The Tulip is broken

[oworm]

Is Faith the Gift of God? What Does Jesus Say?

This question has always been a controversial one, yet this is puzzling considering how plainly the answer to this question is granted to us in the Holy Scriptures. Some modern Evangelicals seem to think that faith is something that arises out of the fallen natures of some persons but not others ... and that this difference in response is not due to grace (for all had grace), but rather, some inherent difference in the persons themselves. But Jesus puts this kind of speculation to rest:
Jesus declares "no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:65) In the same passage Jesus declares: " all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me." (John 6:37) In both verses the phrase "come to Me" simply means "believe in Me" and so taken together Jesus is stating that no one can believe in Him unless God grants it, and all to whom God grants it will believe". According to this passage, then, God grants faith, a faith that will infallibly arise in the heart of those He has given His Son...

Faith is not the product of an unregenerated human nature. If a person becomes humble enough to submit to God it is because the Holy Spirit has given that person a new, humble nature ... not because some men are more humble than others. It was not by chance that one person believed the gospel and not the other, nor was it because one had some innate virtue that the other lacked. It is grace and grace ALONE that makes men to differ, not the exertion of men's wills. While God requires faith of all men He promises to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life his Holy Spirit (John 6:63-65), which quickens and disarms hostility so they are willing, and able to believe.
(Also see 2 Chronicles 30:11-12; Phil 1:29, 2 Tim 2:25, Acts 13:48, Rom 9:15-18; John 1:13; 1 John 5:1)

Please not FOLKS that I am posting a link to my citation of this quote

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/07/is_faith_the_gift_of_god_what.php

 

[cygnusx1]

Let's see...

Am I going with Hodge and Kuyper

or

JDS and Van ???

Princeton or a dark alley ? it's a tough one ....

 

[oworm]

Let's see...

Am I going with Hodge and Kuyper

or

JDS and Van ???

Or the Apostle Paul who said:

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Hmmm I wonder what that means? Does God assign FAITH?

 

[JDS]

Princeton or a dark alley ? it's a tough one ....

Absolute proof that Calvinism gives life on both ends of the Ordo Salutis according to their own words "IF", and it is a very big if, salvation is passing from death unto life.

Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God that Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God that Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive.
Sometimes the term irresistible grace is used in this connection. It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. The term irresistible grace is subject to misunderstanding, however, since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary choice in responding to the gospel - a wrong idea, and a wrong understanding of the term irresistible grace. The term does preserve something valuable, however, because it indicates that God's work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain - even tough we respond voluntarily.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 699)

I asked the definition of salvation and was ignored. According to this gentleman, regeneration is not BY faith, but unto faith, although he admits that regeneration is the gift of life.

So one cannot really say one is saved by faith, can one?

 

[JDS]

Or the Apostle Paul who said:

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Hmmm I wonder what that means? Does God assign FAITH?

Not in the authorized King James Bible that was translated from the received texts out of Antioch. Sorry!

 

[cygnusx1]

Absolute proof that Calvinism gives life on both ends of the Ordo Salutis according to their own words "IF", and it is a very big if, salvation is passing from death unto life.

Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God that Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God that Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive.
Sometimes the term irresistible grace is used in this connection. It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. The term irresistible grace is subject to misunderstanding, however, since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary choice in responding to the gospel - a wrong idea, and a wrong understanding of the term irresistible grace. The term does preserve something valuable, however, because it indicates that God's work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain - even tough we respond voluntarily.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 699)

I asked the definition of salvation and was ignored. According to this gentleman, regeneration is not BY faith, but unto faith, although he admits that regeneration is the gift of life.

So one cannot really say one is saved by faith, can one?

regeneration is not by faith , salvation is by Grace through faith = Salvation is NOT Regeneration .

 

[nobdysfool]

Not in the authorized King James Bible that was translated from the received texts out of Antioch. Sorry!

Dealt, assigned, what's the difference? Now you're getting nit-picky. You're a KJV-only guy, that much is clear, so you worship the Book as well as Christ, which means you're in error, because we worship Christ, and Christ alone, because He is God.

Your hatred for Calvinism has twisted your mind.

Oh, and you still haven't explained how you arrived at your fallacious "98%" remark.

 

[JDS]

regeneration is not by faith , salvation is by Grace through faith = Salvation is NOT Regeneration .

WHAT IS SALVATION THEN!

 

[JDS]

Dealt, assigned, what's the difference? Now you're getting nit-picky. You're a KJV-only guy, that much is clear, so you worship the Book as well as Christ, which means you're in error, because we worship Christ, and Christ alone, because He is God.

Your hatred for Calvinism has twisted your mind.

Oh, and you still haven't explained how you arrived at your fallacious "98%" remark.

I do not want this to become a bible version issue but some of your translations have more than 6000 words fewer than a KJV. They are not to be trusted!

I have read the scriptures for years and I have noticed a numerical framework to the scriptures that depend upon the times words are used. This gives insight into the mind of God. This could not be true with your translation.

 

[oworm]

Not in the authorized King James Bible that was translated from the received texts out of Antioch. Sorry!

Romans 12:3 King James Version



"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

How is that any different from the text I quoted?

 

[JDS]

Romans 12:3 King James Version



"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

How is that any different from the text I quoted?

This text is not in the context of salvation. It is in the contect of the position in the body. Service, if you will. If this was in the context of salvation, it would be calling for a willful action on the part of man, and you folks say that is not possible if it is by grace sola.Remember?

 

[cygnusx1]

This text is not in the context of salvation. It is in the contect of the position in the body. Service, if you will. If this was in the context of salvation, it would be calling for a willful action on the part of man, and you folks say that is not possible if it is by grace sola.Remember?

