The Tulip is broken

[cygnusx1]

Yep! I agree. If you don't believe as does Van, you not going to heaven. Calvinism is a "false religion" much like what the Pharisees said about the religion being built around that man called Jesus. It was a false religion also. Just like the Pharisees. They close up the door to heaven, they can't get in themselves, but yet they don't allow anyone else to enter either.

Don't ya just love the Gospel of Matthew according to Van?

You know, it is very funny that Van points out three verses from this text that "fit" his view, all the while completely ignoring two critical verses just prior to this.

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." -Mt. 13:10-11 (KJV)

The commentary at biblegateway.com says:



Here in Mt. 13, Jesus is speaking in generalities, not specifics.

Specifically, Jesus said:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -Jn. 16:13 (KJV)

God told Jeremiah:

"To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it." -Jer. 6:10 (KJV)

This same principle is repeated in Acts.

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." -Acts 7:51 (KJV)

I would like to know, how a person can receive the word in their ears, let alone in the heart, if the ears and heart are not uncircumcised first.

Hum...

Van also said:



But what Van leaves out of his explaination is these facts also.

What does verses 21-22 teach:

"Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."

Why did these individuals become unfruitful and become offended and fall away?

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." -Rom. 8:14 (KJV)

They were not Spirit led people. These are individuals, like the ones Van espouses, come to God of their own "free will." They chose to come God. They chose of their own free will to believe. They weren't led by the Spirit. And if you are not led by the Spirit, your no better than the man who built his house upon the sand. (cf. Mt. 7:26)

You may come to God of your own "free will," and for a season, it may be joyous, but because out of your own "free will" you decided to chose to believe, you will ultimately fail.

Why? Because Jesus specifically said:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:" -Jn. 6:44 (KJV)

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." -Jn. 12:32 (KJV)

Anytime you cut the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit out of the equation, and chose of your own "free will" to believe, then your work, will fail. Its doomed from the start. And why is that? Because its built on own your work and not the work of the Spirit.

Those individuals spoken of in Mt. 13:20-22, only show and prove that they were not "born-again", "gennhqh" from above. They were not drawn by the Spirit. They had not had their ears and hearts uncircumsised. It was based on their own doings, therfore, they become offended, and they get choked out and become unfruitful.

The Apostle Paul also taught:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith," -Gal. 5:22 (KJV)

Strange that Jesus forgot to mention the fruits of the Spirit in these people (Mt. 13:20-22).

Hum...

And Mt. 13:20-22 only shows that it was a false belief to begin with.

If a set of plans calls for a wall 30' long, and you cut the first piece of wood 29' 11" long, then the wall is going to be off from the start. The "cornerstone" is set wrongly, therfore, it will throw the rest of the building out of square.

The same principle here.

A kid given a new toy. It wonderful, its new, its fun, for a while. Then they get bored with it, it sits and is left neglected.

Jesus specifically said that you must be born again (gennhqh) first. And there is absolutely no evidence that they had been given ears to hear. A clean heart. A right spirit. Nor is there any evidence of ever being born again.

Plain and simple.

Another Vanism. Everything is built on their choice, their own free will.

That is why they failed.

Van is like Luke Skywalker: I don't believe it!

Yoda: That is why you fail.

God Bless

Till all are one.

excellent post bro !!!

In truth I have seen some Anti-Calvinists do some terrible things based upon their dogma of Free-will ....... the concept of COVENANT meant so little to them that they could cheat on and even DIVORCE their own wives .... even looking for scriptures to help their seared consciences , worse still I have seen some of them Apostacize , reject the Faith once delivered because in their heart of hearts they believed in 'self determinism' and had NO FEAR of God.


" as a man thinketh so is he. " Proverbs 23:7

 

[drstevej]

 

[MamaZ]

we can see even in the OT that it is God who does the choosing and the changing of ones heart. It is not people by their own free will that do this.. It is indeed God..

Jer 24:7 'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.


