The Tulip is broken

[cygnusx1]

Faith is the principle one must exercise if he has intellect and reason but does not have full knowledge. In other words, if he is not omniscient! it is never said that Jesus Christ ever did anything by faith. Why? Because he said he did always those things that pleased the Father. This precluded that he always knew what pleased the Father. He had full knowledge.

The heroes of faith were numbered in Hebrews 11 which was written some 35 years after the resurrection of Christ and his name is not there. This is one of the concluding statements about these heros of the faith; Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But the scriptures actually makes this case about faith and knowledge and I am going to type slowly so you will better be able to see it:

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part (This is partial knowledge)

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I hope you will read that verse again. Whatever the perfect thing is, it will do away with partial knowledge and partial prophecy, which means the perfect thing with bring full knowledge.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Now we have a maturity context for the perfect thing and a "now" and "then" verse letting us know that we are dealing with a time frame, or as I like to say, a dispensational consideration. Read those verses again:

Now I see through a glass darkly = now I know in part; (Partial knowledge)

Then Face to Face = Then I shall know even as I am known (Full knowledge)

Lets go on in the text:

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The reason charity is greatest is because it is the eternal principle that is the operative principle of eternity and the perfect thing will not cause it to cease when it is instituted and full knowledge will do away with faith, and if one possesses what faith has promised, he no longer has hope for it. Charity is defined in the first verses of this chapter.

So, the perfect thing that does these things is the eternal state when we see Jesus face to face. Faith then is explained here for all who want to see and for those who do not want to see, nothing can help you.

Faith in Christ comes from hearing about him because it gives us something to believe and believing, we have hope in his salvation.

Ro 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now, you can follow those rhetorical questions about faith and hearing in Rom 10 and come to the right understanding, but I doubt if you will because you have bought into the false unscriptural idea that faith comes by election and is a gift and unsaved men cannot believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved like is plainly stated as his duty and opportunity to do all through the NT. This is absolutely wild! Consequently, you do not believe anything the bible says.

There was NONE who had greater Faith than Christ , He trusted in God appears in MY BIBLE !!! ....Matthew 27:43


Faith and Knowledge are not opposed - and 1 Cor 13 is speaking of Canon... faith continues even when PROPHECY and MIRACULOUS KNOWLEDGE is COMPLETE (perfect).

the 'perfect' (1 Cor 13) is an "it" , not a person! Go read some Greek!

"face to face" is a metaphor , it's meaning is made plain in the time of Moses who is said to have had "face to face" knowledge , because he never saw God's FACE !

Exodus 33:7-11; 33:18 - 34:9; 34:29-35 (33) 7 Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, far off from the camp; and he called it the tent of meeting. And every one who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting, which was outside the camp. 8 Whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose up, and every man stood at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he had gone into the tent. 9 When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the door of the tent, and the LORD would speak with Moses. 10 And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the door of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, every man at his tent door. 11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tent.

All faith (Trust) comes from without , we trust a person based upon something in that person , that is why liars and deceivers often are successful at manipulation because they known all faith begins from without !

 

[cygnusx1]

origin of our faith ;


The Faith of Jesus Christ - Romans 3:21-22


this article shows how we are saved ; not merely faith in , but faith of .....

http://thegospelofgod.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/the-faith-of-jesus-christ-romans-321-22/

 

[MamaZ]

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.
Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people He has chosen as His own inheritance.
Psa 33:13 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men.
Psa 33:14 From the place of His dwelling He looks On all the inhabitants of the earth;
Psa 33:15 He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.


Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

 

[JDS]

There was NONE who had greater Faith than Christ , He trusted in God appears in MY BIBLE !!! ....Matthew 27:43


Faith and Knowledge are not opposed - and 1 Cor 13 is speaking of Canon... faith continues even when PROPHECY and MIRACULOUS KNOWLEDGE is COMPLETE (perfect).

the 'perfect' (1 Cor 13) is an "it" , not a person! Go read some Greek!

