The Tulip is broken

[AndOne]

What if a man who is elect and perseveres for 40 years and then falls away from the faith? What if he makes the case many times during those years before he falls away that he is elect? Will it be you that tells him he was never elect because he did not persevere or will it be him who admits he was obviously never elect?

If the man did not persevere he could not be elect, could he? The P is the last petal in the TULIP. It is not negotiable, is it?

Works has nothing to do with it.... And apparantly you do not understand the P part of Tulip....

Really - this is not something that Calvinists dwell on like you think it is. How many times do I have to repeat myself before you get the message?????

Do you know of any published Calvinists that think like this? Please list and quote them here....

 

[cygnusx1]

This dialog began when I posted a comment from Gen 6 that said God repented that he had made man and it greived him at his heart because of what man did.

Ge 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

I noted that God responded to man and changed his intentions of blessing him to judging him based on mans actions. I showed how God created all things for his pleasure. I showed how God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked yet he is killing a world full of people because of their contrary actions. He would not do that unless they knew his will and he would not have destroyed them if they would have obeyed him.

So far, no Calvinist has addressed this text and shown how it teaches Calvinists dogma concerning absolute sovereignty, the will and responsibility of man, and God's response within that context. What we have had is a regurgitation of the Calvinist views of these doctrines with very liitle effort to prove them scripturally because Calvinist doctrines state the opposite of what is given us plainly in the text. They have, infact, talked about everything else.

This text should be a source passage for the Calvinist views if they are scriptural. But, alas, not a word!

Once you understand Calvinists accept from scripture that God's WILL is varied but in harmony , your objections , which are as old as the hills , will seem to you bogus.

Does God delight in the death of the wicked ? No , not in and of itself , but rather that they would turn and live . REPENT ! is a universal command.

Does God decree that all will be saved , or that all will repent ? NO ! not even Arminians believe that.


Does God grieve at the death of the wicked ? Yes ! Sometimes .


and so there it is , no disunity or disharmony in the will of God at all.

 

[JDS]

Once you understand Calvinists accept from scripture that God's WILL is varied but in harmony , your objections , which are as old as the hills , will seem to you bogus.

Does God delight in the death of the wicked ? No , not in and of itself , but rather that they would turn and live . REPENT ! is a universal command.

Does God decree that all will be saved , or that all will repent ? NO ! not even Arminians believe that.


Does God grieve at the death of the wicked ? Yes ! Sometimes .


and so there it is , no disunity or disharmony in the will of God at all.

Don't tell me that there is no disharmony or disunity in the will of God if Calvinism is telling the truth about the sovereignty of God! I can read the scriptures for myself.

I have posted comments of God saying that he has created all things and for his pleasure they are and were created. Then I posted comments of God saying he was grieved at his heart with man that he had created to the point he was sorry he created them and that he would destroy them from off the earth, and he did.
This means that man failed to give God pleasure, which is his responsibility, and God responded with judgment. The scriptures are replete with examples of men acting by their own wills indefiance of God.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

He gives men much time to repent and then judgment because they did not.

You must apply Calvin logic to these arguments of yours and when you do they will leave you pulling your hair out. Look at what you said here:


"Does God delight in the death of the wicked ? No , not in and of itself , but rather that they would turn and live . REPENT ! is a universal command." (Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created)

How does one deal with logic like this? Calvinist logic says a dead man CAN"T repent and God has sovereignly chosen him for hatred (Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated) and for the day of destruction.

Then you say that men are responsible to repent, that they turn and live, and if he doesn't, God will judge him for his failure.

Compare these two statements. This is confusing to me!

Statement one
Does God delight in the death of the wicked ? No , not in and of itself , but rather that they would turn and live . REPENT ! is a universal command.

Statement Two
Does God decree that all will be saved , or that all will repent ? NO ! not even Arminians believe that.

If repentance is a universal command, as you say, and God is absolutely sovereign, then he has expressed his will in the command and men who did not repent resisted it and disobeyed!

Here is the definition for Decree:
1.a formal and authoritative order, esp. one having the force of law: a presidential decree. 2.Law. a judicial decision or order. 3.Theology. one of the eternal purposes of God, by which events are foreordained.

Here is the definition for Command
1.to direct with specific authority or prerogative; order: The captain commanded his men to attack. 2.to require authoritatively; demand:

I see no difference in decree and command!

You said in the first statement that God has commanded all men to repent and in the second satement you said he has not commanded all men to repent! There must be a will involved other than God's somewhere.

 

[cygnusx1]

Don't tell me that there is no disharmony or disunity in the will of God if Calvinism is telling the truth about the sovereignty of God! I can read the scriptures for myself.

fine , then in future don't be so dumb and pretencious as to ask if your reply is "I already have made up my mind".....


