The Tulip is broken

[JDS]

No one has said that there is no will involved, only that man's will is not the prime motivator, or even the tipping factor. The Father drags men to Christ. Once they are regenerated, they choose to follow Him. Unconditional election and Irresistible grace in action.

I think this is an attack against truth. It is the ordo salutis of having the Holy Spirit given to men twice. It makes the gift of God spoken of in scripture to be life, faith, and eternal life. It makes regeneration to be something other than salvation and it sets up a form of doctrine that has absolutely no scriptural explanation and no one has ever offered any. Certainly these fellows on this forum have not defended a single calvinistic doctrine. They simply restate what calvinism teaches as if that is proof. This shows they are unable to do it, or unwilling, or that they are mindlessly following this system because they like the association.

The Spirit is life, the Scriptures say Rom 8:10.
The gift of God is eternal life, the Scriptures say Rom 6:23
The Spirit is God Acts 5:3-5
The Spirit is eternal Heb 9:14
The Spirit is the gift of God Acts 10:44-45,47; 11:14-17
The Spirit quickens the sinner once eternally by his indwelling presence Rom 8:11
The Spirit is he who births the believer into God's family and the kingdom Jn 3:5,6 Jn 1:12,13
The Spirit is he who quickened Jesus Christ when he was dead 1 Pet 3:18
The Spirit quickens the believer Rom 8:11
The Spirit is received by faith (Not unto faith) Gal 3:14
The Spirit and salvation is the same and equal - Acts 10:1-6; 43,44; Acts 11:13-15,17-18
The Spirit is the agent of regeneration and salvation Titus 3:5-6
The Spirit is the grace of God Heb 10:29

I predict that not one of these people whose theology and going to heaven depends on a doctrine that says God gives life so one can believe and then be given eternal life and salvation, or will define the life that one is given so they can believe, or will defend it and show us where it is found in scripture.

Why will they refuse to do it?

Because it is not found in scripture.

My Calvinist friends, I bring this challenge up so you might look deeper into what you are being asked by this system to believe and to learn that it is untenable when compared withh the truth.

This is about all I can do. I do not wish to contend with you about this forever.

 

[A New Dawn]

I think this is an attack against truth. It is the ordo salutis of having the Holy Spirit given to men twice. It makes the gift of God spoken of in scripture to be life, faith, and eternal life. It makes regeneration to be something other than salvation and it sets up a form of doctrine that has absolutely no scriptural explanation and no one has ever offered any. Certainly these fellows on this forum have not defended a single calvinistic doctrine. They simply restate what calvinism teaches as if that is proof. This shows they are unable to do it, or unwilling, or that they are mindlessly following this system because they like the association.

The Spirit is life, the Scriptures say Rom 8:10.
The gift of God is eternal life, the Scriptures say Rom 6:23
The Spirit is God Acts 5:3-5
The Spirit is eternal Heb 9:14
The Spirit is the gift of God Acts 10:44-45,47; 11:14-17
The Spirit quickens the sinner once eternally by his indwelling presence Rom 8:11
The Spirit is he who births the believer into God's family and the kingdom Jn 3:5,6 Jn 1:12,13
The Spirit is he who quickened Jesus Christ when he was dead 1 Pet 3:18
The Spirit quickens the believer Rom 8:11
The Spirit is received by faith (Not unto faith) Gal 3:14
The Spirit and salvation is the same and equal - Acts 10:1-6; 43,44; Acts 11:13-15,17-18
The Spirit is the agent of regeneration and salvation Titus 3:5-6
The Spirit is the grace of God Heb 10:29

I predict that not one of these people whose theology and going to heaven depends on a doctrine that says God gives life so one can believe and then be given eternal life and salvation, or will define the life that one is given so they can believe, or will defend it and show us where it is found in scripture.

Why will they refuse to do it?

Because it is not found in scripture.

My Calvinist friends, I bring this challenge up so you might look deeper into what you are being asked by this system to believe and to learn that it is untenable when compared withh the truth.

This is about all I can do. I do not wish to contend with you about this forever.

What are you rambling on about? The Bible is full of scriptures that say God gives us new life so we can believe. Just because your mind is so set in what you want to believe that you can't see what is right in front of you does not change what is being said.

