The Truth about Islam

[TG123]

The truth about what Islam is truly about, falls on deaf ears towards fundamentalist Christians. To them, they have "studied" Islam, watched enough news and gotten enought "Islamic" and "Non-Islamic" sources that they are more apt to tell Muslims what our own faith is about and how we should act.

All the while they do this, they tell us that we need to speak out more against radical Islam. Even though they have stated that radical Islam is the true way to be. My question, is why even state the need to speak out when you clearly have a better idea of Islam is than I (or any other Muslim on here) is.

I am a fundamentalist Christian also, but don't think I'm in the group of people this post is directed to. Some people hate Muslims and Islam, and delight in spreading misinformation and will not stop, no matter how often the truth about their allegations is presented towards them. It is unlikely they will ever change.

As you know, I do not believe Islam is from God, and after having read the Quran and as I study the hadiths I see errors in them that make it crystal clear to me that Muhammad was not God's prophet and the Quran is not from God.

What I do not see is calls for Muslims to attack and conquer non-Muslims who are not harming them. I also do not see any calls for terrorism against civilians.

In terms of condemning terrorist activity when it is perpetrated by people claiming to be Muslims who belong in extremist groups, I see Muslims doing this.

What I do not see Muslims doing is condemning the actions of governments of Muslim countries that persecute non-Muslims. I have to confess I have not seen Muslims rally en-masse against discrimination against non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, like they (and myself also) rallied against the hijab ban in France. I have seen and taken part in rallies well attended by Muslims against Israeli crimes against Palestinians, I have not seen any rallies against Indonesia's occupation of West Papua. I do not see rallies against the occupation of Kurdistan.

Even on this forum, I have yet to meet a Muslim who has come out and openly denounced Indonesia for occupying West Papua- aside from vague and blanket statements like "all injustice is wrong"- which comes as often from people who will refuse to denounce Israeli or American crimes in the West Bank or Afghanistan. I have seen more examples- on and off the forum- of non-Muslims speaking out openly and directly and specifically against state violence against Muslims, than of Muslims speaking out openly and directly and specifically against violence against state violence against non-Muslims.

Just being honest with you on that, my friend. This is no way a verification of what some people write about your religion but in terms of Muslims speaking out against crimes against non-Muslims, I see this a lot more rarely than non-Muslims speaking out against crimes committed against Muslims.

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

What I do not see Muslims doing is condemning the actions of governments of Muslim countries that persecute non-Muslims.

I have, along with many more Muslims, have condemed the actions of Muslim governments and their treatment of individuals. Also, if the riots in the Middle East have not shown you how much we want the governments to change the treatement of it's citzens and how it's run, what else do you want done?

Even on this forum, I have yet to meet a Muslim who has come out and openly denounced Indonesia for occupying West Papua- aside from vague and blanket statements like "all injustice is wrong"- which comes as often from people who will refuse to denounce Israeli or American crimes in the West Bank or Afghanistan.

That issue of West Papua is on both sides of the house. The occupation of West Papua is no different, than the occupation of Northern Ireland and Scotland by the British; it is no different than that of Hawaii as well. I spoke about this in the thread as well. Anyone killing an innocent, regardless of how you feel personally about that individual, is wrong in Islam period. That's all I'm going to say about that matter.

 

[TG123]

I have, along with many more Muslims, have condemed the actions of Muslim governments and their treatment of individuals. Also, if the riots in the Middle East have not shown you how much we want the governments to change the treatement of it's citzens and how it's run, what else do you want done?

I'm sorry, I must have missed the posts condemning the mistreatment of Christians and Ahmadis and other non-Muslims that you and others have posted. Could you please show them. My apologies for missing them.

That issue of West Papua is on both sides of the house. The occupation of West Papua is no different, than the occupation of Northern Ireland and Scotland by the British; it is no different than that of Hawaii as well. I spoke about this in the thread as well. Anyone killing an innocent, regardless of how you feel personally about that individual, is wrong in Islam period. That's all I'm going to say about that matter.

It is also no different than the occupation of Palestinian lands by the Israelis, or the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq by NATO and the US.

Yet Muslims are more outspoken in condemning Israel and the US than Indonesia. How many posts do see on this forum by Muslims condemning Israeli and American war crimes? How many posts do we see by Muslims condemning Indonesian war crimes?

You can (and maybe will) respond by asking how many posts do we see here by Christians condemning mistreatment of Muslims by Christians or Jews. The answer will be not many, but there are some.

All I am saying is that if we truly are concerned about injustices and human rights violations, we should take the same tough stance against all who commit them. Condemning one set of wrongs while ignoring others is wrong. Christians are guilty of this as often as Muslims and other people are.

 

[ContraMundum]

The truth about what Islam is truly about, falls on deaf ears towards fundamentalist Christians. To them, they have "studied" Islam, watched enough news and gotten enought "Islamic" and "Non-Islamic" sources that they are more apt to tell Muslims what our own faith is about and how we should act.

