The True Church

[W2L]

Please look into the Catholic Church. I swear by God Himself that wherein Salvation lies soley.

Does that mean us Protestants are doomed?

 

[The Sniper]

Does that mean us Protestants are doomed?

Seek for the true Faith. If you are of good will God will see that and work from there. If you truly want the truth and seek it, you are not doomed as a Protestant. Please look into Catholic teachings.

 

[W2L]

Seek for the true Faith. If you are of good will God will see that and work from there. If you truly want the truth and seek it, you are not doomed as a Protestant. Please look into Catholic teachings.

No thank you. Im content as a protestant, i was just asking a question.

 

[Old Moses]

There has been a lot of talk on these forums as to who/what constitutes the true Church of Christ... some say the mother Church because of her age and supposed apostolic connection. Others say God's people, wherever they are found. Some say the Protestants, the Orthodox, the Catholic, the Mormons (actually, not many say this).

So, this got me to thinking about what God's church would look like in terms of it's "appearance" or the impression it gives. If Christ's life and the lives of the apostles are our examples, lets see how we measure up...

I know it has bothered me for a while now, ministers that wear expensive business suits with nice watches and other bling.. What does that mode of dress represent to me about Christ's character and ministry? I have noticed that in churches where the pastor is a fashion horse, the congregation seems to be concerned with their appearance as well. Is this the message that should be conveyed?

Then there is the robes/gowns/collars etc, worn by some denom's clergy... while this better differentiates the laity from the officers of the church, is this what Jesus and the disciples gave by way of example? Is this an attempt to copy the religious garments that the Jewish priests were commanded to wear? The garments that Christ now wears as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary? Are we saying that Christ's priesthood is not sufficient and must be replicated on earth. What about the admonition that we (men) are priests of our homes? Are we expected to wear special clothing for this role? Where does the pomp and pageantry of some churches come from? Did Jesus teach us these things?

What are some of your thoughts on the way we present our "men of God" and our method of worship? Is it acceptable to wear everyday clothes to worship God or do we have to participate in the fashion show at church?

IMO it is not how we dress that shows the true Christian, it is how we behave and how much we have works of faith and not just go to a Church that 'tickles our ears'.
The Catholic Pope has said that we should not bog our minds down with scripture but should rely on tradition instead.
Should this be the way of the true Christian? Jesus was the perfect Christian, how far removed are we from that perfection, and how far are we going to get away from that perfection and the teachings of Jesus and his true followers.
I think is is correct to believe that Jesus was in full agreement of everything written in the Bible, after all he used to quote from the old scriptures and the words of the prophets in his ministry. So the things put down in the Christian Greek Scriptures would apply to all those that pursued the course of Christianity.
May I be so bold as to reiterate some of those things that Jesus and his followers were told were not a sign of being a Christian.
Apart for the 10 commandments the 11th Commandment still applies, but the Christian Greek scriptures expands on things such as Sexual immorality which includes homosexual behavior, adultery, inappropriate contentography, child abuse and etc.
The Bible condemns that act of homosexuality, it does not condemn the homosexual and the true Christian is advised to be of the same mind today.
Divorce of frivolous reasons, Idolatry, greed and gambling and adultery are all described as being Christian.
So what I am saying is this, don't look at how a man dresses, look deeper at their way of being Christian.
The Bible does not approve of the "fine raiment, the scarlet and purple and the gold" of some Churches, dressing like the Pharisees of Jesus' time who were ones that kept to the law and maintained special treatment by the "lowly ones".

 

[Open Heart]

The Catholic Pope has said that we should not bog our minds down with scripture but should rely on tradition instead.

Can you supply us with the document or a record of the incident where he said this?

 

[Old Moses]

Can you supply us with the document or a record of the incident where he said this?

Unfortunately I can not supply conclusive proof of that statement as it was on a news item and quickly passed over. The Pope said something along the lines of "We can't be bothered with all the things in the Bible, we have our long traditions to rely upon."