None understand God. None seek after Him. (Romans 3:11)
No one can come unto Christ unless the Father draws him. (John 6:44)
Only those with ears to hear will hear the gospel. (Matthew 13:13)
We are saved by faith, which doesn't come from ourselves (so we cannot boast in our own salvation). (Ephesians 2:8)
He quickens those who are dead in their trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1, 5)
We are His workmanship. (That means He made us who we are.) (Ephesians 2:10)
The potter has power over the clay, to turn them into vessels of honor or dishonor. (Romans 9:21)

There are just loads and loads of them. Just read the Bible without Arminian-colored spectacles on.

 

[JDS]

The Bible is full of scriptures that say God gives us new life so we can believe.

I will settle for one!

I said in my last post these words:
Certainly these fellows on this forum have not defended a single calvinistic doctrine. They simply restate what calvinism teaches as if that is proof. This shows they are unable to do it, or unwilling, or that they are mindlessly following this system because they like the association.

See how quickly New Dawn attempted to confirm my words and make me look smart? Really though, I am not that smart. It is just that they are that predictable.

 

[A New Dawn]

I will settle for one!

I said in my last post these words:
Certainly these fellows on this forum have not defended a single calvinistic doctrine. They simply restate what calvinism teaches as if that is proof. This shows they are unable to do it, or unwilling, or that they are mindlessly following this system because they like the association.

See how quickly New Dawn attempted to confirm my words and make me look smart? Really though, I am not that smart. It is just that they are that predictable.

And see how quick JDS is to run from real discussion. I posted scripture and you didn't say one word about them. Ignoring them won't make them go away.

 

[nobdysfool]

I think this is an attack against truth. It is the ordo salutis of having the Holy Spirit given to men twice. It makes the gift of God spoken of in scripture to be life, faith, and eternal life. It makes regeneration to be something other than salvation and it sets up a form of doctrine that has absolutely no scriptural explanation and no one has ever offered any. Certainly these fellows on this forum have not defended a single calvinistic doctrine. They simply restate what calvinism teaches as if that is proof. This shows they are unable to do it, or unwilling, or that they are mindlessly following this system because they like the association.

Another one who thinks that any interaction with man by the Holy Spirit necessarily means that the Spirit must indwell. Given the Holy Spirit twice? What are you smoking? Calvinism teaches no such thing. Once again you display a complete lack of qualification to oppose Calvinism. You have not and cannot cite even one tenet of Calvinism correctly.

You say we have not defended a single Calvinist doctrine. We say you have not stated one correctly, in order for us to defend it. None of us are going to waste time trying to defend something that isn't what we believe. We are quite able to defend Calvinist doctrine, and will do so, once you actually cite a tenet of it correctly. All you're doing is erecting straw man after straw man.

The Spirit is life, the Scriptures say Rom 8:10.
The gift of God is eternal life, the Scriptures say Rom 6:23
The Spirit is God Acts 5:3-5
The Spirit is eternal Heb 9:14
The Spirit is the gift of God Acts 10:44-45,47; 11:14-17
The Spirit quickens the sinner once eternally by his indwelling presence Rom 8:11
The Spirit is he who births the believer into God's family and the kingdom Jn 3:5,6 Jn 1:12,13
The Spirit is he who quickened Jesus Christ when he was dead 1 Pet 3:18
The Spirit quickens the believer Rom 8:11
The Spirit is received by faith (Not unto faith) Gal 3:14
The Spirit and salvation is the same and equal - Acts 10:1-6; 43,44; Acts 11:13-15,17-18
The Spirit is the agent of regeneration and salvation Titus 3:5-6
The Spirit is the grace of God Heb 10:29

None of these scriptures in any way refutes Calvinism. Not a one of them.

I predict that not one of these people whose theology and going to heaven depends on a doctrine that says God gives life so one can believe and then be given eternal life and salvation, or will define the life that one is given so they can believe, or will defend it and show us where it is found in scripture.

You're tilting at windmills, and trying to pick a fight. We know what we believe, and it is abundantly obvious that you don't. Your attitude precludes much. Why should we waste our time trying to correct someone who clearly isn't open to being corrected, because he thinks he already knows?

Why will they refuse to do it?

Because it is not found in scripture.

Correction: Because you can't see it in scripture. And because we won't waste our time trying to defend your false version of Calvinist doctrine.

My Calvinist friends, I bring this challenge up so you might look deeper into what you are being asked by this system to believe and to learn that it is untenable when compared withh the truth.

This is about all I can do. I do not wish to contend with you about this forever.

