The True Church? I'm Disillusioned.

[Rayanne]

Hello. Thank you so much for reading this and offering any insight or help you can. I'm a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy - OCA parish in the Diocese of the South. I've been Orthodox for many years now.

I'm feeling very disillusioned about closed communion and the claims of my church to be "the true Church." I don't see evidence that people in my church are any holier than Christians outside Orthodoxy. I don't see evidence that the grace of God is any more present in my church than in "heretical" churches. I feel like many of our long prayers, traditions, and rituals are largely man-made and could stand to be re-evaluated. I am not sure exactly what Jesus had in mind for Christianity/church, but when I look at the Christian religious landscape, it seems to me to be in shambles. I don't think Orthodoxy is necessarily a "beacon of light" in the midst of the chaos. Orthodoxy is in decline, and ecumenical councils don't happen anymore than make any important decisions that change anything. The plight of the LGBTQ community in the church continues without relief. I don't see why Universalism should be considered to be "formally condemned" when Orthodoxy has such a beautiful strand of Universalism woven throughout some of its saints and church fathers. Why should I believe that Emperor Justinian was inspired by the Holy Spirit when calling the 5th Ecumenical Council and having Origen condemned? How can Orthodox Christians ever be sure that their decisions at councils or otherwise were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit? There is simply no way to ever verify this.

There are no good answers to these questions when I've asked (I'm open to hearing them if there are). I'm sure many people can relate to my disillusionment. If there are no good answers to these questions, then I am not sure where to go from here.

Thanks,

Rayanne

 

[AMM]

I'm not knowledgeable enough to respond to much of this, but if I'm not mistaken - our practice of closed communion is not us saying "we're holier than you, so you can't commune with us"

 

[ArmyMatt]

both universalism and Origen were condemned long before St Justinian.

and closed communion is because we have different beliefs.

 

[icxn]

...
I'm feeling very disillusioned about closed communion and the claims of my church to be "the true Church." I don't see evidence that people in my church are any holier than Christians outside Orthodoxy...

Saint Porphyrios, Saint Paisios, Saint John of San Francisco, Saint Herman of Alaska... to name a few of the recent ones.

 

[dzheremi]

Origen was condemned at different points in his own time by synods in Alexandria and Rome. In his own Alexandrian see, HH St. Demetrios the Vinedresser and HH St. Heraclas both stood against him, perhaps for different reasons than later EO synods did. (The article on his history by RPC Hanson in the Coptic Encyclopedia suggests he was ordained a presbyter while in Palestine without the consultation of his own bishop, and despite his infamous self-mutilation.)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Origen was condemned at different points in his own time by synods in Alexandria and Rome. In his own Alexandrian see, HH St. Demetrios the Vinedresser and HH St. Heraclas both stood against him, perhaps for different reasons than later EO synods did. (The article on his history by RPC Hanson in the Coptic Encyclopedia suggests he was ordained a presbyter while in Palestine without the consultation of his own bishop, and despite his infamous self-mutilation.)

not only that, but he was both excommunicated and condemned. so folks had problems with him long before the 5th Council.

St Vincent of Lerins says that even though Origen's followers exaggerated his errors, that nonetheless his heresy lies with him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hello. Thank you so much for reading this and offering any insight or help you can. I'm a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy - OCA parish in the Diocese of the South. I've been Orthodox for many years now.

I'm feeling very disillusioned about closed communion and the claims of my church to be "the true Church." I don't see evidence that people in my church are any holier than Christians outside Orthodoxy. I don't see evidence that the grace of God is any more present in my church than in "heretical" churches. I feel like many of our long prayers, traditions, and rituals are largely man-made and could stand to be re-evaluated. I am not sure exactly what Jesus had in mind for Christianity/church, but when I look at the Christian religious landscape, it seems to me to be in shambles. I don't think Orthodoxy is necessarily a "beacon of light" in the midst of the chaos. Orthodoxy is in decline, and ecumenical councils don't happen anymore than make any important decisions that change anything. The plight of the LGBTQ community in the church continues without relief. I don't see why Universalism should be considered to be "formally condemned" when Orthodoxy has such a beautiful strand of Universalism woven throughout some of its saints and church fathers. Why should I believe that Emperor Justinian was inspired by the Holy Spirit when calling the 5th Ecumenical Council and having Origen condemned? How can Orthodox Christians ever be sure that their decisions at councils or otherwise were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit? There is simply no way to ever verify this.