Maybe you could do a bit of research into this matter: He also said, one time to a little girl that asked him "....Why are children treated so badly in the world?" His answer, "The are many things we don't know the answer to, my child." This is from the current Pope. I think you can find that on Utube still.

It would be better not to start me on the Catholic Church and its 240 denominations.

I see that the highest ranked Catholic in Australia, George Pell, is now to be charged, by police in Victoria, with child sexual abuse leading back to the 70s.

But back to traditions: Are not Xmas and Easter and lent and all other special holidays all traditions? Can you show me where the Christian Bible entertains the application of these events?

 

[Root of Jesse]

IMO it is not how we dress that shows the true Christian, it is how we behave and how much we have works of faith and not just go to a Church that 'tickles our ears'.
The Catholic Pope has said that we should not bog our minds down with scripture but should rely on tradition instead.

It helps to provide a reference where he said that...

Should this be the way of the true Christian? Jesus was the perfect Christian, how far removed are we from that perfection, and how far are we going to get away from that perfection and the teachings of Jesus and his true followers.
I think is is correct to believe that Jesus was in full agreement of everything written in the Bible, after all he used to quote from the old scriptures and the words of the prophets in his ministry. So the things put down in the Christian Greek Scriptures would apply to all those that pursued the course of Christianity.
May I be so bold as to reiterate some of those things that Jesus and his followers were told were not a sign of being a Christian.
Apart for the 10 commandments the 11th Commandment still applies, but the Christian Greek scriptures expands on things such as Sexual immorality which includes homosexual behavior, adultery, inappropriate contentography, child abuse and etc.
The Bible condemns that act of homosexuality, it does not condemn the homosexual and the true Christian is advised to be of the same mind today.
Divorce of frivolous reasons, Idolatry, greed and gambling and adultery are all described as being Christian.
So what I am saying is this, don't look at how a man dresses, look deeper at their way of being Christian.
The Bible does not approve of the "fine raiment, the scarlet and purple and the gold" of some Churches, dressing like the Pharisees of Jesus' time who were ones that kept to the law and maintained special treatment by the "lowly ones".

Agree with your last statement. But the Catholic Church believes Scripture and Sacred Tradition are equally the Word of God, along with the Magisterium.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Unfortunately I can not supply conclusive proof of that statement as it was on a news item and quickly passed over. The Pope said something along the lines of "We can't be bothered with all the things in the Bible, we have our long traditions to rely upon."

Maybe you could do a bit of research into this matter: He also said, one time to a little girl that asked him "....Why are children treated so badly in the world?" His answer, "The are many things we don't know the answer to, my child." This is from the current Pope. I think you can find that on Utube still.

It would be better not to start me on the Catholic Church and its 240 denominations.

Name them, please?

I see that the highest ranked Catholic in Australia, George Pell, is now to be charged, by police in Victoria, with child sexual abuse leading back to the 70s.

What does this prove, other than that men are sinners?

But back to traditions: Are not Xmas and Easter and lent and all other special holidays all traditions? Can you show me where the Christian Bible entertains the application of these events?

The birth of Christ = Christmas, the Passion, death and resurrection = Easter, and the 40 days in the dessert = Lent. You're welcome.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But back to traditions

YHWH says "Back to the Bible"
i.e. follow Jesus...

He washes away all those sins, when people are willing, and turn to Him.

 

[Old Moses]

Name them, please?What does this prove, other than that men are sinners?
The birth of Christ = Christmas, the Passion, death and resurrection = Easter, and the 40 days in the dessert = Lent. You're welcome.

That is not what I meant: Xmas 25th December a Babylonian celebration. Easter, the word taken from a pagan goddess and is celebrated with the easter bunny, a sign of fertility, these things were made traditions for the Holy Roman Church when the pagan Constantine combined Babylonian pagan rituals with the rising of the Catholic Church.
You have the Papal Palace, Papal comes from Papist and a papist is a Babylonian, Babylon was the world center of paganism in the days of the waning power of the Roman world empire.
This is the tradition I talk of...No matter what colour you paint an egg it is still an egg.
The Catholic Encyclopedic exposes the Catholic Church more than any other documentation.