Eze 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Eze 36:28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

 

[Van]

The TULIP is broken and no matter how many copy and paste posts are posted, it does not alter the truth. First they say everyone suffers from Total Spiritual Inability, then folks can believe, but that does not demonstrate spiritual ability. LOL

My position is people can believe and be saved if God credits their faith as righteousness. Therefore a person who believes and is water baptized may or may not be saved, it does not depend on the man that wills, but upon God - Did God credit the person's faith as righteousness?

John 1:12-13 provides an example of a person "receiving Christ."

To receive the gospel means a person understood and accepted it.

The TULIP is broken, and I did not break it. It was broken on the anvil of truth by God's word. Matthew 13:20-22, James 2:5, 1 John 2:2, and Matthew 23:13.

 

[MamaZ]

The tulip has not been broken tee hee.. But those whom think they have anything to do with their salvation are broken. For salvation is of God not of mens choice..

 

[beloved57]

John 1:12-13 provides an example of a person "receiving Christ."

Yes, men and women who were previously born of God..as vs 13 explicitly says:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[frumanchu]

The TULIP is broken and no matter how many copy and paste posts are posted, it does not alter the truth. First they say everyone suffers from Total Spiritual Inability, then folks can believe, but that does not demonstrate spiritual ability. LOL

This from the king of copy-and-paste posts, who mocks and repeats in the face of irrefutable evidence that his position is dead wrong.

The belief that the unregenerate has is nothing more than intellectual assent. It is not the trusting faith in Christ that saves.

My position is people can believe and be saved if God credits their faith as righteousness. Therefore a person who believes and is water baptized may or may not be saved...

Unbelievable! In trying to further justify his attack on Calvinism, the Anti-Calvinist now makes the Word of God a lie! Acts 16:31 plainly says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved...yet the Anti-Calvinist would have it say, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you MIGHT be saved."

Here we have the fruit of such behavior...the forsaking of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the sake of further propping up illogical attacks on Calvinism. Can there be any doubt as to the origin of this teaching? Can there be any further proof needed as to the spirit behind these attacks?!?

The Anti-Calvinist has been caught in his lies. His attacks have been exposed for what they are. Simple, straightforward logic was used to dissect his arguments, and he has been unable to refute them. So far will he go in his zeal to attack Calvinism at all costs that he will actually undermine the very groundwork of salvation by faith, reducing it to a "maybe" rather than a solid rock of salvation.

Do not be deceived by the teachings of the Anti-Calvinist. His words have been shown to be full of untruth; hostile to the very truths of God's Word.

mene mene tekel upharsin

 

[cygnusx1]

The TULIP is broken and no matter how many copy and paste posts are posted, it does not alter the truth. First they say everyone suffers from Total Spiritual Inability, then folks can believe, but that does not demonstrate spiritual ability. LOL

So van believes that no-one suffers from Spiritual inability .

This is because (according to van) some folks who once "believed the Gospel" later fell away , and the fact that they once "believed" means that they possessed some Spiritual ability ....... you can't have your cake and eat it at the same time , either men are Spiritually dead (Eph 2) and need regeneration (the NEW BIRTH) or they are fine and need no resurrection from spiritual death. Their 'salvation' is not radical at all.


I fail to see any reason for a New Birth , if men are already ABLE to do what God commands men Spiritually to do.

Shall I buy another bread maker when I already have one that is sufficient ? Of course not.

If men are possessed with Spiritual ability then regeneration , our rising up from the grave with Christ into NEWNESS of Life is a meaningless grandiloquence .

a man may "believe" without the Spirit ; TRUE , but what type of faith is that ?

James speaks of a "faith" which cannot save , a temporary intellectual faith , NOT saving faith.


The Devil believes and trembles , some sinners believe and remain lost . There is no more evidence that a man who simply "believes" the Gospel is Spiritually alive (In Christ) , than that Satan is Spiritually alive (in Christ) .

 

[drstevej]

My position is people can believe and be saved if God credits their faith as righteousness. Therefore a person who believes and is water baptized may or may not be saved, it does not depend on the man that wills, but upon God - Did God credit the person's faith as righteousness?

Wanna rethink this theo-gibberish?

 

[nobdysfool]

How can a person dead in sins, in bondage to sin, and an enemy of God have faith that would be pleasing to Him? Theo-gibberish, indeed!