There are no good answers to these questions when I've asked (I'm open to hearing them if there are). I'm sure many people can relate to my disillusionment. If there are no good answers to these questions, then I am not sure where to go from here.

Thanks,

Rayanne

No organisation is the true church. The true church is made up of those who have received Jesus Christ as Saviour. Eastern Orthodox believers who believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead are part of the true church, along with similar believers in the other denominations.

But with any church with its policies, rules and regulations, put there in order to ensure that the church services and activities are conducted decently and in order, and to preserve the special character of their particular faith group, it is necessary to ensure that believers who wish to join that faith group, are initiated into it and agree to comply with its polices, rules and procedures. There is nothing wrong with that at all. If I decided to join the Eastern Orthodox church, I would have to provide evidence that I have been baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and would have to submit myself to the "confirmation" or "Christmation" process that is part of that church.

When I changed from a Charismatic to an Anglican church, I had to be confirmed (at the age of 29) before I could be seen as a full member of that church. It didn't change my personal faith in Christ. It is just that I just changed religious "clubs" (I don't mean any disrespect in saying that).

When a person joins a sports or community club or organsation they have to sign a form agreeing to the policies, rules and procedures of that organisation. It is just the same as joining a church.

My view of the church, whatever the denomination, is that the believers in it are the true church, and the organisation is the "scaffolding" to support the faith and fellowship of the believers.

So, there is nothing wrong with being initiated into the Eastern Orthodox church in order to be bonded into it. In fact, it would be the right thing to do. You can still have your faith in Christ and worship Him from your heart through the liturgy. It is not that Eastern Orthodox believers are more "holy" than others. It is that they feel more comfortable in that setting, and feel that this is the way they choose to worship God.

I found when I joined the Anglican church and got to know the people there, that they were just ordinary people who love the Lord, and were just as mad as I was. I have been associated with Baptist and Presbyterian churches over the years and now part of a Methodist/Presbyterian Union church, and in all these settings, the basic character of the people are just the same.

I don't think God is too concerned about the religious label. He looks on the heart, and when He says that your heart is right with Him, His attitude would be: "Worship in the way you feel most comfortable and supported."

If you are worried about whether people are as "holy" as you think they should be, remember what Jesus said to Peter: "What is that to you? Follow Me!"

 

[peregrinus2017]

Wow, I suddenly feel like I'm in general theology.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No organisation is the true church. The true church is made up of those who have received Jesus Christ as Saviour. Eastern Orthodox believers who believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead are part of the true church, along with similar believers in the other denominations.

But with any church with its policies, rules and regulations, put there in order to ensure that the church services and activities are conducted decently and in order, and to preserve the special character of their particular faith group, it is necessary to ensure that believers who wish to join that faith group, are initiated into it and agree to comply with its polices, rules and procedures. There is nothing wrong with that at all. If I decided to join the Eastern Orthodox church, I would have to provide evidence that I have been baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and would have to submit myself to the "confirmation" or "Christmation" process that is part of that church.

When I changed from a Charismatic to an Anglican church, I had to be confirmed (at the age of 29) before I could be seen as a full member of that church. It didn't change my personal faith in Christ. It is just that I just changed religious "clubs" (I don't mean any disrespect in saying that).

When a person joins a sports or community club or organsation they have to sign a form agreeing to the policies, rules and procedures of that organisation. It is just the same as joining a church.

My view of the church, whatever the denomination, is that the believers in it are the true church, and the organisation is the "scaffolding" to support the faith and fellowship of the believers.

So, there is nothing wrong with being initiated into the Eastern Orthodox church in order to be bonded into it. In fact, it would be the right thing to do. You can still have your faith in Christ and worship Him from your heart through the liturgy. It is not that Eastern Orthodox believers are more "holy" than others. It is that they feel more comfortable in that setting, and feel that this is the way they choose to worship God.

I found when I joined the Anglican church and got to know the people there, that they were just ordinary people who love the Lord, and were just as mad as I was. I have been associated with Baptist and Presbyterian churches over the years and now part of a Methodist/Presbyterian Union church, and in all these settings, the basic character of the people are just the same.