I don't have time for arrogant posters.

and you can't even see a difference between God's Will of Command and God's will of Decree !!!!!! and yet you have the temerity to speak as a kNow it all ..... LOL!


I refrain from giving you the bigger picture of 4 wills in God , you can't even accept two !

 

[cygnusx1]

"The following two statements are not contradictory and both are Scriptural
(1) God's desire is for all people to obey the gospel, repent and be saved
(2) God in no way desires to save the reprobate "

by John Hendryx


http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/hyper_vs_historic.html

 

[drstevej]

JDS, how can you make a comment on Calvinism when you do not even understand what Calvinism teaches?

Discussing this with you is a waste of time.

*reaches for the ignore button*

 

[JDS]

JDS, how can you make a comment on Calvinism when you do not even understand what Calvinism teaches?

Discussing this with you is a waste of time.

*reaches for the ignore button*

Good morning Rep Daddy

Calvinism is a soteriological system. It is how one is saved from hell. Spurgeon says it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

IT IS NOT SIMPLE!

​

 

[JDS]

"The following two statements are not contradictory and both are Scriptural
(1) God's desire is for all people to obey the gospel, repent and be saved
(2) God in no way desires to save the reprobate "

by John Hendryx


http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/hyper_vs_historic.html

I am speaking to you in a soteriological section of Christian Forums. Spurgeon says TULIP is the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the way of salvation.

(1) God's desire is for all people to obey the gospel, repent and be saved
(2) God in no way desires to save the reprobate "

Your statement here defies logic UNLESS REPROBATES ARE NOT PEOPLE!

IT IS NOT SIMPLE!

 

[nobdysfool]

So, because you don't think it's simple, therefore it cannot be true, is that it?

BTW, shouting does not make anything "more true".

the Gospel is so simple a child may understand it well enough to be saved, yet the greatest theological minds have spent their entire lives plumbing the depths of theological truth, and will be the first to admit that they still have only scratched the surface. Yet you come along and try to pass yourself off as an authority on the "theological failure" of Calvinism, but you cannot even correctly state one tenet of it, and what you do state, wrongly, is with an obviously biased comment. And we're supposed to believe that you are "only trying to help"?? No one needs help like that.

 

[Van]

the TULIP is broken and all the acolytes cannot put it together again.

Some unregenerate men do seek God, Matthew 13:20-22, so total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

God's election unto salvation is based on individual characteristics, James 2:5.

Christ died for all mankind, 1 John 2:2.

The grace of God's invitation is not irresistible, Matthew 23:13.

The Gospel of Christ looks broken when viewed through the lens of Calvinism, but it is the TULIP lens that is broken, whereas the gospel of Christ is unbroken.

Matthew 13:20-22 is not ripped out of context, it is part of the passage, Matthew 13:1-23. It says unregenerate men received the gospel with joy, therefore they were seeking God and desired fellowship with God, demonstrating that the "T" of the Tulip is broken.

Talk about ripping out of context, the choice of Jacob and Esau was not for the purpose of salvation through faith in Christ, the verse that addresses that election is James 2:5. And that election is conditional, teaching that the "U" in the Tulip is broken.

Christ died for all mankind, He is the propitiation for the whole world, He laid down is life as a ransom for all, and therefore the "L" of the Tulip is broken by 1 John 2:2. Even John Calvin, himself, agreed Christ died for all mankind.

The grace of God's revelation provides all a person needs to have sufficient faith to be entering heaven, but false teachers can lead a person astray as they are entering and prevent them from entering. Thus the "I" of the Tulip is broken by Matthew 23:13.

 

[Van]

God is totally responsible for salvation. He saves us, we do not save ourselves by believing in Jesus. But when God credits our faith as righteousness, then He saves us. If He had given us our faith, it would be righteous already and not need to be credited as righteousness.

 

[Van]

What part of us makes us believe in Christ as Lord and Savior.

(1) What part of us makes us believe? Folks do you see how compulsion is embedded into Calvinist thinking? Why not ask what part of us allows us to believe? Because the anwer is our God given ability to autonomously believe or not believe, to trust or rely upon this or that!

(2) What allows us to believe in Christ? Four things (a) God allows us to come to Christ, He does not preclude us by hardening our hearts. (b) We have not so hardened our own heart by the practice of sin that we are unable to even understand the gospel. (c) We believe in God and are "of God" which is to say under the influence of God. And (d) we hear or are exposed to the gospel of Christ.

(3) Does our God given ability to understand some spiritual things in our natural fallen state reside in our human spirit or in our flesh? In our human spirit. Romans 2 says we can understand the invisible attributes of God from what He has made, so the spirit can learn from our environment, or put another way, from what God puts before us, which includes His revelation.

