The Tulip is broken

[Van]

Oworm where has it been shown? ROFLOL Why did you ask me for the link?

 

[Van]

Final point, no one said nor suggested that our choice causes us to be saved or not, but we do choose to trust in Christ or not, and that faith is what God credits as righteousness or not. So God has mercy on whoever He wills, and according to John 3:16, He wills to have mercy upon those who believe in Jesus.

 

[heymikey80]

Hi New Dawn, now my posts are called mindless repetitions, but the fact is all the Calvinists repeatedly disparage me, using the logical fallacy of a personal attack such as "mindless."

You're telling me it took thought to cut & paste exactly what you said before. I challenged that post, it's missing something. Pasting the exact thing without answering the challenge -- doesn't answer the challenge.

In addition, your statement above invalidates over a hundred comments about "same old thing" that you've leveled against Calvinists and other people here, Van.

Your arguments fall back against you. Your arguments disparage you. I merely point out they apply to you.

And note, the supposed rebuttal did not actually address the fact that for us to make choices, they have to be autonomous or they are not choices.

No need to address what isn't a rebuttal. The repeat of the prior post doesn't even rise to answering the challenge of finding one slender Scripture that talks about our decisions being autonomous -- made by laws we set for ourselves.

And your philosophical assertion in the post after it isn't supported by a single Scripture. That would make it your philosophy, not Scriptural reality.

Without an answer, and with continued bluster, I consider Van's view successfully refuted as not being Scriptural. I've provided explicit, plain Scripture regarding this issue. Van's resorted to Mt 13 & 23, neither even mentioning nor focused on this issue of autonomy, just interpreted by Van to mean what he wants them to mean.

 

[MamaZ]

The "I" refers to irresistible grace,

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

 

[MamaZ]

The "T" refers to total spiritual inability and has been shown to be broken by Matthew 13:20-22 where unregenerate folks receive the gospel with joy.

One must look at see who tills the ground and is the vine dresser. It is not the man but God

 

[cygnusx1]

Rom.4

[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


what was counted to Abraham for righteousness ? this text has been misunderstood by many , who will not go further and study , laziness is the father of Biblical errors , let's go back to where this quote is referring to ;

Gen.15

[1] After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
[2] And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
[3] And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
[4] And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[6] And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


the "it" of verse Gen 15:6 clearly is referring to the seed of verse 5 ... the seed is Christ !


Christ is the believers righteousness , not our imperfect faith dear reader , Romans 3:24 declares we are justified FREELY by His Grace . Such can only be the case if we are granted faith as a gift of Grace , and Christ is OUR Righteousness.

Geoffrey Wilson commenting on Romans 4:3 says ,

"... it is obvious that 'faith' is not to be understood as a work which is reckoned as righteousness by God. The preposition (eis) must rather mean that faith is unto righteousness ; it is the instrument through which the believer becomes personally interested in the justifying righteousness of Chrsit .

 

[MamaZ]

The "U" refers to unconditional election and has been shown to be broken by James 2:5 where God chooses folks for salvation based on their characteristics.

One must look at the full context of the scripture for God is not a respector of persons.. James is speaking of partiality here of men not of God.

 

[MamaZ]

The "L" refers to limited atonement as defined by Calvinism, and has been shown to be broken by 1 John 2:2 where Christ is the propitiation for the whole world.

This He is but only to those whom God calls. For only those will believe and have saving faith

 

[Van]

MamaZ, you mean Christ died for the whole world, but not everyone receives the benefit of that sacrifice? That He is the propitiation for the whole world, but not everyone receives the propitiation. Well, it that is your point, I am convinced you are correct.

However according to the "L" of Calvinism, Christ died only for the elect, so the "L" as defined by Calvinism is shown to be broken by 1 John 2:2.

 

[Van]

James 2:5 is showning God is not partial to rich folks, but He is partial to folks who love Him. That is why He chose them, keeping His promise to those who love Him. Folks who are rich in faith, but not necessarily rich in the eyes of the world.

 

[drstevej]

There are some Christmas Calvinists (No-L).