 

[Open Heart]

Unfortunately I can not supply conclusive proof of that statement as it was on a news item and quickly passed over. The Pope said something along the lines of "We can't be bothered with all the things in the Bible, we have our long traditions to rely upon."

I just don't believe it, and as you have said, you cannot provide any evidence.

Maybe you could do a bit of research into this matter: He also said, one time to a little girl that asked him "....Why are children treated so badly in the world?" His answer, "The are many things we don't know the answer to, my child." This is from the current Pope. I think you can find that on Utube still.

This I believe, because of course it is true: we don't know why God allows the suffering of the innocent. If ever God was going to say why, it would have been to Job, but God never tells Job why either.

It would be better not to start me on the Catholic Church and its 240 denominations.

We don't have denominations, we have rites, which are based on differences of liturgy, not beliefs, since we all share the same catechism. And there certainly aren't 240 different rites. It is silly to count different religious groups such as the KOC or the Carmelites as different denominations. That's like counting Promise Keepers or Campus Crusade as Protestant denominations.

I see that the highest ranked Catholic in Australia, George Pell, is now to be charged, by police in Victoria, with child sexual abuse leading back to the 70s.

Good. It's about time.

But back to traditions: Are not Xmas and Easter and lent and all other special holidays all traditions? Can you show me where the Christian Bible entertains the application of these events?

We Catholics are not sola Scriptura. We believe in the authority of the Church as well as the authority of the Bible. The Church has the authority to set up feast days. Nothing wrong with celebrating the nativity or resurrection. Sola Scriptura, on the other hand, is a non-Biblical tradition of Protestantism.

 

[prodromos]

That is not what I meant: Xmas 25th December a Babylonian celebration.

I don’t celebrate any Babylonian festival on December 25, I celebrate the birth of Christ, when angels announced to the shepherds that God was born in Bethlehem. December 25 was chosen because it is 9 months after the feast day where we celebrate the Archangel Gabriel announcing to Mary that she would conceive.

Easter, the word taken from a pagan goddess

"Easter" is from the Old Teutonic German word for "resurrection". There is next to no evidence that there was ever a pagan goddess named Eostre. Its beside the point anyway, since the vast majority of the world's Catholics don't speak English or German so they call the feast day Pascha.

and is celebrated with the easter bunny, a sign of fertility, these things were made traditions for the Holy Roman Church when the pagan Constantine combined Babylonian pagan rituals with the rising of the Catholic Church.

I'm not Catholic, but I don’t believe bunnies have ever been a part of the Catholic Church's celebration of the death and resurrection of our Lord. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

[Old Moses]

I just don't believe it, and as you have said, you cannot provide any evidence.

This I believe, because of course it is true: we don't know why God allows the suffering of the innocent. If ever God was going to say why, it would have been to Job, but God never tells Job why either.

We don't have denominations, we have rites, which are based on differences of liturgy, not beliefs, since we all share the same catechism. And there certainly aren't 240 different rites. It is silly to count different religious groups such as the KOC or the Carmelites as different denominations. That's like counting Promise Keepers or Campus Crusade as Protestant denominations.

Good. It's about time.

We Catholics are not sola Scriptura. We believe in the authority of the Church as well as the authority of the Bible. The Church has the authority to set up feast days. Nothing wrong with celebrating the nativity or resurrection. Sola Scriptura, on the other hand, is a non-Biblical tradition of Protestantism.

I wont get into a deep discussion on Catholicism as it will only be an argument and I would suggest you are as convinced of your beliefs as I am of mine; however I must ask why you do not know why God is allowing all the bad things that are going on in the world today.
Cast you thoughts back to the garden of Eden when Adam decided that he could run his life without God's assistance. Satan was such a good con artist that he had Adam and Eve convinced that they would become as gods, and so began the downfall of the human race.
Now, God could have wiped out Satan and the first humans and started again, but there was a challenge, a challenge of sovereignty between Satan and the Creator.
Of course, Adam and Eve, for their part in the first lie,the lie that man would have immortality even if he did die, this pair died and will never be seen again. They returned to the dust from which they were made.
What did Solomon say about the dead?.... After Solomon observed that the living know that they will die, he wrote: “But the dead know nothing at all.” He then enlarged on that basic truth by saying that the dead can neither love nor hate and that “there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave.” (Read Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.) Similarly, Psalm 146:4 says that when a man dies, “his thoughts perish.”