"face to face" is a metaphor , it's meaning is made plain in the time of Moses who is said to have had "face to face" knowledge , because he never saw God's FACE !

Exodus 33:7-11; 33:18 - 34:9; 34:29-35 (33) 7 Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, far off from the camp; and he called it the tent of meeting. And every one who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting, which was outside the camp. 8 Whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose up, and every man stood at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he had gone into the tent. 9 When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the door of the tent, and the LORD would speak with Moses. 10 And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the door of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, every man at his tent door. 11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tent.

All faith (Trust) comes from without , we trust a person based upon something in that person , that is why liars and deceivers often are successful at manipulation because they known all faith begins from without !

Are you kidding? These comments blow me away and are the most revealing that I have seen in a long time. If you are going to quote Christ's enemies as being truth, you should at least tell us that you are in agreement with them. The same people said that he cast out devils by the power of Beelzebub. Do you believe that too?

Here is the context of Mat 27:
33 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull, 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. 35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots. 36 And sitting down they watched him there; 37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. 39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, 40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. 44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.


The Chief Priests and scribes and elders were mocking him with this statement!

Your credibility and ability and desire to discern context hangs in the balance now.


"face to face" is a metaphor

A metaphor? Do you believe God was not in the pillar and the cloud? Do you not believe the record? He did actually speak to Moses face to face.

1 Cor 13 is speaking of canon faith? What is that?

I said that the perfect thing is a person? I said the perfect thing in 1 Cor 13 is the eternal state. It is a dispensation of the love of God as the eternal operative principle of his divine deaings with his creation.

You sir, are arguing exactly against what we are being told in these Scriptures.

I wonder if any of your friends will kindly correct you and show you your error? We will see!

 

[JDS]

origin of our faith ;


The Faith of Jesus Christ - Romans 3:21-22


this article shows how we are saved ; not merely faith in , but faith of .....

http://thegospelofgod.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/the-faith-of-jesus-christ-romans-321-22/

The author says you cannot make this case from your bible.

He says:
But what is the ‘faith of Jesus Christ’ and just how did that manifest the righteousness of God in the Gospel?
[FONT='Palatino Linotype','serif']Mistranslations considered[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/FONT]
Well, before answering that question, sadly we need to take some time to brush aside the obscuring of this glorious truth in many modern translations of the Bible. Not all translations have rendered the phrase with the same accuracy as the Authorized Version of the Bible, and for this reason quite a degree of confusion has been caused regarding the truths brought out in these passages. Indeed rather than revealing the righteousness of God in the Gospel through the faith of Jesus Christ, these mistranslations of the Bible have all but hidden it!
[FONT='Palatino Linotype','serif']Most modern ‘translations’ of the Bible, including the NIV and the NKJV, have altered this vital phrase to read ‘faith [/FONT][FONT='Palatino Linotype','serif']in[/FONT] Jesus Christ’ which gives a very different meaning to the verses. But why have the translators chosen to alter the passages in this way?

 

[heymikey80]

(1) What part of us makes us believe? ... [malicious attacks elided] ... Because the anwer is our God given ability to autonomously believe or not believe, to trust or rely upon this or that!

Question: Where's your Scripture stating "autonomous"? Answer: you don't have one.

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5). Council of Orange, Canon 7
​

It's an ancient determination that this is essentially heresy. Go look to Scripture, which says that you require changes by the Holy Spirit before you can do anything. To whine about how Matthew 13 or 23 supports your view is simply deflection. It doesn't. It doesn't say anything about these people being autonomous.

So as I follow Scripture and not the vain view of my own dislike of certain Calvinists I've met, I submit to Scripture which states in so many words, "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Rom 9:16

Those who have not learned from history are condemned to repeat it.

You can dabble in the semi-Pelagianism developed from merging Augustine and Pelagius, sure. Plenty of churches have done so, certainly quite a number of people here support it. It just slices apart the categories Paul uses, and thus cuts to ribbons and rearranges the points Paul makes. It's not Scriptural. But it's largely what people believe to try to hold together these two inconsistent views of God's Gospel.