Well, you can stop the contention right now. We're not swayed by the misinformation, false statements, and bluff and bluster and indignation that you try to pass off as the truth. We have told you repeatedly that you do not have correct knowledge, and need to learn correctly about that which you think to oppose. Until you do that, and demonstrate that you have correct understanding, there is nothing to discuss. You come in here and instantly insult the Calvinists, and then whine that they won't give you what you want, which is basically capitulation.

You're in error, period.

 

[Van]

What are you rambling on about? The Bible is full of scriptures that say God gives us new life so we can believe. Just because your mind is so set in what you want to believe that you can't see what is right in front of you does not change what is being said.

None understand God. None seek after Him. (Romans 3:11)
No one can come unto Christ unless the Father draws him. (John 6:44)
Only those with ears to hear will hear the gospel. (Matthew 13:13)
We are saved by faith, which doesn't come from ourselves (so we cannot boast in our own salvation). (Ephesians 2:8)
He quickens those who are dead in their trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1, 5)
We are His workmanship. (That means He made us who we are.) (Ephesians 2:10)
The potter has power over the clay, to turn them into vessels of honor or dishonor. (Romans 9:21)

Here is the typical claim, utterly false of Calvinism. Not one of the verses posted supports the premise in the slightest.

No one understands? Paul is referring to an OT scripture which says those who say there is no God do not understand. So the verse is not saying no one understands the gospel. That is absurd.

No one seeks after God? Paul is referring to an OT scripture which says those who say there is no God do not seek after God. So the verse is not saying no one ever seeks after God, but rather no one seeks after God when they are sinning. And we all sin so at one time or another no one seeks after God, but at other times some men do.

And Matthew 13:13 actually teaches, in context, that unregenerate folks can hear the gospel. Therefore Jesus, in order to prevent it, spoke in parables. LOL

Ephesians 2:8 does not say faith is a gift of God. Greek grammar precludes that interpretation, yet it is posted again and again, as if truth does not matter. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God through our faith in Christ.

And God does "quicken" the unregenerate which is to say saves the unregenerate, because to make alive is to regenerate, to cause to be born again spiritually. But this being made alive together with Christ occurs after we believe and God credits our faith as righteousness. "For by grace you have been saved through faith."

Born again believers are His workmanship, created for good works. But before God causes us to be born again, we believed, John 1:12-13.

And finally Romans 9:21 absolutely supports that we, being a lump of clay can be made a vessel of honor or dishonor. When we become the called, those who God has credited faith as righteousness, God makes us vessels of mercy.

And so once again, it has been shown that not one verse supports the false doctrine of Calvinism. Not one!

 

[A New Dawn]

Here is the typical claim, utterly false of Calvinism. Not one of the verses posted supports the premise in the slightest.

No one understands? Paul is referring to an OT scripture which says those who say there is no God do not understand. So the verse is not saying no one understands the gospel. That is absurd.

No one seeks after God? Paul is referring to an OT scripture which says those who say there is no God do not seek after God. So the verse is not saying no one ever seeks after God, but rather no one seeks after God when they are sinning. And we all sin so at one time or another no one seeks after God, but at other times some men do.

Paul is quoting it and stating that it still applies! Of course no one who believes in God is seeking Him or understands Him. That is everyone before they are given new life by Christ.

And Matthew 13:13 actually teaches, in context, that unregenerate folks can hear the gospel. Therefore Jesus, in order to prevent it, spoke in parables. LOL

There is nothing in Matthew 13 that suggests that the unregenerate can hear the gospel. The parables are spoken so that those who have ears to hear can discern it. There is nothing, physically, that prevents people from hearing it, so it must be a spiritual prohibition. If God had intended for everyone to understand, He'd have given everyone ears to hear right up front.

Ephesians 2:8 does not say faith is a gift of God. Greek grammar precludes that interpretation, yet it is posted again and again, as if truth does not matter. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God through our faith in Christ.

I think you are wrong about that. It was explained to me that it is all a gift, but that the word gift, itself, refers back to faith.

And God does "quicken" the unregenerate which is to say saves the unregenerate, because to make alive is to regenerate, to cause to be born again spiritually. But this being made alive together with Christ occurs after we believe and God credits our faith as righteousness. "For by grace you have been saved through faith."

It is all part of the same process. Regeneration not only changes our hearts, we are justified and given faith at the same time.

Born again believers are His workmanship, created for good works. But before God causes us to be born again, we believed, John 1:12-13.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



It says right in verse 13 that we were not born by the will of flesh, but by God, so how do you think that we believed if God did not give us the will to do so?

