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That does not say anything about a change from Sabbath to Sunday worship.mythbuster said:Hebrews 4:1-11 shows that we should be diligent to enter His rest, and even have entered into His rest by believing. So for me at least this shows that the New Testament rest is more than the Old Testament rule keeping of the Sabbath. Also in Hebrews 9 we see the difference between the old ways and the new ways, where for sure we must agree that Christ is the NT reality of the OT priesthood.
The devil is doing his best to destroy both.snoopyloopysk8a said:No, the Sabbath was never changed from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath is still Saturday, and always will be. The Sabbath was one of the two institutions in the Garden of Eden at the end of Creation Week, marriage being the other one.
mythbuster said:Line 1: Yes
Two carraige returns later. Yes we do not not work from Friday to Saturday night forever.
ASIDE: I was asked this Sabbath question on my last trip to Israel.
Is it OK to move a table on the Sabbath? Well it depends, if the table is on dirt then it would be considered a plow.
Leviticus 23
1 YHWH spoke to Moses, saying, 2 Speak to the children of Israel, and tell them, The set feasts of YHWH, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my set feasts:
3 Six days shall work be done: but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; you shall do no manner of work. It is a Sabbath to YHWH in all your dwellings.
Brother Owl said:It is my conclusion that keeping the Sabbath is for Israel as a remembrance of what He did for Israel in delivering them from Egypt as the above text says.
There is of course nothing wrong with keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest and worship. But it is wrong to teach this commandment carries over and or is taught as a doctrine of the New Covenant. For it is not once mentioned in the NT as part of the teaching of the apostles.
Isaiah 56
1 Thus says YHWH, Keep you justice, and do righteousness; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast; who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the foreigner, who has joined himself to YHWH ((That's us!)), speak, saying, "YHWH will surely separate me from his people!"; neither let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree!" 4 For thus says YHWH of the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant: 5 To them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to YHWH ((That's us!)), to minister to him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant; 7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. 8 The Lord YHWH, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, Yet will I gather others to him, besides his own who are gathered.
Brother Owl said:The old covenant was out tutor we now have a better covenant which nowhere teaches that we are to keep a Seventh Day Sabbath. As I said before there is certainly nothing wrong with doing so and it may well have its benefits as in my opinion following old testament dietary restrictions are beneficial however, no longer mandatory for those walking in the liberty of Christ.
If you follow the law you must keep the whole law, we are not under the law but under Grace and under Christ who is the Word dwelling in us and the law we now follow is the law written on our hearts and not those written on tables of stone.
Brother Owl said:2Cr 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Cr 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:
2Cr 3:8
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Cr 3:9
For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Cr 3:10
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Cr 3:11
For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.
2Cr 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Cr 3:13
And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Cr 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2Cr 3:15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cr 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cr 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Please read the above text: Paul clearly says the old covenant including the commandments written in stone were part of the ministration of death:
2Cr 3:7 "But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:"
The old covenant was the MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION and the new covenant is the MINISTRATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
The old is DONE AWAY the new REMAINS
2nd Corinthians 1
17 When I therefore was thus determined, did I show fickleness? Or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be the Yes, yes and the No, no? 18 But as God is faithful, our word toward you was not Yes and no. 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, by me, Silvanus, and Timothy, was not Yes and no, but in him is Yes. 20 For however many are the promises of God, in him is the Yes. Therefore also through him is the Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now he who establishes us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God; 22 who also sealed us, and gave us the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts. 23 But I call God for a witness to my soul, that I didnt come to Corinth to spare you. 24 Not that we have lordship over your faith, but are fellow workers with you for your joy. For you stand firm in faith.
2nd Corinthians 6[/b]
14 Dont be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity (grk. /anomia/ "without or against THE LAW (OF MOSES)")? Or what communion has light with darkness? 15 What agreement has Christ with Belial? Or what portion has a believer with an unbeliever?
Matthew 5
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, Lord, Lord, didnt we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works? 23 Then I will tell them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.