 

[heymikey80]

Oworm,
Please demonstrate how you can refute D. Wallace? LOL

Easy, btdt.

In fact Paul himself has stated things this way before, no problem, and no grammatical foul called.

Ep 2:8 -- "... through faith [fem], and that [neut] not of yourselves [masc]"
Pp 1:28 -- "... but to you of salvation [fem], and that [neut] from God [masc]"

Anyone deny Pp 1:28 refers to that salvation which is from God?

No.

It's only when Scripture says what doesn't fit a chosen theology that: "Let the attacks begin!"

 

[Van]

What part of us makes us believe in Christ as Lord and Savior.

​

(1) What part of us makes us believe? Folks do you see how compulsion is embedded into Calvinist thinking? Why not ask what part of us allows us to believe? Because the anwer is our God given ability to autonomously believe or not believe, to trust or rely upon this or that!

(2) What allows us to believe in Christ? Four things (a) God allows us to come to Christ, He does not preclude us by hardening our hearts. (b) We have not so hardened our own heart by the practice of sin that we are unable to even understand the gospel. (c) We believe in God and are "of God" which is to say under the influence of God. And (d) we hear or are exposed to the gospel of Christ.

(3) Does our God given ability to understand some spiritual things in our natural fallen state reside in our human spirit or in our flesh? In our human spirit. Romans 2 says we can understand the invisible attributes of God from what He has made, so the spirit can learn from our environment, or put another way, from what God puts before us, which includes His revelation.

(4) Does our faith originate from God? Yes, God is the first cause of everything. God gave us the ability to hear, understand, accept and trust fully in God. God provided His revelation, including the gospel of Christ which is the power of God to salvation.
Does this mean God instills our faith via irresistible grace, and therefore compels us to believe? Nope

 

[heymikey80]

Are you kidding?

For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying,
"I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."And again,
"I will put my trust in him."
And again,
"Behold, I and the children God has given me." Heb 1:11-13

​

Of course the founder of our faith also had faith of the most complete kind.

And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Pp 2:8
​

I realize you guys rarely recognize the role "trust" takes up in the Greek word for "obey", but let's be clear. It's definitely there. It's not talking about someone who is compulsively doing what someone else demands, without trusting the commander. It's talking about the Form of God -- the Divine Power starting and supporting all Creation -- humbling Himself and trustingly obeying His Father.

What is a father if he isn't trustworthy? Is he a father at all?

"Our Father in heaven ..."
​

And so Jesus is not completely silent about His Own trust in the Father:

Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" Lk 23:46
​

Faith isn't mindless, brainless, thoughtless commitment. Faith is simply the result of commitment. Faith is placing yourself into the hands of another.

And Jesus did that.

 

[Van]

Demonstrate the choice is autonomous? If it is not autonomous, it is not a choice but a compulsion. QED

 

[heymikey80]

So by mindless repetition Van intends to respond to my question requiring the Scripture stating God grants us autonomy -- without a Scripture. An interpretation that would make Pelagius proud.

As for me I'll listen to Paul:

So then God has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Rom 9:18​

 

[heymikey80]

Folks, Let's keep our eye on the ball here, and ignore JDS and his attempts to hijack the thread.

The question has been put forth, and a request made, for a certain poster to parse the Greek in Ephesians 2 and demonstrate his contention that Faith is not a gift of God. Let's focus on that, and ignore the flack and noise from the anti-Calvinist who wants to derail this thread.

While Wallace is a respected, if but one, scholar of Greek grammar, I'd just point out a short list of people who aren't scholars -- but native speakers -- of Middle Greek.

As John Chrysosotom and Theodosius and Augustine and the Council of Orange would beg to differ with Wallace. I'd have to as well. There's no one who's a native speaker of NT Greek today. But when it comes to consulting native speakers, Wallace's objection doesn't seem to be a serious issue.

You'd think it would be.

But no.

These guys aren't particularly Calvinists, either. In fact up to Aquinas there wasn't any real objection to the question of where faith came from. Well, from within non-heretical circles at least.

