The Two Concepts of the Sabbath

Shibolet

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The Two Concepts of the Sabbath

1 - Sabbath by definition covers two concepts: The first as a commandment and the second as a ritual.

2 - The Sabbath as a commandment has been from the beginning meant to all Mankind, Jews and Gentiles alike.

3 - The Sabbath as a ritual is for the Jews only that it may be a sign between HaShem and the Jews that they may know that the Lord is their God. (Ezekiel 20:12,20)

4 - The commandment about the Sabbath is to work six days regardless and rest on the seventh day regardless.

5 - The ritual about the Sabbath is to work six fixed and unchanged days and rest on the Sabbath within an unchanged weekly cycle.
 

brightlights

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I agree that the Sabbath command has both ceremonial and moral dimensions (to use reformed, protestant terms). The moral dimensions apply universally and the ceremonial dimensions only directly applied for ethnic Israel at a certain time.

"HaShem" I suppose means "the Name"? As far as I know this construction does not occur anywhere in the OT. Why do you refer to God in this way?

What about the worship dimension of the Sabbath? The Sabbath in the OT was clearly not only a day of rest. It was also a day of solemn assembly and of worship.
 
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Shibolet

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I agree that the Sabbath command has both ceremonial and moral dimensions (to use reformed, protestant terms). The moral dimensions apply universally and the ceremonial dimensions only directly applied for ethnic Israel at a certain time.

"HaShem" I suppose means "the Name"? As far as I know this construction does not occur anywhere in the OT. Why do you refer to God in this way?

What about the worship dimension of the Sabbath? The Sabbath in the OT was clearly not only a day of rest. It was also a day of solemn assembly and of worship.

Hi Brightlights, I am happy to see that we agree with each other. Yes, HaShem simply means "the Name." This is a way to pay homage to the Lord as we try the best we can to avoid using any of God's names. HaShem is of a very common use here in Israel during a conversation even among non-religious Jews.

Now, I know you did not mean but you made a big mistake with the question,
"What about the worship dimension of the Sabbath?" That's a no no for a Jew. Perhaps you meant ...the worship dimension during the Sabbath and not of the Sabbath. Yes, we do make intensive use of the Sabbath to worship HaShem in the Synagogue. Yes, the Sabbath is indeed a day of solemn assembly and worship.
 
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brightlights

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Hi Brightlights, I am happy to see that we agree with each other. Yes, HaShem simply means "the Name." This is just to avoid using any of God's names. HaShem is of a very common use here in Israel during a conversation
even among non-religious Jews.

Now, I know you did not mean but you made a big mistake with the question,
"What about the worship dimension of the Sabbath?" That's a no no for a Jew.
Perhaps you meant ...the worship dimension during the Sabbath and not of the Sabbath. Yes, we do make intensive use of the Sabbath to worship HaShem in the Synagogue. Yes, the Sabbath is indeed a day of solemn assembly and worship.

What do you see is the big difference between saying "the worship dimension of the Sabbath" and "the worship dimension during the Sabbath"? Is not the Sabbath a day of worship?
 
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Shibolet

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What do you see is the big difference between saying "the worship dimension of the Sabbath" and "the worship dimension during the Sabbath"? Is not the Sabbath a day of worship?

...of the Lord yes, not of the Sabbath. The first impression I had when I read you was "of worshiping the Sabbath and not HaShem on the Sabbath. But it is all clear now.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Somewhat of a side question I've never really thought about until now. Is the sabbath command not only a command to rest on a specific day, but also a command to work on every other day? Meaning, if you don't work on every day except the sabbath, would you be violating the sabbath commandment?
 
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BobRyan

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The Two Concepts of the Sabbath

1 - Sabbath by definition covers two concepts: The first as a commandment and the second as a ritual.

2 - The Sabbath as a commandment has been from the beginning meant to all Mankind, Jews and Gentiles alike.

It is first given -- made holy - sanctified - set apart to be kept holy -- in Genesis 2:1-4 and Exodus 20:11 affirms this same point.

It is specifically assigned to gentiles in Isaiah 56:1-8 and in Isaiah 66:23 we have "all mankind" observing it together for all eternity as a day of worship - which is the context in which Isaiah would have known the command

The command is found in this form -- as a day of rest
Exodus 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord(YHWH) your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.



3 - The Sabbath as a ritual is for the Jews only that it may be a sign between HaShem and the Jews that they may know that the Lord is their God. (Ezekiel 20:12,20)

4 - The commandment about the Sabbath is to work six days regardless and rest on the seventh day regardless.

Regardless of what?
"The Seventh day" ? --- "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God"


5 - The ritual about the Sabbath is to work six fixed and unchanged days and rest on the Sabbath within an unchanged weekly cycle.

fixed what?
Where did you get that "Fixed/Regardless" idea from where Sabbath can be kept on Tuesday ... week-day-3 instead of the 7th day that is the "Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) thy God" ?