Brother Owl said:I'm not going to respond to your every point: I think your conclusions are incorrect. It seems to me that if we're still under the law then the whole law still applies and we ought to put to death all those who break the Sabbath who are in the congregation of God.
God's Holy Angels ministered death yet they are still Holy.
Paul said when I was with the lawless I lived AS one without the law and when I was with Jews I lived like a Jew... this from memory.
And I never drew any conclusion re: Paul other than he was an Apostle to the gentiles and a great man of God. I never thought he was homosexual, or a woman hater, or any of the other things you brought up, it never crossed my mind once till you said. And having heard it, it sounds absurd.
If there is no New Covenant than all we have is the law and the prophets. But drawing from the New Covenant we can not create a doctrine of keeping Sabbath.
I'll try to respond more later today but may not have time, we're having "open house" (house for sale) today. Anyone in the market?
God Bless You!
Mr Thadster: Sorry I was not more clear but please note the double negative. In other words to not not work is to work, sorry. I do not keep the OT law.mythbuster said:Line 1: Yes
Two carraige returns later. Yes we do not not work from Friday to Saturday night forever.
shalom
The Thadman said:Then you need to harmonize the first 3/4ths of Isaiah 56. Anyone who has joined themselves to YHWH is expected to keep the Sabbath (and all that it entails) among other things:
Peace!
-Steve-o
No, the Sabbath was not given for the Children of Israel for them to remember their dliverance from bondage (Egypt). The Passover was given to them to remember how God delivered them from Egypt.Brother Owl said:Isaiah was speaking to Israel and yes all those who joined Israel converted to Judaism, this was during the Old Covenant and keeping the Sabbath was still enforce along with the penalty of death for violation of the Sabbath.
This does not address the point I tried to bring up which is God said the Jews were to keep the Sabbath as a remembrance of the work that He did in delivering them from Egypt. My reason for this point was to illustrate it was unique to the Jew and of course all those who converted to Judaism during the Old Covenant period.
Read the following:
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
By reading the above text we see that breaking the commandment of honoring your father and mother was punishable by death which punishment was also the commandment of God. In the New Covenant we are not bound to kill those who break this law and clearly to kill those who broke this law was also a commandment. If we are still under the law then we need to mete out punishment according to the dictates of the law. But we see that Jesus changed the law:
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
We are no longer to enforce the punishments required of the law: these punishments were also part of the commandments. If we are still under the law then we also must mete out the required punishments if we do not we are BREAKING THE LAW for the Old Covenant REQUIRED IT.
Symes said:No, the Sabbath was not given for the Children of Israel for them to remember their dliverance from bondage (Egypt). The Passover was given to them to remember how God delivered them from Egypt.
The Sabbath was given at Creation, a long time before Egypt.Brother Owl said:Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
The above text says otherwise, does it not?
God Bless!
mythbuster said:Mr Thadster: Sorry I was not more clear but please note the double negative. In other words to not not work is to work, sorry. I do not keep the OT law.
Brother Owl said:Isaiah was speaking to Israel and yes all those who joined Israel converted to Judaism, this was during the Old Covenant and keeping the Sabbath was still enforce along with the penalty of death for violation of the Sabbath.
This does not address the point I tried to bring up which is God said the Jews were to keep the Sabbath as a remembrance of the work that He did in delivering them from Egypt. My reason for this point was to illustrate it was unique to the Jew and of course all those who converted to Judaism during the Old Covenant period.
Read the following:
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
By reading the above text we see that breaking the commandment of honoring your father and mother was punishable by death which punishment was also the commandment of God. In the New Covenant we are not bound to kill those who break this law and clearly to kill those who broke this law was also a commandment. If we are still under the law then we need to mete out punishment according to the dictates of the law. But we see that Jesus changed the law:
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
We are no longer to enforce the punishments required of the law: these punishments were also part of the commandments. If we are still under the law then we also must mete out the required punishments if we do not we are BREAKING THE LAW for the Old Covenant REQUIRED IT.
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