The Tulip is broken

JDS said:

What difference does it make what the Greek text says? We speak English round here and we have a KJ Bible which is an absolutely accurate translation of the living word of God so that we do not have to guess what God says.

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1. The ordinary Bible read in the Church, commonly called the Bishops' Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the original will permit.
2. The names of the prophets and the holy writers, with the other names in the text, to be retained, as near as may be, accordingly as they are vulgarly used.
3. The old ecclesiastical words to be kept, as the word church, not to be translated congregation.
4. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which hath been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place and the analogies of faith.
5. The division of chapters to be altered either not at all, or as little as may be, if necessity so require.
6. No marginal notes at all to be affixed, but only for the explanation of the Hebrew or Greek words, which cannot, without some circumlocution, so briefly and fitly be expressed, in the text.
7. Such quotations of places to be marginally set down as shall serve for the fit reference of one Scripture to another.
8. Every particular man of each company to take the same chapter or chapters; and, having translated or amended them severally by himself where he thinks good, all to meet together to confirm what they have done, and agree for their part what shall stand.
9. As any one company hath dispatched any one book in this manner, they shall send it to the rest, to be considered of seriously and judiciously; for his Majesty is very careful on this point.
10. If any company, upon the review of the book so sent, shall doubt or differ upon any places, to send them word thereof, to note the places, and therewithal to send their reasons; to which if they consent not, the difference to be compounded at the general meeting, which is to be of the chief persons of each company, at the end of the work.
11. When any place of special obscurity is doubted of, letters to be directed by authority to send to any learned man in the land for his judgment of such a place.
12. Letters to be sent from every bishop to the rest of his clergy, admonishing them of this translation in hand, and to move and charge as many as, being skillful in the tongues, have taken pains in that kind, to send their particular observations to the company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford, according as it was directed before in the king's letter to the archbishop.
13. The directors in each company to be the Deans of Westminster and Chester, for Westminster, and the king's professors in Hebrew and Greek in the two universities.
14. These translations to be used, when they agree better with the text than the Bishops' Bible: Tyndale's, Coverdale's, Matthew's [Rogers'], Whitchurch's [Cranmer's], Geneva."
15. By a later rule, "three or four of the most ancient and grave divines, in either of the universities, not employed in translating, to be assigned to be overseers of the translation, for the better observation of the fourth rule."

frumanchu said:

Translation is not an exact science, and no translation is perfect.

For example, in the KJV the translation of the beginning of 1 Tim 6:10 is "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." Are we to believe that love of money is the root of incest? Or idolatry? No. The translation here does not accurately convey what the original Greek does. There are plenty of other examples.

So the original Greek does make a difference. You can't be dismissive of it just because it complicates your argument.

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JDS said:

What is it about Ephesians 2 that you need for the Greek to make plainer?

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Rep Daddy said:

So God gave English speaking folks a absolutely accurate translation and left every other language group to guess? I see.

The translators of the KJV did not consider themselves absolutely accurate nor did they consider a translation superior to the original (Greek & Hebrew).

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JDS said:

we get all of our false doctrine from Egypt because Egypt is a type of the world. Even the Alexandrian Texts that underlie all the corrupt bible versions comes from there. So, I guess one could say that Calvinism had it's roots in Egypt

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JDS said:

No, I observe that he wrote the NT in Greek but the writers were Hebrews. They could speak and write in Hebrew but they did not because the gospel message was not just to the Hebrews but to the world and the world spoke Greek and the gospel was going west. I know this from reading the book of Acts and from my study of church history. When the gospel got as far west as it could get, the westerners spoke English and English was to become the language of the world. Therefore God translated it into the worlds language and the missionaries have been largely from the English speaking nations. If you know some great missionary and evangelistic movements from among the Semetic or Hametic peoples of the earth, other than the apostles themselves, please inform me about them.


We do have the record of Origen, the Egyptian, who greatly influenced Augustine but we get all of our false doctrine from Egypt because Egypt is a type of the world. Even the Alexandrian Texts that underlie all the corrupt bible versions comes from there. So, I guess one could say that Calvinism had it's roots in Egypt and it seems to me the reformed are the ones who are the most zealous for the new bible versions. The correct texts came from Antioch, the headquarters for the missionary activities of the great apostle Paul to the gentiles. Our KJV was translated from these texts. It can be trusted!

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Van said:

Ephesians 2:8 does not say faith is a gift of God. Greek grammar precludes that interpretation, yet it is posted again and again, as if truth does not matter. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God through our faith in Christ.

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oworm said:

JDS I will allow you some time to edit your post before I report it as you are in clear violation of forum rules yet again!

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JDS said:

No, I observe that he wrote the NT in Greek but the writers were Hebrews. They could speak and write in Hebrew but they did not because the gospel message was not just to the Hebrews but to the world and the world spoke Greek and the gospel was going west. I know this from reading the book of Acts and from my study of church history. When the gospel got as far west as it could get, the westerners spoke English and English was to become the language of the world. Therefore God translated it into the worlds language and the missionaries have been largely from the English speaking nations. If you know some great missionary and evangelistic movements from among the Semetic or Hametic peoples of the earth, other than the apostles themselves, please inform me about them.

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JDS said:

We do have the record of Origen, the Egyptian, who greatly influenced Augustine but we get all of our false doctrine from Egypt because Egypt is a type of the world. Even the Alexandrian Texts that underlie all the corrupt bible versions comes from there. So, I guess one could say that Calvinism had it's roots in Egypt and it seems to me the reformed are the ones who are the most zealous for the new bible versions. The correct texts came from Antioch, the headquarters for the missionary activities of the great apostle Paul to the gentiles. Our KJV was translated from these texts. It can be trusted!

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Rep Daddy said:

You might want to broaden your historical studies beyond Jack Chick tracts.

You confuse God with the translation committee, and as I have demonstrated the translation committee were under no delusions that they were infallible.

BTW, the father of the Modern Missions Movement, William Carey, was a Calvinist.

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nobdysfool said:

Sounds like something Peter Ruckman would say. Are you a Ruckmanite?




Where do you get this stuff?? The lack of logic and the obvious grasping at straws is nothing short of appalling! And you want people to view you as a Theologian???

JDS, the first rule, when you find yourself in a hole, is to STOP DIGGING!!!

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JDS said:

I do notice that you offer very little of substance in your posts!

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nobdysfool said:

Sounds like something Peter Ruckman would say. Are you a Ruckmanite?

Have you ever read the book of Acts, the history of the beginning of the NT church?

Ac 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,


Ac 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Ac 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them

Get a map out and see where Macedonia is!

Paul said over and over that he was the apostles to the gentiles.

Table of Nations - Gen 10

1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

I do not feel bad about calling the Japhetic nations gentiles if God called them that. And I do not think it strange if God sent Paul, the apostle to the gentiles west, where the gentiles lived.

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oworm said:

Don't bite folks!

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nobdysfool said:

Folks, Let's keep our eye on the ball here, and ignore JDS and his attempts to hijack the thread.

The question has been put forth, and a request made, for a certain poster to parse the Greek in Ephesians 2 and demonstrate his contention that Faith is not a gift of God. Let's focus on that, and ignore the flack and noise from the anti-Calvinist who wants to derail this thread.

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Rep Daddy said:

Let's get back to soteriology.

Seems like there are questions that our non-Calvinistic friends have not answered. We surely would not wan these to just be swept back and forgotten.

Van, you're up...

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JDS said:

What is it about Ephesians 2 that you need for the Greek to make plainer?

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