Death is like a candle going out...Where does the flame go? It goes nowhere, it just goes out.

With the challenge God allowed Satan and mankind to try to prove that they could run their lives better than God could, and what have we seen? A continued deterioration in life as far as age, health, morals, aspirations of utopia which man seeks in various ways, but never attaining the desired or lied about state that Satan tried to put over in the Garden of Eden.
God has allowed the world to be inconstant trouble, caused by Satan and his hoard of evil angels, which is accelerating out of control in these days, so God is going to step in and put a stop to the rot.
This is all explained in the Bible, and the Bible is the only workshop manual that one can use for Christianity and never man designed traditions.
And this: Would a God that could not hate or act in an evil manner create a Hell, as Satan could not create anything, so that He, God, could give over the baddies to his #1 enemy, Satan to torture for all eternity....Surely this is not you logic.

 

[prodromos]

What did Solomon say about the dead?.... After Solomon observed that the living know that they will die, he wrote: “But the dead know nothing at all.” He then enlarged on that basic truth by saying that the dead can neither love nor hate and that “there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave.” (Read Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.) Similarly, Psalm 146:4 says that when a man dies, “his thoughts perish.”

Luke 9:29-31
I guess Moses didn't get the memo, besides which, death has been destroyed by Christ's rising from the dead, so whatever Solomon's understanding was at the time he wrote Ecclesiastes, it has no bearing on Christians from the time of Acts onward.

 

[Old Moses]

Luke 9:29-31
I guess Moses didn't get the memo, besides which, death has been destroyed by Christ's rising from the dead, so whatever Solomon's understanding was at the time he wrote Ecclesiastes, it has no bearing on Christians from the time of Acts onward.

That is an assumption, there is no proof in the Bible that what you say is true. I presume, my assumption, that you believe that what Solomon said was only apparent for his time. Please, where is the Bible example that this changed.

Death was not destroyed by Jesus' sacrifice, it was a sacrifice for the sins of ALL mankind. It was obvious after Jesus died and was resurrected that mankind still died, and those deaths were no different to the ones of the era before Jesus.

Look to the example with Lazarus, he died, was dead for four days. He would have started to decay in that time but in a prophetic and wonderful loving act, Jesus brought him back from his condition of death.
Did Lazarus start to tell everyone how wonderful heaven was, or how great it was in the land of the dead, talking ad mixing with the ones that had died before him? NO! he had no memory of his death, just as Solomon said.

I think that the grasping to immorality is fraught with sadness. Jesus was not immortal until he was murdered, the angels are not immortal, Thankfully, Satan and his evil followers are not immortal, it is only God, the creator that has that one position, which he has now given to some selected few.

If Jesus had been immortal, he could not have been killed and thus, his sacrifice would have been a hoax.

 

[Old Moses]

I don’t celebrate any Babylonian festival on December 25, I celebrate the birth of Christ, when angels announced to the shepherds that God was born in Bethlehem. December 25 was chosen because it is 9 months after the feast day where we celebrate the Archangel Gabriel announcing to Mary that she would conceive.

Tradition, Not scriptural.

"Easter" is from the Old Teutonic German word for "resurrection". There is next to no evidence that there was ever a pagan goddess named Eostre. Its beside the point anyway, since the vast majority of the world's Catholics don't speak English or German so they call the feast day Pascha.

Incorrect.

