The Tulip is broken

[frumanchu]

One of the sad tactics of the Calvinist defenders is deny of the very word of God, when God's word teaches something that conflicts with their man-made doctrine. Hence, when Jesus says the Pharisees do not allow those who are entering to go in, it does not mean the false doctrines of the Pharisees led folks astray. LOL The TULIP is broken and personal incredulity will not mend it.

One of the all too frequent tactics of the Anti-Calvinist is to justify his venomous attacks on Calvinism by promoting BLATANT LIES about what Calvinists do and do not believe. The Anti-Calvinist would have you believe that Calvinists do not believe false doctrines can lead folks astray, yet Calvinists have repeatedly said just the opposite and their own historical confessions make it clear that it is so. To persist in such false claims in the face of repeated correction and irrefutable proof can only be seen as one thing: BLATANT LIES.

Notice that the Anti-Calvinist STILL cannot address the simple logical arguments by which his flawed attacks were deconstructed. He is too busy justifying his attacks with BLATANT LIES to own up to the fact that his arguments have been defeated and lie in pieces at his feet. Such is the folly of the Anti-Calvinist who will attack Calvinism at all costs. His words are empty and without truth. All he can do is mock and repeat, mock and repeat, mock and repeat....

mene mene tekel upharsin

 

[Van]

Personal incredulity is once again offered up as a defense of the broken tulip. And then the usual claim that I have not addressed this or that, but the truth is I have. They offer nothing.

Calvinists claim the belief of the unregenerate is limited to intellectual assent.

Biblical truth, Matthew 23:13, unregenerate folks believed sufficiently to be entering heaven. So before they were led astray, their belief was efficacious.

Next claim, that I make out the Word of God to be a lie. LOL The demons believe and are not saved, so the biblical truth is if God accepts your belief, you will be saved. Romans 4:5.

Here is a typical misrepresentation of my position, "Van believes no one suffers from spiritual inability." Of course my actual position is the first of the four types of soils described in Matthew 13:1-23 describe folks who suffer from total spiritual inability. It is just that all folks do not according to the bible.

The Tulip is broken.

 

[Van]

Here are the four points of the TULIP, in John MacArthur's words, that I believe are unbiblical.

“Total depravity” means you can’t do anything to save yourself. You can’t even make a right choice. You can’t awaken your spiritual deadness. You can’t give life where there is death. You can’t come to a right conclusion on your own. Total depravity means that everyone, is by virtue of their own will and their own power and their own choices, incapable of redemption. That’s total depravity.”

This statement is almost biblical, only the “bolded” sentences are unbiblical. God sets before us the choice between life and death, and therefore to say we are unable to choose life contradicts scripture. To avoid the obvious contradiction, Calvinists say when you choose the only choice available, death, you are actually making a “choice.” But that redefines “choice” to mean “non-choice.” Jesus teaches in Matthew 13:20-22 that some men who are dead in their trespasses and sins received the gospel with joy, certainly the right choice. Therefore the "T" in the Tulip is unbiblical if it is asserted to apply to all men.

“In the case of “Unconditional election”, you have the view in the Scripture that the people who are saved are saved because they were chosen by God apart from any merit of their own, apart from any condition.”

This statement is completely unbiblical, James 2:5 tells us God chooses people based on their condition, those rich in faith, those that love God, and those who do not treasure the things of this world. Paul teaches a similar truth in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. And again, Paul teaches that God chooses people in his day, just as God chose people who were faithful in Romans 11:3-6. John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall not perish.

“Limited atonement”, in the typical reformed view, means that the atonement, in its actual work, the actual efficacy of the atonement, was only for the elect.”

Again, this statement is completely unbiblical, 1 John 2:2 tells us that Christ became the propitiation (means of salvation) not only for us (members of the Church) but also for the whole world. Paul tells us He laid down His life as a ransom for all. Therefore the finished work of the cross provides (1) the means of salvation available to all men, and (2) provides salvation for anyone spiritually placed in Christ.

“Irresistible grace”, which is the idea that when the spirit of God works on the heart of a sinner, the sinner can’t resist.”

And finally, this too, is almost biblical. But it is carefully crafted to blend the idea that God's will, what ever it is, cannot be resisted, with the false idea that God's will is to compel people with Irresistible Grace to trust in Christ. However, in Matthew 23:13 men who are entering, or trying to enter the Kingdom of Yahweh, and therefore could not be turned aside because of irresistible grace if the premise were true, are turned aside and do not enter. Therefore it is God's will to allow men to accept or reject the gospel and not compel them as Calvinism wrongly asserts.

 

[oworm]

Biblical truth, Matthew 23:13, unregenerate folks believed sufficiently to be entering heaven. So before they were led astray, their belief was efficacious.

