pattern in which God worked for six straight days, then rested on the seventh. I'm not sure it's a good idea to ignore half of the words like they don't exist just by pointing at other words, and pitting half against half to attempt to 'cancel out' the uncomfortable part of the command.

 

[BobRyan]

I know, but also notice the words "six days shalt thy labour": that's an express command to labour for six days. .

True - - but it cannot be bent to make all the annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 at war with the weekly Sabbath. So a rigid wooden interpretation can't be had in that case.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

True - - but it cannot be bent to make all the annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 at war with the weekly Sabbath. So a rigid wooden interpretation can't be had in that case.

What if you're sick and can't work a day or two or more... would God consider that a sin? Not likely....

 

[Florin Lăiu]

The Two Concepts of the Sabbath
1 - Sabbath by definition covers two concepts: The first as a commandment and the second as a ritual.
2 - The Sabbath as a commandment has been from the beginning meant to all Mankind, Jews and Gentiles alike.
3 - The Sabbath as a ritual is for the Jews only that it may be a sign between HaShem and the Jews that they may know that the Lord is their God. (Ezekiel 20:12,20)
4 - The commandment about the Sabbath is to work six days regardless and rest on the seventh day regardless.
5 - The ritual about the Sabbath is to work six fixed and unchanged days and rest on the Sabbath within an unchanged weekly cycle.

To me the ritual aspect of the Sabbath commandment is an artificial theological claim. I cannot see how is it more ritual than the object of the first commandment: to have ONE God, namely THIS ONE. Can you imagine some scholar claiming that the moral aspect of the problem is just have One God REGARDLESS?
Actually, the Sabbath Commandment cannot be changed, and it reads the same, regardless the reader -- ancient Israelite, ancient Gentile, modern Jew and modern Gentile. The seventh-day is the sabbath, not one in seven. Can you imagine a traditional Christian theologian saying that we should keep the Day of Resurrection in the first day of the week, regardless the day we choose to count first?

 

[Florin Lăiu]

What if you're sick and can't work a day or two or more... would God consider that a sin? Not likely....

Actually God’s commandment is not exactly YOU MUST WORK SIX DAYS. We do not need a divine commandment to work, because God gave us the feeling of hunger and it is enough to push us to work. The Hebrew of the Biblical text in Exodus 20:9 does not use there an imperative, but a simple yiqtol (תַּֽעֲבֹ֔ד֮), which is normally to be translated YOU MAY WORK / YOU ARE ALLOWED TO WORK, while in verse 10, where a negative particle preceds the verb, the commandment says YOU SHALL NOT WORK / YOU ARE NOT ALOWED TO WORK.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Amen Florin, I agree...

Welcome to the arena... I mean forums.

 

[Shibolet]

To me the ritual aspect of the Sabbath commandment is artificial. I cannot see how is it more ritual than the Unique God of the first commandment. Can you imagine some theologian claiming that the moral aspect of the problem is just have One God REGARDLESS? Actually, the Sabbath Commandment cannot be changed, and it reads the same, regardless the reader -- ancient Israelite, ancient Gentile, modern Jew and modern Gentile. The seventh-day is the sabbath, not one in seven. Can you imagine a traditional Christian theologian saying that we should keep the Day of Resurrection in the first day of the week, regardless the day we choose to count first?

The ritual aspect of the Sabbath is to keep it in the seventh day aka between Friday and Sunday. This for the Jews is akin to a commandment. But for the Gentiles, it is something different. They have the freedom to choose any day as long as it is after six days of work. Can't you understand what I mean! I am trying to understand and respect the Gentiles' freewill. BTW, that was Paul's decision if you read Romans 14. Now, if you insist on keeping the Sabbath just as the Jews do, you are welcome to do so and be blessed with your decision! But if one day you decide to join God's Covenant with His People according to Isaiah 56:1-8, then and only then, the Gentile must keep the Sabbath as a commandment and be no longer free to choose the day he or she pleases.