Exodus 16 says "Tomorrow is the Sabbath" -- there was never a "pick any day you want as the weekly Sabbath" in all of the Tanakh.

The popular Christian idea is that the 7th day - the very one that God gave - has been the Sabbath for all mankind right up until the time when the Catholic church changed it - placing all the authority of scripture behind the 7th day -- on to the first day of the week because Jesus was raised on week-day-1 not the 7th day. It is a deliberate effort to rework this to "The FIRST day iis the Sabbath of the LORD thy God" - keep holy the FIRST day.

It is not "Well we are Christians and we always thought that sunday was the seventh day"
 
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BobRyan

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Somewhat of a side question I've never really thought about until now. Is the sabbath command not only a command to rest on a specific day, but also a command to work on every other day? Meaning, if you don't work on every day except the sabbath, would you be violating the sabbath commandment?

No is not - because in Lev 23 there are holy days -- annual rest days - that come throughout the year - and if we define Sabbath as "you must work those six days" then whenever an annual Sabbath occurred on a week-day it would be "Sabbath breaking" for the weekly Sabbath.
 
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BobRyan

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I agree that the Sabbath command has both ceremonial and moral dimensions (to use reformed, protestant terms). The moral dimensions apply universally and the ceremonial dimensions only directly applied for ethnic Israel at a certain time.

"HaShem" I suppose means "the Name"? As far as I know this construction does not occur anywhere in the OT. Why do you refer to God in this way?

What about the worship dimension of the Sabbath? The Sabbath in the OT was clearly not only a day of rest. It was also a day of solemn assembly and of worship.

And Isaiah 66:23 says it remains a day of worship "for all mankind" for all eternity even in the New Earth.
 
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John Hyperspace

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No is not - because in Lev 23 there are holy days -- annual rest days - that come throughout the year - and if we define Sabbath as "you must work those six days" then whenever an annual Sabbath occurred on a week-day it would be "Sabbath breaking" for the weekly Sabbath.

I don't know I'm looking at the commandment and it looks to clearly be a command to work every day but the 7th.

Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

I presume the holy convocations would supersede the command in the same way the sabbath command supersedes days of fasting.
 
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Shibolet

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Somewhat of a side question I've never really thought about until now. Is the sabbath command not only a command to rest on a specific day, but also a command to work on every other day? Meaning, if you don't work on every day except the sabbath, would you be violating the sabbath commandment?

No, John, no violation there; the thing is exactly as you have said above. To be a Sabbath keeper, one must work six days and rest on the Sabbath, unless he is a retired person.
 
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John Hyperspace

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No, John, no violation there; the thing is exactly as you have said above. To be a Sabbath keeper, one must work six days and rest on the Sabbath, unless he is a retired person.

I don't see anything about "unless you're retired" in the commandment. If the work six days doesn't apply to someone who is retired, then the rest one day wouldn't either, true?
 
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Shibolet

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It is first given -- made holy - sanctified - set apart to be kept holy -- in Genesis 2:1-4 and Exodus 20:11 affirms this same point.

And I agree with you.

It is specifically assigned to gentiles in Isaiah 56:1-8 and in Isaiah 66:23 we have "all mankind" observing it together for all eternity as a day of worship - which is the context in which Isaiah would have known the command.

Here I can't agree with you. It was not assigned to the Gentiles qua Gentiles but through conversion to Judaism according to Halacha. (Isaiah 56:1-8)

Regardless of what? "The Seventh day" ? --- "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God."

That's for the Gentiles. Regardless of the day they choose to observe. The Sabbath can be any day of the week after six working days.

fixed what? Where did you get that "Fixed/Regardless" idea from where Sabbath can be kept on Tuesday ... week-day-3 instead of the 7th day that is the "Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) thy God" ?

This is for the Jews. A day fixed. The seventh day is always on Saturday after six days of work.

Exodus 16 says "Tomorrow is the Sabbath" -- there was never a "pick any day you want as the weekly Sabbath" in all of the Tanakh.

Good! I thought about using that quote and I see that you have done the job for me. I agree with you.

The popular Christian idea is that the 7th day - the very one that God gave - has been the Sabbath for all mankind right up until the time when the Catholic church changed it - placing all the authority of scripture behind the 7th day -- on to the first day of the week because Jesus was raised on week-day-1 not the 7th day. It is a deliberate effort to rework this to "The FIRST day iis the Sabbath of the LORD thy God" - keep holy the FIRST day.

According to Paul, Christians can use any day after they work six days.

It is not "Well we are Christians and we always thought that sunday was the seventh day"

According to Paul in Romans 14 that's what he meant. Sunday is the seventh after six days from Monday to Saturday.
 
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Shibolet

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I don't see anything about "unless you're retired" in the commandment. If the work six days doesn't apply to someone who is retired, then the rest one day wouldn't either, true?

No John, that's me. I am using of Logic because you must agree with me that the commandment of the Sabbath cannot be applied to a 70 or 80 years old person.
 