Note the position statement above that posits as biblical truth the assertion that the unregenerate can enter the kingdom of heaven.

The first part of the statement above seeks--hopefully unwittingly by it's author-- to empty the cross of its power and place it within the hands of an unregenerate sinner to believe sufficiently to enter the kingdom of heaven. The statement dispenses with the need for the atoning death of our Lord!

Our Lord himself refutes such a position in his own words:

unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God...John 3:3

Note also the position that the belief of an unregenerate sinner is actually efficacious

Is mere belief efficacious and sufficient for entry to the kingdom of heaven?
This puts the work of salvation completely and totally in the hands of the unregenerate sinner.

The word Efficacious means; that which is effective to bring about an action or state of being.

There is no place in scripture that teaches that belief is efficacious to salvation. Such a statement posits that belief itself is the effective means of entry to the kingdom. The only effective means is the atoning death and victorious resurrection of our Lord. Belief is necessary yes, but it is never Efficacious. It is not belief in regeneration that brings about regeneration. Belief itself is not effective in bringing about the life of God in the soul of man.

The only efficacious action that brings about entry into the kingdom is the atoning death of our Lord.

My hope and prayer is that the poster quoted above will repent of such a position which is blatantly opposed to the gospel of free grace and empties the cross of it's power.

 

[JDS]

Note the position statement above that posits as biblical truth the assertion that the unregenerate can enter the kingdom of heaven.

The first part of the statement above seeks--hopefully unwittingly by it's author-- to empty the cross of its power and place it within the hands of an unregenerate sinner to believe sufficiently to enter the kingdom of heaven. The statement dispenses with the need for the atoning death of our Lord!

Our Lord himself refutes such a position in his own words:

Actually, he doesn't!

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus said those words to these men before he died on the cross. Therefore, if he really meant that these men would die in their sins if they did not believe that he was "I am" they would die in their sins, then you are wrong and it is indeed faith in the words of God that brings salvation to lost sinners.

Take a look at these other words Jesus spoke to them:

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Do you think those who believed on him in verse 29 were saved?

 

[oworm]

Belief is never the means of salvation. It is the conduit through which salvation comes to the sinner. It is the efficacious work of Christ alone that brings salvation.It comes through faith but not because of faith. It comes through belief but not because of belief. As far as I am concerned there is nothing to discuss or debate here. You MUST be born again

 

[drstevej]

Personal incredulity is once again offered up as a defense of the broken tulip. And then the usual claim that I have not addressed this or that, but the truth is I have. They offer nothing.

Calvinists claim the belief of the unregenerate is limited to intellectual assent.

Biblical truth, Matthew 23:13, unregenerate folks believed sufficiently to be entering heaven. So before they were led astray, their belief was efficacious.

Next claim, that I make out the Word of God to be a lie. LOL The demons believe and are not saved, so the biblical truth is if God accepts your belief, you will be saved. Romans 4:5.

Here is a typical misrepresentation of my position, "Van believes no one suffers from spiritual inability." Of course my actual position is the first of the four types of soils described in Matthew 13:1-23 describe folks who suffer from total spiritual inability. It is just that all folks do not according to the bible.

The Tulip is broken.

IF God accepts your belief?

Redemption based on ME.

Hogwash, Pelagian MUCK.

 

[JDS]

Belief is never the means of salvation. It is the conduit through which salvation comes to the sinner. It is the efficacious work of Christ alone that brings salvation.It comes through faith but not because of faith. It comes through belief but not because of belief. As far as I am concerned there is nothing to discuss or debate here. You MUST be born again

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

The only condition of anyone for salvation, before or after the cross, is stated in the above verse. This happened to have been said before the cross. Here is the same thing said after the cross. Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is required for men to believe the words of God and he has said that he would impute the faith for righteousness. It is God's department to provide the sacrifice for sin and he did that by sending his own son to make it. We can believe his words though, yea, we must believe him.

Could these men in Romans 10 have believed the same thing that Jesus Christ was asking the men in John 8 to believe? Well, you make the call. He is saying in Romans 10 that they must believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If one reads Romans 4, the great chapter on justification by faith, he will find that the point of that chapter is to show that God imputes faith for righteousness and he gives examples from before the law, Abraham, a man under the law, David, and then those who believe since the law, the church.

23 Now it was not written for his (Abraham's) sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God, who gave the words) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Therefore, it is the perogative of God to justify whom he will and on the basis of his own choosing and it is the grace of God to provide salvation from sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ at a single point in history. It is the duty of man to believe what God says!