 

[drstevej]

 

[nobdysfool]

LOL! By gum, that there is just about the clearest statement of the Anti-Calvinist position I have ever heard!

 

[Van]

Calvinist claim, the belief of the unregenerate is limited to intellectual assent.

Biblical truth, Matthew 23:13, unregenerate folks believed sufficiently to be entering heaven. So before they were led astray, their belief was efficacious.

Next claim, that I make out the Word of God to be a lie. LOL The demons believe and are not saved, so the biblical truth is if God accepts your belief, you will be saved. Romans 4:5.

And the rest of the defense is simply to disparage me personally. LOL

Here is a typical misrepresentation of my position, "Van believes no one suffers from spiritual inability." Of course my actual position is the first of the four types of soils described in Matthew 13:1-23 describe folks who suffer from total spiritual inability. It is just that all folks do not according to the bible.

The Tulip is broken.

 

[beloved57]

Biblical truth, Matthew 23:13, unregenerate folks believed sufficiently to be entering heaven

matt 23:

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

so now other people can prevent other people from going to heaven..The jews of jesus day would ostracize and persecute jews who showed devotion or interest to christ..thats all is being said here..

 

[Van]

One of the sad tactics of the Calvinist defenders is deny of the very word of God, when God's word teaches something that conflicts with their man-made doctrine. Hence, when Jesus says the Pharisees do not allow those who are entering to go in, it does not mean the false doctrines of the Pharisees led folks astray. LOL The TULIP is broken and personal incredulity will not mend it.

 

[drstevej]

One of the sad tactics of the Calvinist defenders is deny of the very word of God, when God's word teaches something that conflicts with man-made doctrine. Hence, when Jesus say the Pharisees do not allow those who are entering to go in, it does not mean there false doctrines led folks astray. LOL The TULIP is broken and personal incredulity will not mend it.

A man without a horse is like a foot.

Think about it.

 

[Van]

You can think about it, as you post off topic graffiti to hide the truth. The TULIP is broken, four of its five doctrines have been shown to be unbiblical.

 

[drstevej]

You can think about it, as you post off topic graffiti to hide the truth. The TULIP is broken, four of its five doctrines have been shown to be unbiblical.

You miss my point. My statement is as sensible as your argumentation.

 

[cygnusx1]

Calvinist claim, the belief of the unregenerate is limited to intellectual assent.

Biblical truth, Matthew 23:13, unregenerate folks believed sufficiently to be entering heaven. So before they were led astray, their belief was efficacious.

Next claim, that I make out the Word of God to be a lie. LOL The demons believe and are not saved, so the biblical truth is if God accepts your belief, you will be saved. Romans 4:5.

And the rest of the defense is simply to disparage me personally. LOL

Here is a typical misrepresentation of my position, "Van believes no one suffers from spiritual inability." Of course my actual position is the first of the four types of soils described in Matthew 13:1-23 describe folks who suffer from total spiritual inability. It is just that all folks do not according to the bible.

The Tulip is broken.

so van thinks some who were entering heaven later fell away (aided by the Pharisees) ........ mmmmmmm , the TULIP isn't broken BUT van's OSAS dogma is limping around very badly hurt now.


It is argued by Van that these guys who were entering heaven were genuine believers , that their faith was unlike the faith of devils , that it was saving faith , BUT , a faith that is saving but doesn't SAVE is an oxymoron .

Should it be argued that their faith wasn't saving faith , then in what real sense can Van claim it was efficacious ? The simple fact that they were entering heaven is neither here nor there , Satan entered heaven AFTER he had fallen , but no-one posits efficacious faith or grace was at work.

so , some , we are now informed suffer from Spiritual inability whilst others we are informed do not suffer from this inability ... just one question , is this genetic ????

what possible explanation can be given that Peleguis and Augustine were both correct and both wrong ??

Pelagius [SIZE=+1](c. a. 354-418)[/SIZE]

 

[beloved57]

You can think about it, as you post off topic graffiti to hide the truth. The TULIP is broken, four of its five doctrines have been shown to be unbiblical.

all five points of tulip = Gospel of Jesus christ..you reject tulip, you reject Jesus christ and his word..