All the while they do this, they tell us that we need to speak out more against radical Islam. Even though they have stated that radical Islam is the true way to be. My question, is why even state the need to speak out when you clearly have a better idea of Islam is than I (or any other Muslim on here) is.

You think only fundamentalist Christians think Islam is a violent, irrational, Imperialist religious system?

Friend...don't choose to live under a rock. Pretty much everybody except those who have looked with care at moderate(d) Islam think the worst about Islam- atheists, liberal Christians, Confessional Protestants, Catholic Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Agnostics, Followers of Jedi or whatever...across the board many if not most people think Islam is completely whacko and a backward, very human pre-medieval religion of brute force and oppression.

This, believe it or not, is not the fault of those coming to that conclusion about your religion. It's the fault of the criminals who do atrocities in the name of Islam. Look to your own company before blaming the outsiders.

Jesus said "...how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." (Matt 7:4,5) This is wisdom.

 

[ContraMundum]

What I do not see is calls for Muslims to attack and conquer non-Muslims who are not harming them. I also do not see any calls for terrorism against civilians.

The problem with this is that, as we now know and see so regularly, many Muslims play the victim card for too often. To some Muslims, everyone else is always harming them.

Economy no good in Afghanistan? Bomb America. Kill lots of civilians and target them because in your messed up mind "they did it to us", which is complete manure.

Things not working in your country? Bomb the Jews. After all, they own all the banks and if it wasn't for them, you'd be wealthy.

Have you not watched the news lately? Is it fair to dismiss all the news that shows crimes done in the "name of Islam" because there are so many and the good news from Islam is not being shown? Isn't it wise to show the things that harm people, and rather than minimise them to be politically correct to bring them out in the open so that they can be seen for what they are?

Sure- I'd like to see more "good" news from Islam, but I honestly don't think there would be much response. Why? No one cares about good religion, only bad. Example: Christians have been feeding, clothing, helping, counselling and generally trying to do good to others for centuries, (especially since the advent of Methodism) and that rarely makes the news. However, if one minister gets caught doing something wrong, the news gobbles it up and spreads it around. Makes us all look bad. Still, not a lot of murder going on in the name of other religions apart from Islam, so that does look bad on its report card at the moment.

 

[smaneck]

Yet Muslims are more outspoken in condemning Israel and the US than Indonesia. How many posts do see on this forum by Muslims condemning Israeli and American war crimes? How many posts do we see by Muslims condemning Indonesian war crimes?

Obviously people (whether Christian, Muslim or whatever) tend to focus on the issues that most concern them. Right or wrong the world as a whole has not been terribly concerned with West Papua. As you yourself point out with your links to al-Jazeera, the media in the Islamic world *is* reporting on this more than anyone else.

In any case, I do admire your commitment to exposing social injustice wherever it occurs.

 

[smaneck]

The problem with this is that, as we now know and see so regularly, many Muslims play the victim card for too often. To some Muslims, everyone else is always harming them.

Economy no good in Afghanistan? Bomb America.

Excuse me, but the Afghans didn't bomb America, al-Qaeda did. It is rather doubtful whether the Taliban even knew what al-Qaeda was up to. We attacked them ostensibly because the Taliban didn't hand over the leaders of al-Qaeda. It is doubtful they could have. How long did it take us to find them?

Things not working in your country? Bomb the Jews. After all, they own all the banks and if it wasn't for them, you'd be wealthy.

I seem to recall Christians doing more along those lines, at least historically.

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

Economy no good in Afghanistan? Bomb America. Kill lots of civilians and target them because in your messed up mind "they did it to us", which is complete manure.

Please quote your source, in regards to the Afghanis bombing the US? I'd like read about this

 

[TG123]

Please quote your source, in regards to the Afghanis bombing the US? I'd like read about this

You can't find any, because they aren't. But some people are not deterred by silly things like facts and evidence, when making things up is so much more fun.

 

[ContraMundum]

Excuse me, but the Afghans didn't bomb America, al-Qaeda did. It is rather doubtful whether the Taliban even knew what al-Qaeda was up to. We attacked them ostensibly because the Taliban didn't hand over the leaders of al-Qaeda. It is doubtful they could have. How long did it take us to find them?

Please quote your source, in regards to the Afghanis bombing the US? I'd like read about this

You can't find any, because they aren't. But some people are not deterred by silly things like facts and evidence, when making things up is so much more fun.

Put on your thinking caps, folks, if you haven't already sacrificed them on the altar of left-wingness.