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
It is stated plainly that we receive him by believing and thus receive life because he is life. One must receive Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life. Eternal life comes because we believe. Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


Let no man say that it is impossible for men to believe the written record of God because they are commanded to believe it all through the Scriptures and he that will believe it will have eternal life and he that will not believe it will not see life but will die in his sins.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

The point is: Faith is the principle though which God justifies man all through history and his revelation of himself is progressive and dispensational. Men today cannot be justified by believing the same thing Abraham believed but all men who believe what God tells them are justified, and this without exception.

This truth exposes every point of the tulip as error.

 

[beloved57]

It is required for men to believe the words of God

so then, the spiritually dead are required to make themselves alive spiritually in order to believe ?

No one can believe the words of God without spiritual life..

 

[oworm]

Faith is the principle though which God justifies man all through history and his revelation of himself is progressive and dispensational.

The "principle through which God justifies" is by his grace (Romans 3:24) see emphasis in bold below.

Justification is by grace through faith. No one is justified because of faith. It is a gift of grace,and not the assent of faith in the individual. Justification is done to you, not by you!

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

Romans 3: 21-24
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to itthe righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

We are at odds in our hermenuetic. Gods revelation of himself is progressive and covenantal. The dispensational hermeuetic is reached by an eisegetical interpretation of Gods revelation in scripture. The progressive historical witness is shown plainly from scripture to be covenantal in nature.

Time constraints in my study do not allow me to engage in such a lengthy discussion. The plain reading of the entirety of Scripture without pre concieved theological notions will always bear out the accuracy of its own witness.

 

[Van]

You can call Romans 4:5 Hogwash if you want, but that does not alter God's word which teaches that the TULIP is broken.

Personal incredulity is once again offered up as a defense of the broken tulip. And then the usual claim that I have not addressed this or that, but the truth is I have. They offer nothing.

Calvinists claim the belief of the unregenerate is limited to intellectual assent.

Biblical truth, Matthew 23:13, unregenerate folks believed sufficiently to be entering heaven. So before they were led astray, their belief was efficacious.

Next claim, that I make out the Word of God to be a lie. LOL The demons believe and are not saved, so the biblical truth is if God accepts your belief, you will be saved. Romans 4:5.

Here is a typical misrepresentation of my position, "Van believes no one suffers from spiritual inability." Of course my actual position is the first of the four types of soils described in Matthew 13:1-23 describe folks who suffer from total spiritual inability. It is just that all folks do not according to the bible.

The Tulip is broken.

 

[oworm]

Biblical truth, Matthew 23:13, unregenerate folks believed sufficiently to be entering heaven. So before they were led astray, their belief was efficacious.

Note the position statement above that posits as biblical truth the assertion that the unregenerate can enter the kingdom of heaven.

The first part of the statement above seeks--hopefully unwittingly by it's author-- to empty the cross of its power and place it within the hands of an unregenerate sinner to believe sufficiently to enter the kingdom of heaven. The statement dispenses with the need for the atoning death of our Lord!

Our Lord himself refutes such a position in his own words:

unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God...John 3:3

Note also the position that the belief of an unregenerate sinner is actually efficacious

Is mere belief efficacious and sufficient for entry to the kingdom of heaven?
This puts the work of salvation completely and totally in the hands of the unregenerate sinner.

The word Efficacious means; that which is effective to bring about an action or state of being.

There is no place in scripture that teaches that belief is efficacious to salvation. Such a statement posits that belief itself is the effective means of entry to the kingdom. The only effective means is the atoning death and victorious resurrection of our Lord. Belief is necessary yes, but it is never Efficacious. It is not belief in regeneration that brings about regeneration. Belief itself is not effective in bringing about the life of God in the soul of man.

The only efficacious action that brings about entry into the kingdom is the atoning death of our Lord.

My hope and prayer is that the poster quoted above will repent of such a position which is blatantly opposed to the gospel of free grace and empties the cross of it's power.
​

 

[JDS]

The "principle through which God justifies" is by his grace (Romans 3:24) see emphasis in bold below.

Justification is by grace through faith. No one is justified because of faith. It is a gift of grace,and not the assent of faith in the individual. Justification is done to you, not by you!

I am sorry but the following words from our God refutes your whole necessary eisegesis to reach the conclusion you must reach to make the bible fit your preferred system and I really do not need to say anything.

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We are at odds in our hermenuetic. Gods revelation of himself is progressive and covenantal. The dispensational hermeuetic is reached by an eisegetical interpretation of Gods revelation in scripture. The progressive historical witness is shown plainly from scripture to be covenantal in nature.

The dispensational hermeneutic is the only logical hermeneutic. The covenantal system is not supported by scripture, and why would it be. It is fabricated by those whose theological persuasion demands that the prophetical portions of scripture in the main be reduced to allegory.

The plain reading of the entirety of Scripture without pre concieved theological notions will always bear out the accuracy of its own witness.

I think I can agree with that!