 

[Shibolet]

Actually God’s commandment is not exactly YOU MUST WORK SIX DAYS. We do not need a divine commandment to work, because God gave us the feeling of hunger and it is enough to push us to work. The Hebrew of the Biblical text in Exodus 20:9 does not use there an imperative, but a simple yiqtol (תַּֽעֲבֹ֔ד֮), which is normally to be translated YOU MAY WORK / YOU ARE ALLOWED TO WORK, while in verse 10, where a negative particle preceds the verb, the commandment says YOU SHALL NOT WORK / YOU ARE NOT ALOWED TO WORK.

That's not according to the JPS Jewish translation of the Tanach. Exodus 20:9,10 says, "In six days you SHALL labor and do all your work but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God. You shall not do any work.

 

[Florin Lăiu]

That's not according to the JPS Jewish translation of the Tanach. Exodus 20:9,10 says, "In six days you SHALL labor and do all your work but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God. You shall not do any work.

You are right, my reading was not according to the JPS, and probably every Bible translation rendered the Hebrew non-perfective verb in this place, as a commandment. But the same verbal aspect is translated in Genesis 2:16-17 as a permission versus commandment (prohibitive):

”Of every ... thou mayest freely eat; BUT of the tree ...., thou shalt not eat of it....” (JPS Jewish translation)
”Of every ... you are free to eat; BUT as for the tree ...., you must not eat of it; ..." (TNK Jewish translation)
”You are free to eat of all the trees .... BUT of the tree of ....you are not to eat....” (NJB Catholic translation)
”You may freely eat of every tree .... BUT of the tree of ...you shall not eat... " (NRS Church of Christ transl.)
”You are free to eat from any tree ... BUT you must not eat from the tree of ..." (NIV Evangelical translation)
”Of every tree ...you may freely eat; ... BUT of the tree of .... you shall not eat..." (NKJ ultraconservative)

Now, the Sabbath commandment (Ex 20:9-10) follows the same pattern: the same verbal paradigm (YIQTOL / imperfective / non-perfective), the same syntax of the phrase and the same logical and legal situation:
”For six days you may work freely and do all your job, BUT the seventh day ... you shall do no work...”

Details about the modal function of the non-perfective Hebrew verb can be found in Waltke and O’Connor, Syntax of Biblical Hebrew, page 508. The famous Hebrew scholars show examples of ”non-perfective of permission” or ”of possibility”:
1. ”You may kill my two sons” (Gen 42:37); 2. ”You may require payment from a foreigner.” (Deut 15:3); 3. ”who may dwell in your tent? Who may live on your holy hill?” (Ps 15:1); 4. ”every place where you may set your foot”
(Josh 1:3). ”This use is common in the protasis of conditional clauses”.

Concluding, if the form of the verb allows a permissive / possible mode, which is attested in Hebrew and well illustrated in the Bible, in various translation; if the same logical pattern functions in Exodus 20:9-10, I stand firmly for my initial translation/interpretation. I read Hebrew for 47 years and I teach it for 24. Thus I know what I speak about.

 

[Shibolet]

You are right, that’s not according to the JPS, and probably every Bible translation rendered the imperfect in this place as a commandment. But the same verbal aspect is translated in Genesis 2:16-17 as a permission versus commandment (prohibitive)

Sorry Florin, but, to make sure of what I was posting, I typed straight
out of the JPS (Exodus 20:9) How come you do not acknowledge it? Perhaps you don't believe me! So, there is nothing else I can do.

 

[Florin Lăiu]

The ritual aspect of the Sabbath is to keep it in the seventh day aka between Friday and Sunday. This for the Jews is akin to a commandment. But for the Gentiles, it is something different. They have the freedom to choose any day as long as it is after six days of work. Can't you understand what I mean! I am trying to understand and respect the Gentiles' freewill. BTW, that was Paul's decision if you read Romans 14. Now, if you insist on keeping the Sabbath just as the Jews do, you are welcome to do so and be blessed with your decision! But if one day you decide to join God's Covenant with His People according to Isaiah 56:1-8, then and only then, the Gentile must keep the Sabbath as a commandment and be no longer free to choose the day he or she pleases.