You guys are dreaming. Al-Qaeda is an organisation, not a country. Agreed? However, its members are recruited from varying countries, and in 2001, the membership was heavily Afghani. Al-Qaeda (Muslim- HQ in Afghanistan) bombed the US. Agreed? It's base was in and much of its membership came from Afghanistan. How was Al-Qaeda so succesful in recruiting Afghanis and getting them behind the plan to? By blaming the US and its foreign policies for the woes of Afghanistan (and everyone else). From Afghanistan, with support and planning from locals, Al-Qaeda bombed civilians in the US.

So- I re-state my point. Ecomony no good in Afghanistan? Al-Qaeda blames the US, Afghans join A-Q. Bomb the US.

That's exactly how it works.

 

[TG123]

Put on your thinking caps, folks, if you haven't already sacrificed them on the altar of left-wingness.

You guys are dreaming. Al-Qaeda is an organisation, not a country. Agreed? However, its members are recruited from varying countries, and in 2001, the membership was heavily Afghani. Al-Qaeda (Muslim- HQ in Afghanistan) bombed the US. Agreed? It's base was in and much of its membership came from Afghanistan. How was Al-Qaeda so succesful in recruiting Afghanis and getting them behind the plan to? By blaming the US and its foreign policies for the woes of Afghanistan (and everyone else). From Afghanistan, with support and planning from locals, Al-Qaeda bombed civilians in the US.

So- I re-state my point. Ecomony no good in Afghanistan? Al-Qaeda blames the US, Afghans join A-Q. Bomb the US.

That's exactly how it works.

Sorry, I don't go to left wing altars. Do you go to conservative ones?

The 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudi, with 2 from UAE, 1 from Lebanon, and 1 from Egypt. Bin Laden was Saudi. Zawahiri is Egyptian. They were hiding in Afghanistan, but neither the attackers or their leaders were Afghans.

What proof do you have that Afghan locals helped plan 9/11? I doubt if many of them could locate New York on a map... kind of like asking the average American to find Rawalpindi on a map.

Any evidence you have that Afghan locals or even the Taleban helped plan 9/11 would be really appreciated. Thanks so much.

 

[smaneck]

Put on your thinking caps, folks, if you haven't already sacrificed them on the altar of left-wingness.

Nope, just the altar of historical accuracy to which I'm rather attached.

You guys are dreaming. Al-Qaeda is an organisation, not a country. Agreed?

Correct.

However, its members are recruited from varying countries, and in 2001, the membership was heavily Afghani. Al-Qaeda (Muslim- HQ in Afghanistan) bombed the US. Agreed?

Not quite. The al-Qaeda leadership was then located in Afghanistan but its membership was largely Arab, not Afghan.

It's base was in and much of its membership came from Afghanistan.

Right on the first point, wrong on the second.

How was Al-Qaeda so succesful in recruiting Afghanis and getting them behind the plan to?

They weren't all that successful in recruiting Afghans (not Afghanis) nor is there any evidence the Afghans knew what they were up to. But they did support al-Qaeda because the Arab members of Al-Qaeda had come to Afghanistan as mujahideen and helped liberate them from Russians. That's why Bin Laden came there.

By blaming the US and its foreign policies for the woes of Afghanistan (and everyone else).

Nope. See above.

From Afghanistan, with support and planning from locals, Al-Qaeda bombed civilians in the US.

And your evidence of 'planning from the locals' is what?

So- I re-state my point. Ecomony no good in Afghanistan? Al-Qaeda blames the US, Afghans join A-Q. Bomb the US.

It might be a good point if it wasn't misinformed and incorrect.

 

[ContraMundum]

Sorry, I don't go to left wing altars. Do you go to conservative ones?

Nope. I'm not right wing.

The 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudi, with 2 from UAE, 1 from Lebanon, and 1 from Egypt. Bin Laden was Saudi. Zawahiri is Egyptian. They were hiding in Afghanistan, but neither the attackers or their leaders were Afghans.

What proof do you have that Afghan locals helped plan 9/11?

You don't know this? I'm not sure whether to say "I'm not surpised" or "I'm surprised". It's not a secret and not hard to find.

Enjoy.

Quick snippet from the above link:

"There are a number of observations which can be made here. Firstly, al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden were not connected to the Taliban when they arrived in Afghanistan in 1996, instead living under the protection of the Jalabad shura until the capture of the city by the Taliban in September of that year.

It was not until he met with the leader of the Taliban Mullah Omar in October in Kandahar, pledging his “unconditional support and financial backing” on condition he was given official Taliban protection (Allen, 2007, pp.292). The personal bond between the two men was sealed when members of their respective families married (Griffiths, 2009, pp. 229)."

I guess CNN don't report everything, eh?

I doubt if many of them could locate New York on a map... kind of like asking the average American to find Rawalpindi on a map.

I know Canadians who can't find Banff on a map.

Don't insult the average Afghan.

 

[ContraMundum]

And your evidence of 'planning from the locals' is what?

