The Truth about Islam

[smaneck]

The Taliban is Afghani and is made up of only Afghanis;

And Pashtun Pakistanis. In fact, the Taliban in Afghanistan are all Pashtun.

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm sorry, but no. No Afghanis were part of the crew that hijacked the planes, and flew them into the Twin Towers and Pentagon; every one of them was Saudi. Osama was Saudi, as are most of the other Wahabbis of Al-Qaeda who did the planning of 9/11. The Taliban is Afghani and is made up of only Afghanis; Al-Qaeda is a group made up of numerous splinter cells of groups from different regions. Osama and his LTs hid out in Afghanistan, via the Taliban. However, no Afghani actually attacked the United States or committed any of the bombings. You need to stop making blind accusations and get educated.

Read before you post- and answer the posts directly addressed to you as well.

There seems to be a comprehension problem here. The Taliban were complicit in 9/11. Their leader married into Bin Laden's family sealing the alliance well before 9/11. Locals fed, clothed, sheltered and joined both the Taliban and A-Q. I gave a link, loaded with info about this. Did you not see it? I never said a cracker about Afghans attacking the WTC etc.

Furthermore, the Taliban also has had in its membership Americans, Chechens, Pakistanis, Syrians, Bosnians etc etc. Not just Afghans.

You need to stop making false claims and "get educated".

 

[smaneck]

There seems to be a comprehension problem here. The Taliban were complicit in 9/11. Their leader married into Bin Laden's family sealing the alliance well before 9/11. Locals fed, clothed, sheltered and joined both the Taliban and A-Q. I gave a link, loaded with info about this. Did you not see it? I never said a cracker about Afghans attacking the WTC etc.

Sorry, but what would make the Taliban complicit would be evidence that they knew about plans for the attack before they were carried out. The fact they fed, clothed, sheltered and married members of al-Qaeda is not evidence of that.

Furthermore, the Taliban also has had in its membership Americans, Chechens, Pakistanis, Syrians, Bosnians etc etc. Not just Afghans.

Evidence? My understanding is that the Taliban is almost exclusively Pashtun, both in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

 

[Rationalt]

Sorry, but what would make the Taliban complicit would be evidence that they knew about plans for the attack before they were carried out. The fact they fed, clothed, sheltered and married members of al-Qaeda is not evidence of that.

What a strange fellow ?.You don't expect afghani taliban(Not in it's present form) who received USA support before publicly acknoledge their involvement)

I talked to Hakimullah Mehsud last month and he confirmed to me about active taliban involvement in 9/11 by way of logistics.

 

[smaneck]

You don't expect afghani taliban(Not in it's present form) who received USA support before publicly acknoledge their involvement)

I don't expect our intelligence services to rely on public acknowledgements. We just seized a whole boatload of documentation on al-Qaeda when we killed Bin Laden. If there had been a smoking gun we would have found it there.

 

[ContraMundum]

Sorry, but what would make the Taliban complicit would be evidence that they knew about plans for the attack before they were carried out. The fact they fed, clothed, sheltered and married members of al-Qaeda is not evidence of that.

Goodness gracious. Go back and read.

 

[Rationalt]

I don't expect our intelligence services to rely on public acknowledgements. We just seized a whole boatload of documentation on al-Qaeda when we killed Bin Laden. If there had been a smoking gun we would have found it there.

Now you also know how intelligence agencies work ? .

 

[Islam_mulia]

Salaam Alaikum. I agree with everything you've written, particularly the part in bold underlined letters. I would also recommend that you do some research into what is happening in West Papua. If we are serious about condemning injustice and occupation we need to do so anywhere it happens, especially if the perpetrators claim to share our religion.

Indonesia is not an Islamic country. They follow their national principal of Pancasila and the soldiers you claimed to be "perpetrators" could also be Christians. Indonesia has produced some Christian generals, one of them Benny Moerdani, a Catholic, who was infamously implicated in the East Timur situation, a country taht is mainly Catholic.

I know this because I am a Javanese.

 

[smaneck]

I know this because I am a Javanese.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

What is your opinion on West Papua? Should it be given its independence? Why or why not?