Why is God’s arbitrary choice a ”ritual aspect of the Sabbath”? If the Sabbath is ritual because it is exactly and exclusively the seventh-day, then the whole week is ritual, sir. God simply decided to create in sic days. There is no known scientific reason for this choice of 6+1 days, therefore I call this choice abitrary, that is a simple expression of the will of God, which is super-rational in many cases. If the Sabbath with its established place in the weekly cycle, with its memorial meaning is to be changed, the week also should be abolished. Why have a weekly cycle in the NT, where it is said that each day must be holy?
First you should explain why Gentiles should have a different spiritual regime than the Jews. Was Adam a Jew, or a Gentile? The NT does not acknowledge such spiritual distinction. In Romans 14 Paul refers to same problems that he encountered in Corinth, Collossae and Galatia and possibly elsewhere: the Jewish calendar feasts and the foods suspected to have been consacrated to the idols (1Cor 8-10; Gal 4:9-10; Col 2:16-17). In some places, some Christians (Jews or Judaizers) just regarded these feasts as binding for them, while in other places, some regarded theses feasts as binding and meritorious works to be done by all Christians. Therefore the Apostle is in some places tolerant, especially with the ”weak brother”, while in other places he warns the Judaizers that they are in danger to loose God’s grace and salvation.
Was the weekly day of rest, in the primary Church, an optional observation? If Paul in Romans 14 speaks about any sort of holy day, if all the days are holy, or all the days are ordinary, why Jonn the Revelator writes, a generation later, that there was a LORDLY DAY (Rev 1:10). And what kind of stuff do you think that contains the heavenly ark of the covenant, ready to be open in the Judgment day (Rev 11:19; 12:17)?

 

[Florin Lăiu]

Sorry Florin, but, to make sure of what I was posting, I typed straight out of the JPS (Exodus 20:9) How come you do not acknowledge it? Perhaps you don't believe me! So, there is nothing else I can do.

Sorry, my English is not good, I am a foreigner. I would not say that you have typed wrong the text of JPS. In JPS it sounds exactly as you wrote, and I said that probably this is the case in most or even all Biblical translations. I use dozens of Bible translations in my computer programs and also as printed books. And therefore I could not counterdict your quotation. Thanks for calling my attention. I edited now my reply above. I hope that this time is acceptable.

 

[Shibolet]

Sorry, my English is not good, I am a foreigner. I would not say that you have typed wrong the text of JPS. In JPS it sounds exactly as you wrote, and I said that probably this is the case in most or even all Biblical translations. I use dozens of Bible translations in my computer programs and also as printed books. And therefore I could not counterdict your quotation. Thanks for calling my attention.

No problem Mr. Florin, BTW, I am also a foreigner. I am from Israel.

 

[Shibolet]

Why is God’s arbitrary choice a ”ritual aspect of the Sabbath”? If the Sabbath is ritual because it is exactly and exclusively the seventh-day, then the whole week is ritual, sir. God simply decided to create in sic days. There is no known scientific reason for this choice of 6+1 days, therefore I call this choice abitrary, that is a simple expression of the will of God, which is super-rational in many cases. If the Sabbath with its established place in the weekly cycle, with its memorial meaning is to be changed, the week also should be abolished. Why have a weekly cycle in the NT, where it is said that each day must be holy?
First you should explain why Gentiles should have a different spiritual regime than the Jews. Was Adam a Jew, or a Gentile? The NT does not acknowledge such spiritual distinction. In Romans 14 Paul refers to same problems that he encountered in Corinth, Collossae and Galatia and possibly elsewhere: the Jewish calendar feasts and the foods suspected to have been consacrated to the idols (1Cor 8-10; Gal 4:9-10; Col 2:16-17). In some places, some Christians (Jews or Judaizers) just regarded these feasts as binding for them, while in other places, some regarded theses feasts as binding and meritorious works to be done by all Christians. Therefore the Apostle is in some places tolerant, especially with the ”weak brother”, while in other places he warns the Judaizers that they are in danger to loose God’s grace and salvation.
Was the weekly day of rest, in the primary Church, an optional observation? If Paul in Romans 14 speaks about any sort of holy day, if all the days are holy, or all the days are ordinary, why Jonn the Revelator writes, a generation later, that there was a LORDLY DAY (Rev 1:10). And what kind of stuff do you think that contains the heavenly ark of the covenant, ready to be open in the Judgment day (Rev 11:19; 12:17)?