Only when the direction of Scripture toward Calvinism is recognized, does this objection appear in more mainstream Christian theologies.

 

[cygnusx1]

Demonstrate the choice is autonomous? If it is not autonomous, it is not a choice but a compulsion. QED

Christ chose not to sin and it has nothing to do with autonomy , God CANNOT sin.

 

[Van]

Hi New Dawn, now my posts are called mindless repetitions, but the fact is all the Calvinists repeatedly disparage me, using the logical fallacy of a personal attack such as "mindless."

And note, the supposed rebuttal did not actually address the fact that for us to make choices, they have to be autonomous or they are not choices.

Final point, no one said nor suggested that our choice causes us to be saved or not, but we do choose to trust in Christ or not, and that faith is what God credits as righteousness or not. So God has mercy on whoever He wills, and according to John 3:16, He wills to have mercy upon those who believe in Jesus.

 

[oworm]

Anyone can google the pages.

Well not this "anyone" LOL. I have googled and searched all over.I even went to Dr Williams personal website, his faculty page at DTS and bible.org and I simply cannot find those pages. If I could I would post the link and infact I did post links to the websites I searched.

If Oworm claims he cannot, he is simply posting yet another falsehood. The TULIP is broken, and proclaiming personal incredulity does not mend it.

Sorry folks but I think it is apparent that I have not posted a falsehood. I have been very open about where I have searched and Van has been very evasive by not posting the direct link to the page so that we can verify his position.

Van will you please post the link so that I can look at the material you are referencing. PLEASE?

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi New Dawn, now my posts are called mindless repetitions, but the fact is all the Calvinists repeatedly disparage me, using the logical fallacy of a personal attack such as "mindless."

And note, the supposed rebuttal did not actually address the fact that for us to make choices, they have to be autonomous or they are not choices.

Final point, no one said nor suggested that our choice causes us to be saved or not, but we do choose to trust in Christ or not, and that faith is what God credits as righteousness or not. So God has mercy on whoever He wills, and according to John 3:16, He wills to have mercy upon those who believe in Jesus.

still making the huge mistake of pushing faith as what God credits to us as righteousness , as though God looked down from heaven was dissatisfied with men's imperfection at keeping the Law and instead , is rewarding men for their IMPERFECT faith by calling their faith righteousness ... this is POPPYCOCK !!!!!


If our faith is the object of our Righteousness then Christ died in vain !


It's NOT your faith or anyone else's that God reckons as Righteous --- Go back and look at how and why Abraham was justified , it was Christ the object of faith that is counted to us as righteousness .

Any attempt at self-righteousness is OUTLAWED in the New Testament.

 

[MamaZ]

Throughout all scripture we see that is it God who does the choosing

 

[Van]

The TULIP is broken and all the name calling and disparagement heaped upon me such as calling me a sham or calling my posts mindless does not alter that fact.

The "T" refers to total spiritual inability and has been shown to be broken by Matthew 13:20-22 where unregenerate folks receive the gospel with joy.

The "U" refers to unconditional election and has been shown to be broken by James 2:5 where God chooses folks for salvation based on their characteristics.

The "L" refers to limited atonement as defined by Calvinism, and has been shown to be broken by 1 John 2:2 where Christ is the propitiation for the whole world.

The "I" refers to irresistible grace, and has been shown to be broken by Matthew 23:13 where folks entering heaven, and therefore according to Calvinist doctrine under the influence of irresistible grace, were shut off from entering by false teachers.

The concept of the gift of faith has been shown to be not supported by Ephesians 2:8.

 

[oworm]

The concept of the gift of faith has been shown to be not supported by Ephesians 2:8.

Where has this been shown?

 

[Van]

Yesterday, Oworm, I could bring up both pages 334 and 335, but today, the web page has changed and now page 335 is not part of the link. However, when I made the statement, both pages were accessible and I read them on the web. However today, I only make the statement that page 334 is accessible on the web. Note that the Author, the book title and page numbers have been provided and copies of the book are available, even perhaps in your Pastor's study.