 

[TG123]

Indonesia is not an Islamic country. They follow their national principal of Pancasila and the soldiers you claimed to be "perpetrators" could also be Christians. Indonesia has produced some Christian generals, one of them Benny Moerdani, a Catholic, who was infamously implicated in the East Timur situation, a country taht is mainly Catholic.

I know this because I am a Javanese.

Salaam Alaikum and thank you for sharing. Indonesia is not an Islamic country, but its political leaders are Muslims, and most of its people are also Muslim. There is a lot of outrage (and rightly so) among them about the way Israel treats Palestinians, is there as much outrage about the occupation of West Papua.

I agree that the Indonesian soldiers who are perpetrators of the illegal occupation come from all faiths, including Christianity.

Likewise, there are Muslim soldiers in the IDF and US Army who occupy the West Bank and Afghanistan and Iraq. This doesn't make it any less true that Israel is a mostly Jewish country and the US is a mostly Christian country, and they are committing crimes against Muslims.

Muslims who claim to be opposed to human rights violations and terrorism and occupation need to condemn Indonesia's occupation and abuses in West Papua. Christians and Jews need to condemn the Israeli occupation of Palestine and the US and Canadian occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as other occupations that other Christian majority countries are perpetrating.

 

[Islam_mulia]

What is your opinion on West Papua? Should it be given its independence? Why or why not?

I am a Javanese but not an Indonesian. West Papua, like Aceh, are part of the province of Indonesia. The Indonesian government will have difficulty acceding to the requests of independence of many of its provinces. They will not want a Balkanisation in the East.

 

[smaneck]

I am a Javanese but not an Indonesian. West Papua, like Aceh, are part of the province of Indonesia. The Indonesian government will have difficulty acceding to the requests of independence of many of its provinces. They will not want a Balkanisation in the East.

Okay, but I was asking your opinion not that of the Indonesian government. Clearly they don't want West Papua to be independent.

 

[TG123]

I am a Javanese but not an Indonesian. West Papua, like Aceh, are part of the province of Indonesia. The Indonesian government will have difficulty acceding to the requests of independence of many of its provinces. They will not want a Balkanisation in the East.

The Indonesian government forced the people of West Papua to agree to become part of Indonesia.

They forcefully taken over, after 1,026 of their leaders were handpicked and forced to, under the threat of death, to sign a paper agreeing to allow themselves to be annexed. The Indonesian occupation of West Papua involves mass murder, torture, and economic exploitation.

How is it different from what Israel is doing to the Palestinians? Unless, God forbid, you are not opposed to that either... so we won't get a "Balkanisation" between Hamas and Fatah, or between Christians and Muslims, in the West Bank.

I am unaware of the situation in Aceh, so I won't comment on that for now.

Indonesia officially acquired West Papua in 1969, after a sham ballot on independence in which only a handful of the local population were allowed to vote.
The region, which makes up the western part of the island of New Guinea to Australia's north, was once a Dutch colony, but the Netherlands began to prepare for withdrawal in the 1950s.
In 1961, West Papuans held a congress to discuss independence and raised the West Papuan "morning star" flag.
But a newly independent Republic of Indonesia began to assert its claim over the province and a conflict broke out between Indonesia, the Netherlands and the indigenous population.
In 1962, a United Nations-sponsored treaty known as the New York agreement was drawn up to put an end to this territorial battle, and Indonesia was appointed temporary administrator of West Papua from May 1963 – without West Papuan consultation or consent.
A key requirement of the treaty was that all West Papuans be allowed to vote in a referendum on independence, which was to be overseen by the UN.
But when the ballot was held in 1969, it was far from free and fair: the Indonesian military handpicked 1,026 leaders to vote on behalf of the entire population, and threatened to kill them and their families if they voted the wrong way.
In this environment, the outcome of the so-called "Act of Free Choice" was unanimous – and Indonesia's takeover of West Papua was rubber-stamped by the UN.
Almost all indigenous Papuans reject the referendum, dubbing it the "act of no choice", and many continue to demand a real vote on self-determination to this day.
This history forms the basis for West Papuans' call for independence – but it is not just historical injustice that fuels the movement today.
Indigenous West Papuans face daily surveillance and intimidation by the Indonesian military and police, and many report living in constant fear. Thousands have been killed, detained and tortured since 1963.
Those who agitate for independence openly do so at a high personal cost. It is illegal to raise the morning star flag and many of the province's leaders are sitting out long jail terms for peaceful acts of defiance.
The region has an armed movement for independence that has been responsible for the deaths of Indonesian security personnel and actively engages in armed skirmishes, but there is a much larger civil movement that is also heavily suppressed.
In October 2011, the Third Papuan People's Congress, a civilian gathering that addressed issues of self-governance, was violently quashed by Indonesian forces. Six people were killed and dozens more injured.
Indonesia guards its "territorial integrity" jealously. And it's no surprise – the massive Freeport McMoran gold and copper mine in West Papua is one of the country's largest taxpayers.
For its part, Indonesia argues that since West Papua was once a part of the Dutch East Indies, it should also be part of today's independent Indonesian Republic.
Both major Australian political parties support them in this stance.
Indonesia is seen as an important political ally for Australia, and politicians from both sides are loth to antagonise their Indonesian counterparts. Australia maintains close ties with the Indonesian military. It also provides training and funding for its counter-terror police unit, Detachment 88, which has been involved in recent crackdowns on the independence movement.
But Australia is home to a significant West Papuan community and a large network of supporters of West Papuan independence. The West Papuan Freedom Flotilla is the latest in a long history of co-operation between activists from the two countries.