 

[oworm]

I am sorry but the following words from our God refutes your whole necessary eisegesis to reach the conclusion you must reach to make the bible fit your preferred system and I really do not need to say anything.

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.



The dispensational hermeneutic is the only logical hermeneutic. The covenantal system is not supported by scripture, and why would it be. It is fabricated by those whose theological persuasion demands that the prophetical portions of scripture in the main be reduced to allegory.




I think I can agree with that!

I can see then that dialogue will be a pointless waste of time and will result in circular arguing and scripture sparring which will serve no purpose other than to divert this thread off topic. Which is just as well really since I have so much more pressing engagements in which to apply myself which will be to the eternal benefit of my own and hopefully others souls.

I bid you every blessing.

 

[frumanchu]

Mock and repeat, mock and repeat, mock and repeat....

 

[JDS]

I can see then that dialogue will be a pointless waste of time and will result in circular arguing and scripture sparring which will serve no purpose other than to divert this thread off topic.

The topic of this thread is TULIP. Those who adhere to this system boasttfully proclaim that they take a position of sola scriptura (scripture alone). The tulip is a soterilogical system and must be examined by the word of God to determine if it is true. There is no other way to make that determination except to examine it in light of scripture and for one to suggest that it is pointless and a waste of time exposes an attitude that is less than sincere.

The following example does not demonstrate circular reasoning, it is an example of the scriptures themselves refuting a foundational tenet of calvinism, free grace, in a passage whose purpose is to give us an understanding of how and on what basis God justifies a condemned sinner and counts him righteous.

OWORM said
The "principle through which God justifies" is by his grace (Romans 3:24) see emphasis in bold below.

No one is justified because of faith. It is a gift of grace,and not the assent of faith in the individual. Justification is done to you, not by you! End quote.

Is this what the passage teaches? These verses as well as the whole passage refutes this and anyone who can read without an agenda must conclude that it does.

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


If it (righteousness) were not by faith, then it could not be by grace, it would be by the works of the individual who is justified. Faith is clearly set forth in the passage as the proper response of the hearer of the words of God and grace is the response of God as he imputes that faith for righteousness. There is no place in scripture where faith is said to be the gift of God in the context of salvation. Calvinism, with it's two gifts of the Spirit, one to regenerate (quicken) so faith can be given and later, to save the believer so eternal life can be given, is mandatory to validate the T in TULIP.

But thanks for the conversation.

 

[drstevej]

There is no place in scripture where faith is said to be the gift of God in the context of salvation.

Oh really?

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

If FAITH is not a gift, salvation is not grace... cause I BELIEVED and that made the difference.

If faith is a gift, then unquestionably salvation is a gift, cause HE did it and not me in any way.

 

[JDS]

Oh really?



If FAITH is not a gift, salvation is not grace... cause I BELIEVED and that made the difference.

If faith is a gift, then unquestionably salvation is a gift, cause HE did it and not me in any way.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together (Together takes more than one and in this case it is Jews and gentiles) with Christ, (by grace ye (gentiles) are saved)


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Grace is an attribute of God and flows from him to those who believe and believing is not a work, however, it is an action verb everytime it is found in scripture.

Acts 16:30 - Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You must believe! Then you will be saved?

What is salvation? It is the gift of God!

Ac 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

So then, the gift of God is the Holy Ghost and possession of the Holy Ghost is salvation and the grace of God.

Ac 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

 

[drstevej]

(staff removed quote)

No unkindness taken. But do ya really believe that all Calvinists are unsaved?

I accord more sovereignty and glory to God than your theology does.
I accept no credit for myself and ascribe to Him rightfully the title of Savior. He saved me, He did not just make me savable.

BTW, do you plan to have free will in Heaven? Can you reject Him there and walk out? If love requires free will seems like Heaven needs an exit.

And just for fun I'll share a Clapton parody for you to hum while you consider the question:

Free Will in Heaven​

(Adapted from and with apologies to Eric Clapton -- Tears in Heaven)



Beyond the door,
There's peace I'm sure.
And I know there's got to be
Free will in heaven.

Would you throw a fit,
If He controlled you in heaven?
Would it be the same,
If He bound your will in heaven?

You must be strong,
And carry on.
'Cause you know there's no free will
Here in heaven

 

[oworm]

(staff edit to remove content of quote

So according to you every reformer who holds to a calvinistic view from Calvin himself forward is now in hell?
Jonathan Edwards is in hell.
All the Reformers from the great awakening are in hell.
All the Puritans are in hell including John Bunyan and John Owen.
George Whitfield is in hell.
This list will eventually include Sinclair Ferguson. John Piper. CJ Mahaney. Ligon Duncan. Mark Dever. Alistair Begg and a whole host of other Reformed Calvinists.

Infact your implication is that the Reformation was instigated by Satan

Yeah Right.