(4) Does our faith originate from God? Yes, God is the first cause of everything. God gave us the ability to hear, understand, accept and trust fully in God. God provided His revelation, including the gospel of Christ which is the power of God to salvation.
Does this mean God instills our faith via irresistible grace, and therefore compels us to believe? Nope

 

[cygnusx1]

TULIP remains wonderfully accurate summary of Soteriology taken from scriptures regardless of that song .... "Just as I spam , without one plea but that MY FREE_WILL is everything to me ....... "

God is totally responsible for our salvation , sinners are totally responsible for their destruction.

 

[beloved57]

van says:

God gave us the ability to hear, understand

scripture says jn 8:


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

[cygnusx1]

I am speaking to you in a soteriological section of Christian Forums. Spurgeon says TULIP is the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the way of salvation.

(1) God's desire is for all people to obey the gospel, repent and be saved
(2) God in no way desires to save the reprobate "

Your statement here defies logic UNLESS REPROBATES ARE NOT PEOPLE!

IT IS NOT SIMPLE!

Proverbs 1 [22] How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

 

[cygnusx1]

I. TOTAL DEPRAVITY
A. Arminian Position: Man is spiritually sick. Fallen man was seriously affected by the fall but he still has the ability to choose spiritual good. He determines his eternal destiny by either accepting or rejecting God's mercies.
B. Reformed Position: Man is spiritually dead. Because of the fall, man has become spiritually dead, blind and deaf to the things of God and is therefore unable of himself to choose spiritual good and determine his own destiny.
C. Scriptural Support for the Reformed Position


1. The fall has resulted in spiritual death to all men.


Gen.2:16 - Gen.2:17 (NKJ)
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Romans.5:12 - Romans.5:12 (NKJ)
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
Eph.2:1 - Eph.2:3 (NKJ)
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Col.2:13 - Col.2:13 (NKJ)
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,


2. Fallen man is now blind and deaf to spiritual truth.

Gen.6:5 - Gen.6:5 (NKJ)
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen.8:21 - Gen.8:21 (NKJ)
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
Ecc.9:3 - Ecc.9:3 (NKJ)
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Jer.17:9 - Jer.17:9 (NKJ)
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
Mark.7:21 - Mark.7:23 (NKJ)
21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,22 "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."


3. Fallen man is now under the control of Satan and in bondage to sin

John.8:44 - John.8:44 (NKJ)
44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Eph.2:1 - Eph.2:2 (NKJ)
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience
2Tim.2:25 - 2Tim.2:26 (NKJ)
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
1John.3:10 - 1John.3:10 (NKJ)
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
1John.5:19 - 1John.5:19 (NKJ)
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
Rom.6:20 - Rom.6:20 (NKJ)
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Titus.3:3 - Titus.3:3 (NKJ)
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.


4. Fallen man, left in his dead state, is totally unable to repent, to believe the gospel, or to come to Christ.

John.6:44 - John.6:44 (NKJ)
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [Note: The word here translated draws is translated as drags in other passages, such as John 21:11, Acts 21:30, and Acts 16:19.]
John.6:65 - John.6:65 (NKJ)
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
Rom.3:9 - Rom.3:12 (NKJ)
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
Rom.8:7 - Rom.8:8 (NKJ)
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1Cor.2:14 - 1Cor.2:14 (NKJ)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


http://www.spiritone.com/~wing/tulipscriptures.htm

 

[A New Dawn]

the TULIP is broken and all the acolytes cannot put it together again.

Some unregenerate men do seek God, Matthew 13:20-22, so total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

God's election unto salvation is based on individual characteristics, James 2:5.

Christ died for all mankind, 1 John 2:2.

The grace of God's invitation is not irresistible, Matthew 23:13.

The Gospel of Christ looks broken when viewed through the lens of Calvinism, but it is the TULIP lens that is broken, whereas the gospel of Christ is unbroken.

Matthew 13:20-22 is not ripped out of context, it is part of the passage, Matthew 13:1-23. It says unregenerate men received the gospel with joy, therefore they were seeking God and desired fellowship with God, demonstrating that the "T" of the Tulip is broken.

Talk about ripping out of context, the choice of Jacob and Esau was not for the purpose of salvation through faith in Christ, the verse that addresses that election is James 2:5. And that election is conditional, teaching that the "U" in the Tulip is broken.

Christ died for all mankind, He is the propitiation for the whole world, He laid down is life as a ransom for all, and therefore the "L" of the Tulip is broken by 1 John 2:2. Even John Calvin, himself, agreed Christ died for all mankind.

The grace of God's revelation provides all a person needs to have sufficient faith to be entering heaven, but false teachers can lead a person astray as they are entering and prevent them from entering. Thus the "I" of the Tulip is broken by Matthew 23:13.