And finally Romans 9:21 absolutely supports that we, being a lump of clay can be made a vessel of honor or dishonor. When we become the called, those who God has credited faith as righteousness, God makes us vessels of mercy.

And so once again, it has been shown that not one verse supports the false doctrine of Calvinism. Not one!

You haven't shown anything. LOL. You have stated your opinion without anything to back it up. You have taken verses that clearly show that our faith comes from God and have somehow tried to make it appear that we somehow had a hand in obtaining something that wasn't ours to give to ourselves.

If God selects us (none of us understanding or seeking), Christ draws us and freely gives us salvation through faith (indicating that both salvation and faith are what is given to us (so that we can't boast of obtaining it on our own), why would you go on to say that we did obtain it on our own? How is that not boasting in yourself?

 

[oworm]

Ephesians 2:8 does not say faith is a gift of God. Greek grammar precludes that interpretation, yet it is posted again and again, as if truth does not matter. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God through our faith in Christ.

Van.
Which greek text are you using? Can you explain contextually and exegetically from Ephesians how you arrive at the conclusion that faith is not a gift of God? I would be very interested to see how you arrive at your assertion. Thanks

 

[Van]

Oworm, why don't you drop the act, and accept the view of D. Wallace? He is a Calvinist but is unwilling to trade in his integrity to falsely interpret the text.

 

[oworm]

Oworm, why don't you drop the act, and accept the view of D. Wallace? He is a Calvinist but is unwilling to trade in his integrity to falsely interpret the text.

Sorry I am not "acting". You are attacking my integrity and assigning motives that do not exist.I am not interested in another Calvinists interpretation merely because he wears a tag.

As a student of NT greek I am genuinly interested in your claim that the greek text in Eph 2:8 doesnt support the claim that faith is a gift.
I presume you are also a student of greek and merely asked you to parse the text. Can you do that please?

 

[beloved57]

No one understands?

Yes..this is scripture you deny..

rom 3:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

There is none that understandeth, paul here uses the present tense.indicative mood.meaning this:

There is none presently understanding, contiually not understanding..

note on preset tense indciative:


"Continuously, constantly, habitually". Present Tense with the indicative mood represents contemporaneous action, as opposed to action in the past or future. In moods other than in the indicative mood, it refers only to continuous or repeated action.

So paul is not referring to presnt tense action in the past as van asserts, but he is describing contemporaneous action in his present..

none understandeth..
Suniemi:

1. to set or bring together
   1. in a hostile sense, of combatants
2. to put (as it were) the perception with the thing perceived
   1. to set or join together in the mind
      1. i.e. to understand: the man of understanding
      2. idiom for: a good and upright man (having the knowledge of those things which pertain to salvation

So none could percieve, or put it all together in their mind..about God..

This is a compliment to pauls teaching in 1 cor 2:

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now of course van is going to deny and gain say this truth, because he doesnt believe the bible..

​

 

[Van]

Paul is applying the verse to demonstrate everyone is under sin. To assert otherwise is to present falsehood.

Just read Matthew 13:13-16 folks, Jesus spoke in parables to prevent the unregenerate from understanding the gospel. Just read it and decide for yourselves.

John 1:12-13 says after we believe, then we are given the right to become children of God. We become children of God when we are born again, and so faith comes before regeneration. QED

I have backed every statement up and you have denied it. It is pointless to continue. Folks just read John 1:12-13, just read Matthew 13:1-23, just read Matthew 23:13 and 1 John 2:2. The Tulip is broken and someone saying "taint so" does not make it not so.

Final thought, when we trust in Christ, rather than ourselves for our salvation, that means we can boast in the Lord and not in ourselves. It is God who credits our faith as righteousness, our faith by itself is worthless.

 

[Van]

Oworm,
Please demonstrate how you can refute D. Wallace? LOL

Folks, Calvinists claim grammar supports their view, but now with the internet, their claims are easily shown to be false, as I have done numerous times. The gift is salvation, and that not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast.

 

[oworm]

Oworm,
Please demonstrate how you can refute D. Wallace? LO.

This has nothing to do with Dr Wallace or the internet Van. Its about you substantiating your own claim to the knowledge of the original text.

Are you deliberately avoiding my question?

YOU claimed that the greek grammar precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God. All I am asking is that you substantiate the claim that YOU made. Can you do that Van?

 

[oworm]

Ephesians 2:8 does not say faith is a gift of God. Greek grammar precludes that interpretation, yet it is posted again and again, as if truth does not matter. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God through our faith in Christ.