"Planning and support" I said. By giving A-Q a base, by sealing mutual support to A-Q by marriage, by giving shelter, food and aid to A-Q while they trained and planned 9/11, Afghanis and their sympathy were and important part of the planning and support network.

Did I say that Afghanis drew the precise plans? Nope. But OBL and A-Q never hid their war plans against the US from anyone. It was public knowledge.

 

[smaneck]

It was not until he met with the leader of the Taliban Mullah Omar in October in Kandahar, pledging his “unconditional support and financial backing” on condition he was given official Taliban protection (Allen, 2007, pp.292). The personal bond between the two men was sealed when members of their respective families married (Griffiths, 2009, pp. 229).".

Sorry but that isn't contrary to any of the points I've made. I didn't say Afghans didn't support al-Qaeda. I said it didn't draw its *membership* mostly from the Afghans as you asserted. I also said there is no evidence that Afghans knew about al-Qaeda's plan to blow up the Twin Towers. There is nothing in this article that provides evidence that they did. Furthermore you stated that al-Qaeda got Afghan support by blaming the US for the state of the Afghan economy. The above paragraph establishes this was not true. They got Afghan support by pledging financial and other assistance. But there is nothing in there that proves Afghans helped plan 9-11 as you asserted. Does the Taliban share the same ideology as al-Qaeda? To a large extent, yes. Both groups are inspired by Mawdudi and Sayyid al-Qutb as the article correctly states and their theology was in turn heavily influenced by Ibn Taymiyya who lived in the 14th century. Doesn't prove Afghans played any part in planning the attack.

Sorry, but you don't have a smoking gun.

And btw, CNN is an idiot when it comes to the Middle East. Almost as bad as Faux News. Al-Jazeera is much more reliable source.

 

[ContraMundum]

Sorry but that isn't contrary to any of the points I've made. I didn't say Afghans didn't support al-Qaeda. I said it didn't draw its *membership* mostly from the Afghans as you asserted.

OK...let's agree on that.

Sorry, but you don't have a smoking gun.

Two smoking towers is all I have.

And btw, CNN is an idiot when it comes to the Middle East.

I wouldn't say idiotic.

Almost as bad as Faux News.

Nothing is as bad as Fox News.

Al-Jazeera is much more reliable source.

Is it really all that reliable?

 

[smaneck]

"Planning and support" I said

I'm just asking for proof of the planning. Should be easy to find if true.

.

By giving A-Q a base, by sealing mutual support to A-Q by marriage, by giving shelter, food and aid to A-Q while they trained and planned 9/11, Afghanis and their sympathy were and important part of the planning and support network.

Sorry, to prove they were part of the planning you have to prove that they knew the plan.

Did I say that Afghanis drew the precise plans?

You said, they helped in the planning. That means they had to know about it.

You said Afghans made up the bulk of al-Qaeda's membership and planned the attack. Now you are trying to backpedal and say something else entirely.

 

[smaneck]

Two smoking towers is all I have.

Two smoking towers does not prove the Afghans did it.

I wouldn't say idiotic.

I did. Sometimes Fared Zakaria gets it right when he isn't taking his cues from Bernard Lewis.

Nothing is as bad as Fox News.

I'm glad we agree on something.

Is it really all that reliable?

Just more reliable than CNN, Faux News and MSNBC. But that's a low bar.

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

However, its members are recruited from varying countries, and in 2001, the membership was heavily Afghani. Al-Qaeda (Muslim- HQ in Afghanistan) bombed the US.

I'm sorry, but no. No Afghanis were part of the crew that hijacked the planes, and flew them into the Twin Towers and Pentagon; every one of them was Saudi. Osama was Saudi, as are most of the other Wahabbis of Al-Qaeda who did the planning of 9/11. The Taliban is Afghani and is made up of only Afghanis; Al-Qaeda is a group made up of numerous splinter cells of groups from different regions. Osama and his LTs hid out in Afghanistan, via the Taliban. However, no Afghani actually attacked the United States or committed any of the bombings. You need to stop making blind accusations and get educated.

 

[TG123]

I'm sorry, but no. No Afghanis were part of the crew that hijacked the planes, and flew them into the Twin Towers and Pentagon; every one of them was Saudi. Osama was Saudi, as are most of the other Wahabbis of Al-Qaeda who did the planning of 9/11. The Taliban is Afghani and is made up of only Afghanis; Al-Qaeda is a group made up of numerous splinter cells of groups from different regions. Osama and his LTs hid out in Afghanistan, via the Taliban. However, no Afghani actually attacked the United States or committed any of the bombings. You need to stop making blind accusations and get educated.

Salaam Alaikum. I agree with everything you've written, particularly the part in bold underlined letters. I would also recommend that you do some research into what is happening in West Papua. If we are serious about condemning injustice and occupation we need to do so anywhere it happens, especially if the perpetrators claim to share our religion.