The key issue in Calvinism is monergism versus salvation helper Arminianism

 

[Van]

Folks I see personal incredulity being offered up yet again as a rebuttal to scripture. Choice means choice, the scripture uses the word choice again and again, so every time you see choice it says autonomous decision. Every time.

 

[cygnusx1]

Folks I see personal incredulity being offered up yet again as a rebuttal to scripture. Choice means choice, the scripture uses the word choice again and again, so every time you see choice it says autonomous decision. Every time.

chapter and verse van !

 

[cygnusx1]

James 2:5 is showning God is not partial to rich folks, but He is partial to folks who love Him. That is why He chose them, keeping His promise to those who love Him. Folks who are rich in faith, but not necessarily rich in the eyes of the world.

POPPYCOCK VAN !!!!!


Was Thomas rich in faith folks ?

don't be fooled by vanisms....... even Abraham's faith was far from perfect. Salvation is of God's mercy not man's "RICH FAITH" , so called.

 

[cygnusx1]

MamaZ, you mean Christ died for the whole world, but not everyone receives the benefit of that sacrifice? That He is the propitiation for the whole world, but not everyone receives the propitiation. Well, it that is your point, I am convinced you are correct.

However according to the "L" of Calvinism, Christ died only for the elect, so the "L" as defined by Calvinism is shown to be broken by 1 John 2:2.

1 john 2:2 breaks nothing , it bears witness that Christ is the saviour of the world ; World (Cosmos) never means everybody , otherwise dozens of contradictions will appear .. not least that Christ prayed not for "the world " therefore he can have prayed for no-one!

The whole world has gone after him said the Pharisees , obviously van must admit everyone who ever lived MUST have gone out after Christ !

“.... the whole world has gone after him” [John 12:19 ] Did all the world go after Christ?
such absurdities testify of lazy Biblical efforts at work

 

[oworm]

Yesterday, Oworm, I could bring up both pages 334 and 335, but today, the web page has changed and now page 335 is not part of the link. However, when I made the statement, both pages were accessible and I read them on the web. However today, I only make the statement that page 334 is accessible on the web. Note that the Author, the book title and page numbers have been provided and copies of the book are available, even perhaps in your Pastor's study.

Can you provide the link please?

 

[oworm]

Oworm where has it been shown? ROFLOL Why did you ask me for the link?

I asked you for the link because I cannot find such a link. Can you provide a link to the page that you can access please?

 

[cygnusx1]

I asked you for the link because I cannot find such a link. Can you provide a link to the page that you can access please?

if van will not give it there must be a reason

have you attempted a google bro ? that is how NBF caught out van for a duck last time !


The Sovereignty God and Human Freewill
"We like God reigning in a universal way, as in keeping hurricanes out to sea, or keeping the planets in their fixed orbits. We especially like God keeping traffic moving smoothly as we go to work. In these situations, we endure God on His throne, and if He obediently sits on this throne, built by our egocentric imaginations, we will lift holy hands singing, "Our God Reigns!""

 

[oworm]

Folks
Please note that Van has been consistently evasive in providing a direct hyper link. We all know how easy it is to provide links to the sources that we cite and it is normal proceedure on a discussion forum to do this. After an extensive search I think I may have tracked down the page that Van is reffering to although for the life of me I cannot uinderstand why he would not simply do this->http://books.google.com/books?ct=re...U3uLs9nYdIIlQq3AJ86IVjgAMSi7g&q=335#PPA818,M1

It really wasn't that difficult to copy and paste the hyperlink. Of course as Van said, the pages that he reffered to earlier are no longer available to view. Oh well,hopefully we can clear this up when I get my own hard copy and am able to refer to those pages and post my findings.

 

[Van]

Philippians 1:28 does provide a possible example of a gender shift, i.e "that" could refer to salvation. But it could also refer to the concept, the whole idea that our standing up to adversity because of our commitment as a born again believer to present the gospel provides evidence to (1) those on the other side that they are on the wrong road and (2) evidence that we are saved. Therefore both verses, Phillipians 1:28 and Ephesians 2:8 are more likely examples of a conceptual anticedant, rather than gender shift.