Van, It seemed apparent from your statement above that what you posted was out of a pre existent knowledge of the greek text? All I am asking is that you show from your own understanding of the greek grammar how the text of Ehp 2:8 precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God?

I am only asking that you substantiate your claim by referring to the greek grammar itself and showing from your own parsing of the text what you believe to be the correct exegesis. As a self proclaimed student of greek-implicit from your claim- you should be able to do that!

Why would you not be willing to do that since you yourself made the claim? Why would you not be willing to go to the greek text which is the closest to the original autograph that we have and substantiate your claim authoritively and exegetically? I would have thought this would be a golden opportunity to show decisivly and irrefutably from the infallible and inerrant word of God that faith is not a gift from God? Surely that would end the argument right here and now and leave the rest of us struck dumb in the face of truth?

Can you stand behind your claim Van and show from your knowledge of the greek text (A knowledge that you implicitly claimed to posses) that faith as a gift from God is precluded from Eph2:8?

 

[nobdysfool]

Van, It seemed apparent from your statement above that what you posted was out of a pre existent knowledge of the greek text? All I am asking is that you show from your own understanding of the greek grammar how the text of Ehp 2:8 precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God?

I am only asking that you substantiate your claim by reffering to the greek grammar itself and showing from your own parsing of the text what you believe to be the correct exegesis.

Why would you not be willing to do that since you yourself made the claim? Why would you not be willing to go to the greek text which is the closest to the original autograph that we have and substantiate your claim authoritively and exegetically? I would have thought this would be a golden opportunity to show decisivly and irrefutably from the infallible and inerrant word of God that faith is not a gift from God? Surely that would end the argument right here and now and leave the rest of us struck dumb in the face of truth?

No Greek examination will be forthcoming. I think you know that. There is no substance to back up the words. The OP has been defeated, and soundly refuted.

 

[oworm]

Van
Here is the greek text of Ephesians 2:8. Would you be willing to parse it out for the benefit of the folks here to show how you reach your conclusion, as posted above that the greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God? Maybe you could start with an interpretation of each word for the benefit of those not versed in greek and then go on to parse each word and show how the verse is constructed.

ΠΡΟΣ ΕΦΕΣΙΟΥΣ 2 :8

τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον


(Greek NT: Byzantine / Majority Text (2000)

 

[JDS]

Van
Here is the greek text of Ephesians 2:8. Would you be willing to parse it out for the benefit of the folks here to show how you reach your conclusion, as posted above that the greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God? Maybe you could start with an interpretation of each word for the benefit of those not versed in greek and then go on to parse each word and show how the verse is constructed.

ΠΡΟΣ ΕΦΕΣΙΟΥΣ 2 :8

τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον


(Greek NT: Byzantine / Majority Text (2000)

What difference does it make what the Greek text says? We speak English round here and we have a KJ Bible which is an absolutely accurate translation of the living word of God so that we do not have to guess what God says.

He says the gentiles were dead in trespasses and sins.

He said he saved them by grace through faith.

Faith is not salvation! Anyone ought to know that! Life is salvation! They were dead, you see. Now they are saved! What does being saved mean? That they have been given Faith? That would be silly! Faith is the means through which they received life.

The wages of sin is death! The condition of the gentiles in Ep 2:1
The gift of God is eternal life! The condition of the gentiles in Ep 2: 5

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

The quickening is by the Spirit of God.

If anyone misses this it is because they are making an effort to do so!

 

[A New Dawn]

What difference does it make what the Greek text says? We speak English round here and we have a KJ Bible which is an absolutely accurate translation of the living word of God so that we do not have to guess what God says.

Because Greek is the language it was originally written in. It is there one must go to understand what was said and how the words relate to each other. An accurate translation helps us to understand, but when there are issues with word order or sentence structure, one must go back to the original to see things that English doesn't incorporate in their language (gender of nouns, verb tenses, etc.)

 

[frumanchu]

What difference does it make what the Greek text says? We speak English round here and we have a KJ Bible which is an absolutely accurate translation of the living word of God so that we do not have to guess what God says.

Translation is not an exact science, and no translation is perfect.

For example, in the KJV the translation of the beginning of 1 Tim 6:10 is "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." Are we to believe that love of money is the root of incest? Or idolatry? No. The translation here does not accurately convey what the original Greek does. There are plenty of other examples.

So the original Greek does make a difference. You can't be dismissive of it just because it complicates your argument.