Nothing to do with God being arbitrary. The whole problem is with man. Perhaps that's the reason why man directed the attention of the Gentiles to the Noahide laws without a day to keep it holy. That was left to Paul who said that one is free to keep any day or no day at all. Because, as he said either you do it or not, you do it for the Lord. On the other hand, Prophet Isaiah came up with the possibility that, if Gentiles decide to joint God's Covenant with His People, they must observe the Sabbath as the Jews do. (Isaiah 56:1-8)

Regarding the Ark of the Covenant, I am almost sure that Prophet Jeremiah took care of that issue just before the Babylonians burned the Temple down
and found nothing in the Holy of Holies and, probably, Jeremiah took the Ark of the Covenant up to Mount Nebo where Moses was buried and hid the Ark of the Covenant next to the grave of Moses. As the grave of Moses was never found the place where Jeremiah has likewise never been found. The Ark was back to the one who brought it down from Mount Sinai.

 

[Florin Lăiu]

No problem Mr. Florin, BTW, I am also a foreigner. I am from Israel.

אני מרומניא . שלום על ישראל

 

[Shibolet]

אני מרומניא . שלום על ישראל

Very good! As I can see, you speak Hebrew but, you are not Jewish, are you?

 

[Florin Lăiu]

Very good! As I can see, you speak Hebrew but, you are not Jewish, are you?

I am not a Jew, even though from my childhood I was nicknamed Jew by mates, because I did not use to attend the school on Sabbaths and because I lived with my family in a Jewish building.

I know Jews and their habits, and since my teen age I began to learn Hebrew. However, I do not speak Israeli Hebrew. I became a teacher of Biblical Hebrew, which is somehow the same language, but an archaic phase of its development. I can understand much reading modern Hebrew, but there are a lot of modern vocabulary where I was not interested to learn, because I lived not in Israel (just visited once). I could dialogue with Jews in Romanian or English.

Hebrew is for me a soul language, just because it is the basic Biblical language. I added Imperial Aramaic (for Daniel and Ezra) and NT Greek. I studied all these languages just for Biblical research. And I am happy for that. I love Jews, and I wish peace in and around Israel. By the way, I do not agree with the theology that distinguish Jews from Gentiles on the basis of the Noachide covenant versus Mosaic covenant.

 

[Shibolet]

I am not a Jew, even though from my childhood I was nicknamed Jew by mates, because I did not use to attend the school on Sabbaths and because I lived with my family in a Jewish building.

I know Jews and their habits, and since my teen age I began to learn Hebrew. However, I do not speak Israeli Hebrew. I became a teacher of Biblical Hebrew, which is somehow the same language, but an archaic phase of its development. I can understand much reading modern Hebrew, but there are a lot of modern vocabulary where I was not interested to learn, because I lived not in Israel (just visited once). I could dialogue with Jews in Romanian or English.

Hebrew is for me a soul language, just because it is the basic Biblical language. I added Imperial Aramaic (for Daniel and Ezra) and NT Greek. I studied all these languages just for Biblical research. And I am happy for that. I love Jews, and I wish peace in and around Israel. By the way, I do not agree with the theology that distinguish Jews from Gentiles on the basis of the Noachide covenant versus Mosaic covenant.

Your life is interesting! Now, with regards to your saying just above that you do not agree with the theology that distinguishes Jews from Gentiles. Does it mean you don't agree with Jeremiah 46:28 and Mat. 10:5,6? The first says, "But you have no fear My Servant Jacob for I am with you. I will make an end of all the nations among which I have banished you, but I will not make an end of you! I will not leave you unpunished though, but I will chastise you in measure. That's a distinction the Lord makes between Gentiles and Israel. And for Mat. 10:5,6 every time Jesus sent his disciples to spread the gospel of salvation he would warn them not to go the way of the Gentiles especially
Samaritans. What do you say about the distinction Jesus made between Gentiles and Jews?