You must be reading a different Matthew than the rest of us are reading, because Matthew 23:13 says nothing about the gospel being offered to all men and some refusing it.

And Matthew 13 clearly says that those who have ears to hear will hear the truth, and those who don't won't. Not everyone has ears to hear, or all would hear. It is as plain as the nose on your face.

Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

 

[beloved57]

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
__________________

Good verse..this describes the stony ground hearers..matt 13 20-21 they hear externally, but not internally..

 

[JDS]

So, because you don't think it's simple, therefore it cannot be true, is that it?

BTW, shouting does not make anything "more true".

the Gospel is so simple a child may understand it well enough to be saved, yet the greatest theological minds have spent their entire lives plumbing the depths of theological truth, and will be the first to admit that they still have only scratched the surface. Yet you come along and try to pass yourself off as an authority on the "theological failure" of Calvinism, but you cannot even correctly state one tenet of it, and what you do state, wrongly, is with an obviously biased comment. And we're supposed to believe that you are "only trying to help"?? No one needs help like that.

Not one of you have dealt with the scriptures that I advanced that shows a clear and present conflict with your philosophy based theological system, because you can't. Even Rep Daddy who is so popular on here that it seems that some wish him to run for president and who has taught in semanaries for 30 years and may be the accepted resident scholar here has just offered one liners in the scoffing mode but nothing of substance.

All of you have just regurgitated the same ole doctrines that I already know about. It is comical.

Now, NBF, Spurgeon said "Calvinism is the gospel". He did not say some of Calvinism is the gospel. Calvinism is summarized in the TULIP, which means that TULIP is the gospel of Jesus Christ according to him and everyone who agrees with his statement. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, the bible says, and it is a simple thing to be saved. TULIP is not simple.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the gospel according to the scriptures;

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Where is that in the TULIP?

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Who is a candidate to be a whosoever?

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride (The church) say, Come. (This is the drawing and the calling by the gospel) And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Now, I would ask you to reconsider that there is no will involved in the response to the gospel call. The church who is commissioned to preach the gospel is filled with the Spirit and so the Spirit and the bride say come and drink.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

 

[nobdysfool]

Not one of you have dealt with the scriptures that I advanced that shows a clear and present conflict with your philosophy based theological system, because you can't. Even Rep Daddy who is so popular on here that it seems that some wish him to run for president and who has taught in semanaries for 30 years and may be the accepted resident scholar here has just offered one liners in the scoffing mode but nothing of substance.

All of you have just regurgitated the same ole doctrines that I already know about. It is comical.

We're not laughing. Nothing comical about it, because you are inserting your preconceived notions of Calvinism into every statement you make, to the point where rather than trying to untangle the mess you've created, we're telling you that you need to go to the source and learn it, before you attempt to deconstruct it.

Now, NBF, Spurgeon said "Calvinism is the gospel". He did not say some of Calvinism is the gospel. Calvinism is summarized in the TULIP, which means that TULIP is the gospel of Jesus Christ according to him and everyone who agrees with his statement.

Well, he just happened to have it right. Indeed Spurgeon did say that, and he was absolutely correct.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, the bible says, and it is a simple thing to be saved.

Indeed the bible does say that. But, as with all of the things of God, they are simple enough for a child to understand, and at the same time deep enough to occupy theologians for a lifetime, and there be still more to learn.

TULIP is not simple.

Maybe not to you, but others here don't seem to have that problem.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the gospel according to the scriptures;

Ah, but it is more than that, is it not? It is the Good news that you can be saved from your sins, and receive everlasting life.

So you're trying to limit the gospel aren't you?

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Where is that in the TULIP?

It's there. Apparently you're one of those who thinks that all Truth is spelled out in just so many words. You're like the lazy miner who expects the gold, silver, and gems to be laying about on top of the ground, and scoffs at the idea of digging for them.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Who is a candidate to be a whosoever?

"Whosoever" does not address either the ability or inclination of anyone. It states a Truism: If someone does "A", "B" is the result. Whosoever believes, will have everlasting life. No mention is made of the ability of "whosoever" to come.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride (The church) say, Come. (This is the drawing and the calling by the gospel) And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Now, I would ask you to reconsider that there is no will involved in the response to the gospel call. The church who is commissioned to preach the gospel is filled with the Spirit and so the Spirit and the bride say come and drink.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

No one has said that there is no will involved, only that man's will is not the prime motivator, or even the tipping factor. The Father drags men to Christ. Once they are regenerated, they choose to follow Him. Unconditional election and Irresistible grace in action.

You are in great need of learning that which you think to destroy. You say you are here to help. So are we, and we are telling you what help you need. Go and learn what Calvinism truly is, and what it truly teaches, and then you will be knowledgeable enough to address your concerns, (if you still have any).