The West Papuan independence movement - a history | World news | theguardian.com

 

[ContraMundum]

Indonesia is not an Islamic country.

I've spent as lot of time there. It's about as Islamic as the US is Christian. A lot of people like to label countries by the majority religion, not by its governing laws or polity. Some Indonesians I know do regard it as "Islamic" but only in a general sense.

 

[smaneck]

I've spent as lot of time there. It's about as Islamic as the US is Christian. A lot of people like to label countries by the majority religion, not by its governing laws or polity. Some Indonesians I know do regard it as "Islamic" but only in a general sense.

Unfortunately a Salafi mentality appear to have taken hold in recent years as the following article indicates:

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1465/bahai/

 

[ContraMundum]

Unfortunately a Salafi mentality appear to have taken hold in recent years as the following article indicates:

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1465/bahai/

That's a depressing link!

I always try not to mention the Bali bombings, but this does form part of a sad puzzle.

 

[smaneck]

That's a depressing link!

Yeah, that article speaks for itself.

It isn't even necessary to tell the Baha'i side of the story.

Did you see the post I made about blood libel?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7791558-9/#post64697182

 

[All Englands Skies]

That issue of West Papua is on both sides of the house. The occupation of West Papua is no different, than the occupation of Northern Ireland and Scotland by the British; it is no different than that of Hawaii as well. I spoke about this in the thread as well. Anyone killing an innocent, regardless of how you feel personally about that individual, is wrong in Islam period. That's all I'm going to say about that matter.

Scotland occupied?

And you talk about people being ignorant over Islam, yet make the baseless claim Scotland is "Occupied by the British", Scotland is "British", the others are English, Welsh and also Northern Ireland are considered British, I'd have let you off on the "Occupying Northern Ireland" bit, but if your going to say "Britain occupies Scotland", you can think again.

Do as I say, not as I do again, huh, Braveheart?

You obviously aint got a clue about British history and the acts of union, yet you're complaining about people talking out of there a*se's about stuff they dont understand.

bloody hypocrite.

You might have converted to Islam, yet you still come out with the misguided "American view" of the situation of Scotland and Northern Ireland, but thats okay, its okay when you're ignorant to the facts

 

[All Englands Skies]

You need to stop making blind accusations and get educated.

After your comments about "Britain occupying Scotland", you're in need yourself it seems.....

You cant honestly live your life being this blatently hypocritical can you?

Same as the threads you start, stereotyping and trashing Christianity and tell us what we think, all while moaning about you being stereotyped and trashed by Christians.

I dont know why people even entertain you're hypocrisy. On this thread I've seen Muslims and even pagans bloody saying how bad Christians are in the way they view them, all with a veneer that they're somehow perfect and incapable of the same bias attitudes towards Christians.

waste of time, the lot of you, what you want is Christians to grovel to you and "lose face", as thats the only way a Christian "proves hes tolerant", by sucking up to a bunch of non-Christian hypocrites who pretend they're perfect.

Atheists, pagans and Muslims, saying how bad we are to them?, its a joke, especially with there own blood soaked hands.