I'm not Catholic, but I don’t believe bunnies have ever been a part of the Catholic Church's celebration of the death and resurrection of our Lord. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Does the Catholic Church try to stop the sale of the Easter bunny, or any of the profit making exercises related to the Easter fun and games. What churches condemn the easter egg hunt, and even not conduct such events as an attraction to the church. I have seen children with bunny ears on their heads being led into many a church by their parents, haven't you?

If Jesus Christianity was perfect, how far from perfect are those that inculcate pagan rites into their worship.

Try this for contradiction of Scripture in the place of tradition: Mary, the mother of Jesus is supposed to have entered the heavenly realm in the earthly physical state, how does this stand with this scripture:
“flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
—1Co 15:50-54.

 

[Old Moses]

Back to the pagan rites and the acceptance by Christendom: Take your own birthday: have people, for the sake of their convenience, change it to a few months off the actual date, a date that coincides with some pagan ritual. You, as a Christian, are not into paganism, but people say that doesn't matter, lets us get a Xmas tree (Swedish folk lore) and some mistletoe, More from the Norsmen, we will also have a bacchanalian feast and put up a little show that has 3 wise men, of course there is no mention in the Bible how many of these men were, but it does say that they were Maggi or magic practicing priests who were on a mission to find Jesus so that Herod could have him killed. Also, we wont worry about the fact that by the time that the Maggi got to Jesus he was in the house and about 2 years old, admittedly Joseph and Mary could cash in the presents that the Maggi brought so that they could do a quick exodus to Egypt.
We wont worry about the shepherds minding their flock at night, outside, in December, when it was freezing temperatures on a constant basis. Mere detail.

Your own birthday celebrants take the position of changing your birthday and the events to suit something else that has no relation to the truth, something like the changes mentioned above.....Will you accept that change as a true representation of your date of birth.

Why is there not evidence of the Christian followers of Jesus celebrating his birthday for the next 100 years of recorded Christianity before the onset of the "Dark Ages"?

Tradition is more important than scriptural evidence...As the Pope said.

AND: What does Nisan 14 mean to you?

 

[prodromos]

That is an assumption, there is no proof in the Bible that what you say is true. I presume, my assumption, that you believe that what Solomon said was only apparent for his time. Please, where is the Bible example that this changed

You go by the name of Moses yet you obviously didn't look up the verse I posted. Let me put it here to save you the effort.

And as he was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli′jah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.​

According to your interpretation of Ecclesiastes, Moses could not have possibly been having that conversation with Jesus, but since Scripture plainly states that he was, we can safely assume your interpretation is off.

In 1Cor 15, Paul says the following :

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is thy victory?
O death, where is thy sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ​

and in Philippians 1 he states:

If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.​

If the dead know nothing, why would Paul desire to die?

In Rev 6 we read the following:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”​

They certainly don't fit your understanding of Ecclesiastes either. I also wonder how you square your interpretation with 1 Samuel 28.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That is not what I meant: Xmas 25th December a Babylonian celebration. Easter, the word taken from a pagan goddess and is celebrated with the easter bunny, a sign of fertility, these things were made traditions for the Holy Roman Church when the pagan Constantine combined Babylonian pagan rituals with the rising of the Catholic Church.
You have the Papal Palace, Papal comes from Papist and a papist is a Babylonian, Babylon was the world center of paganism in the days of the waning power of the Roman world empire.
This is the tradition I talk of...No matter what colour you paint an egg it is still an egg.
The Catholic Encyclopedic exposes the Catholic Church more than any other documentation.

So what? My birthday is a certain day and so is the Pope's does that mean it's the same celebration? I think not. We have reason to believe that Christ was born to the world on Dec. 25 based on what the Bible says. Easter is an English word. The Latin word, which is more correct, is Pascha. The Church does not celebrate with the easter bunny, period. Papal, Papist, Pope is Latin/Italian for Papa.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

 

[Open Heart]

And this: Would a God that could not hate or act in an evil manner create a Hell, as Satan could not create anything, so that He, God, could give over the baddies to his #1 enemy, Satan to torture for all eternity....Surely this is not you logic.

I'm not sure why you completely changed the subject. I would rather stay on topic.