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John Hyperspace

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No John, that's me. I am using of Logic because you must agree with me that the commandment of the Sabbath cannot be applied to a 70 or 80 years old person.

Depends on the fitness of someone of that age. My grandfather worked every day of his life until he died at 90. I do agree that people not able to work would be exempt from the rule; regardless of age.

I'm just noting that I just realized the sabbath command isn't just about one day of rest; but about a pattern of six days of work and one day of rest. It changes the command significantly. That means for carnal sabbath-keepers, no day off from work except one.
 
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BobRyan

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I'm just noting that I just realized the sabbath command isn't just about one day of rest; but about a pattern of six days of work and one day of rest. It changes the command significantly. That means for carnal sabbath-keepers, no day off from work except one.

Not quite true - there were annual Sabbaths in Leviticus 23 that could fall on any day of the week - if we bend the meaning of the weekly Sabbath to force it to say that keeping one of the annual Sabbaths is to break the Exodus 20 weekly Sabbath - we would be in error.
 
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BobRyan

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That's for the Gentiles. Regardless of the day they choose to observe. The Sabbath can be any day of the week.

You are merely "quoting you" as your "source" on that point.

I am a gentile - could I stand before God and say "sure your WORD says the 7th day is the Sabbath - but Shibolet says otherwise. He says I can pick any day I wish -- so I am going with him on that point"?

I think we both know that would be foolish.

Hint: Adam and Eve kept Sabbath on their 2nd day - FIRST full day of life - in Genesis 2:1-3. So they had not worked 6 full days prior to keeping GOD's Commandment. The fact is this is God's seventh day Sabbath. "The seventh day is THE Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) Thy God"

God "could" have made Adam on week-day-1 to make it "appear" that Adam had worked 6 days then rested on the Sabbath. But God makes it clear that Adam is to observe GOD's Sabbath.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I don't know I'm looking at the commandment and it looks to clearly be a command to work every day but the 7th.

Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

I presume the holy convocations would supersede the command in the same way the sabbath command supersedes days of fasting.
Notice the words "all thy work"... for some professions, like farming, your work is flat out during planting and harvest time but more relaxed during summer and especially winter. Because I have a manufacturing job, I do all my work, what is required by my employer, in 4 or 5 days. The key here is to get 'r all done in 6 days or less cause you don't that 7th day... thats God's day.
 
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Shibolet

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You are merely "quoting you" as your "source" on that point.

I am a gentile - could I stand before God and say "sure your WORD says the 7th day is the Sabbath - but Shibolet says otherwise. He says I can pick any day I wish -- so I am going with him on that point"?

I think we both know that would be foolish.

Hint: Adam and Eve kept Sabbath on their 2nd day - FIRST full day of life - in Genesis 2:1-3. So they had not worked 6 full days prior to keeping GOD's Commandment. The fact is this is God's seventh day Sabbath. "The seventh day is THE Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) Thy God"

God "could" have made Adam on week-day-1 to make it "appear" that Adam had worked 6 days then rested on the Sabbath. But God makes it clear that Adam is to observe GOD's Sabbath.

No sir, I am not quoting myself but Paul in Romans 14. Listen Bob, Isaiah has already made it very clear that Gentiles are welcome to join. Isaiah 56:1-8 And I tell you, even if you don't want to join but want to keep the Sabbath as we do, you will be only adding an extra blessing from HaShem to add the Jewish aspect of the Sabbath aka the ritual one. If you were having this conversation with another Jew, he would say to you that you are not obliged to any concept of the Sabbath commandment at all. Why? Because Gentiles are bound to the Noahide laws, not the Decalogue. And there is nothing about a commandment to keep the Sabbath in the Noahide laws. I am already agreeing with Paul that you can choose any day you want to keep it holy but as I can see, you want more; be our guest and a candidate for a name better than sons and daughters. (Isaiah 56:5)

HaShem does not need a day to rest; so the Sabbath, He made it for man, not man for the Sabbath. It means that the Lord does not need it as we do. I do understand what you mean when you say that HaShem made it clear that Adam was to observe the Sabbath. There is a midrash which says that, after the Lord established the Sabbath as a commandment, He submitted His Tora Law to all the peoples on earth and all of them rejected it but one, Israel. Hence, HaShem's statement that "Israel is My son." (Exodus 4:22,23)
 
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Shibolet

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Depends on the fitness of someone of that age. My grandfather worked every day of his life until he died at 90. I do agree that people not able to work would be exempt from the rule; regardless of age.

I'm just noting that I just realized the sabbath command isn't just about one day of rest; but about a pattern of six days of work and one day of rest. It changes the command significantly. That means for carnal sabbath-keepers, no day off from work except one.

John, you do have the Spirit of HaShem working in your mind! You can be classified as a righteous Gentile. I'll try to remember you when standing before the Wailing Wall this year of 2017.
 
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