You mean a bit like when the disciples said "Lord , increase our faith .......... "

We create our own faith , but only the Lord can increase it ?

doesn't stack up .....

All faith (Trust) comes from without , we trust a person based upon something in that person , that is why liars and deceivers often are successful at manipulation because they known all faith begins from without !

 

[nobdysfool]

I do not want this to become a bible version issue but some of your translations have more than 6000 words fewer than a KJV. They are not to be trusted!

I have read the scriptures for years and I have noticed a numerical framework to the scriptures that depend upon the times words are used. This gives insight into the mind of God. This could not be true with your translation.

Circular reasoning. You set the KJV as the standard, and then measure everything against it. I'll bet the KJV has more words in it than the original autographs, taken together. Greek does not transliterate into English. Your number theory falls apart at that point. And the so-called "Bible Code" is nothing more than divination, which is a sin condemned by God.

The longer you post, the more error we see in your theology. Start with Universalism, and go from there.

 

[Van]

Anyone can google the pages. If Oworm claims he cannot, he is simply posting yet another falsehood. The TULIP is broken, and proclaiming personal incredulity does not mend it.

 

[A New Dawn]

Anyone can google the pages. If Oworm claims he cannot, he is simply posting yet another falsehood. The TULIP is broken, and proclaiming personal incredulity does not mend it.

Why don't you cut out the name calling and just post a link if you have one?

 

[nobdysfool]

Why don't you cut out the name calling and just post a link if you have one?

How hard is it to just post the link here? I get the feeling someone doesn't want to. Someone would rather belittle than be gracious. Hatred of Calvinism produces some pretty rotten fruit.

 

[Van]

Hi New Dawn, I see that you have charged me with name calling. Here is a quote:"You debating credibility (if indeed you had any) is quickly diminishing Van. You are self exposed as a sham as you continue to squirm and avoid the question." Now that is out and out name calling, but you did not object when a Calvinist called me names. I did not call anyone names, I said Oworm made a false statement and I backed it up with a quote. You requested I provide a source and I did, giving the author, the book title and the page numbers. Further, I pointed out that this source can be googled and found on the internet. As always, I treat Calvinists with respect as individuals, but I do point out when they call me names and make false statements about my position, which I support with quotes.

 

[Van]

Hi New Dawn, because the pronoun ("that") is in the neuter gender, it can refer back to a conceptual antecedent. D. Wallace explains all this in Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics. The conceptual antecedent is salvation by grace through faith. Salvation is the gift in view, and salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

D. Wallace also explains why the argument presented by Kuyper is without merit, see pages 334 and 335.

Every time you see a Calvinist express the idea that Ephesians 2:8 supports its false doctrine of the gift of faith, know that Calvinism is thus supported by faulty understanding of the text.

Greek grammar precludes that the antecedent of "that" is faith, because the gender of "that" in the Greek is neuter, while the gender of "faith" in the Greek is female.

 

[JDS]

You mean a bit like when the disciples said "Lord , increase our faith .......... "

We create our own faith , but only the Lord can increase it ?

doesn't stack up .....

All faith (Trust) comes from without , we trust a person based upon something in that person , that is why liars and deceivers often are successful at manipulation because they known all faith begins from without !

Faith is the principle one must exercise if he has intellect and reason but does not have full knowledge. In other words, if he is not omniscient! it is never said that Jesus Christ ever did anything by faith. Why? Because he said he did always those things that pleased the Father. This precluded that he always knew what pleased the Father. He had full knowledge.

The heroes of faith were numbered in Hebrews 11 which was written some 35 years after the resurrection of Christ and his name is not there. This is one of the concluding statements about these heros of the faith; Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But the scriptures actually makes this case about faith and knowledge and I am going to type slowly so you will better be able to see it:

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part (This is partial knowledge)

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I hope you will read that verse again. Whatever the perfect thing is, it will do away with partial knowledge and partial prophecy, which means the perfect thing with bring full knowledge.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Now we have a maturity context for the perfect thing and a "now" and "then" verse letting us know that we are dealing with a time frame, or as I like to say, a dispensational consideration. Read those verses again:

Now I see through a glass darkly = now I know in part; (Partial knowledge)

Then Face to Face = Then I shall know even as I am known (Full knowledge)

Lets go on in the text:

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The reason charity is greatest is because it is the eternal principle that is the operative principle of eternity and the perfect thing will not cause it to cease when it is instituted and full knowledge will do away with faith, and if one possesses what what was the object of his faith, he no longer has hope for it. (24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it). Charity is defined in the first verses of this chapter.

So, the perfect thing equals the eternal state when we see Jesus face to face. Faith then is explained here for all who want to see and for those who do not want to see, nothing can help you.

Faith in Christ comes from hearing about him because it gives us something to believe and believing, we have hope in his salvation.

Ro 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now, you can follow those rhetorical questions about faith and hearing in Rom 10 and come to the right understanding, but I doubt if you will because you have bought into the false unscriptural idea that faith comes by election and is a gift and unsaved men cannot believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved like is plainly stated as his duty and opportunity to do all through the NT. This is absolutely wild! Consequently, you do not believe anything the bible says.

 

[cygnusx1]

Greek grammar precludes that the antecedent of "that" is faith, because the gender of "that" in the Greek is neuter, while the gender of "faith" in the Greek is female.

which makes the text needlessly and stupidly repetitive , see Charles Hodge.


Even without a working knowledge of the Greek one can perceive salvation is by grace through faith , and that (salvation through faith) is NOT of yourself it is the gift of God .... No-one ever supposed Grace was not a gift , because it is diametrically opposite to merit. ... so FAITH is underlined as even being a gift !