I don't think God is too concerned about the religious label. He looks on the heart, and when He says that your heart is right with Him, His attitude would be: "Worship in the way you feel most comfortable and supported."

If you are worried about whether people are as "holy" as you think they should be, remember what Jesus said to Peter: "What is that to you? Follow Me!"

except the Bible doesn't define Church the way that you do.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

except the Bible doesn't define Church the way that you do.

I understand, because the Orthodox church does go right back to the First Century and remained faithful to the core principles while the Latin church went into a different direction. Because I am in this forum, I remain respectful to you in this. Actually I see in coming into this forum is equivalent to visiting your church and the same respect is required.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I understand, because the Orthodox church does go right back to the First Century and remained faithful to the core principles while the Latin church went into a different direction. Because I am in this forum, I remain respectful to you in this. Actually I see in coming into this forum is equivalent to visiting your church and the same respect is required.

much appreciated

 

[Lady Donna Marie]

[QUOTE="Rayanne,

No matter where one goes there will be delusions because human beings have their ideas of what is good for them or others and instead of just embracing what is true instead of our ideas to change something can be hard for some. If someone's heart is firm in what they believe like Saint Ambrose who during a counsel to stand up for the beliefs of the church, then God can bless their efforts. However, God isn't going to make a person believe or live the truth. To live the truth is something that should come out of love for God and at times that means we have to sacrifice things in your life to accomplish what is right and true. You're willingness to even ask about Universalism to me would be a warning sign that I personally would be opening the doors for satan to guide me in another direction. I would ask yourself why did you become Orthodox in the first place and place your hope in that.

As for closed communion it is right and correct to protect that which is holy if a priest doesn't know someone so that a person is not taking it for their condemnation which is not good.

The Orthodox Church carries the fullness of the true church, but within the Orthodox Church and all others there are imperfect people/sinners and that is all that God has to work with.

I would take time and seek your heart to see why you are questioning the faith you committed too. Sometimes people often make excuses to lean on other people's delusions about church and ideas that infest the church with that which is not true. There are clearly some examples of that from the responses on your thread. The saints endured to receive their reward. I pray you do too.

 

[HTacianas]

Hello. Thank you so much for reading this and offering any insight or help you can. I'm a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy - OCA parish in the Diocese of the South. I've been Orthodox for many years now.

I'm feeling very disillusioned about closed communion and the claims of my church to be "the true Church." I don't see evidence that people in my church are any holier than Christians outside Orthodoxy. I don't see evidence that the grace of God is any more present in my church than in "heretical" churches. I feel like many of our long prayers, traditions, and rituals are largely man-made and could stand to be re-evaluated. I am not sure exactly what Jesus had in mind for Christianity/church, but when I look at the Christian religious landscape, it seems to me to be in shambles. I don't think Orthodoxy is necessarily a "beacon of light" in the midst of the chaos. Orthodoxy is in decline, and ecumenical councils don't happen anymore than make any important decisions that change anything. The plight of the LGBTQ community in the church continues without relief. I don't see why Universalism should be considered to be "formally condemned" when Orthodoxy has such a beautiful strand of Universalism woven throughout some of its saints and church fathers. Why should I believe that Emperor Justinian was inspired by the Holy Spirit when calling the 5th Ecumenical Council and having Origen condemned? How can Orthodox Christians ever be sure that their decisions at councils or otherwise were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit? There is simply no way to ever verify this.

There are no good answers to these questions when I've asked (I'm open to hearing them if there are). I'm sure many people can relate to my disillusionment. If there are no good answers to these questions, then I am not sure where to go from here.

Thanks,

Rayanne

You say that there are no good answers to your questions, and members of the Church are no holier than others, and Orthodoxy is in decline. That begs the question of if you are likely to go down the street to some other place and find holy people with all the answers belonging to some group not in decline?

Or suppose you go to some place teaching universalism who have LGBT clergy and gay marriage yet deny the body and blood of Christ? Would you be theologically at peace there?

 

[dzheremi]

Wow...the things you miss when you have to go to a doctor's appointment!

Lord have mercy!

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

MOD HAT ON

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In the future please don't respond to flaming and trolling. Instead, simply report it and let staff take care of the problem. Thank you.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[rusmeister]

Hello. Thank you so much for reading this and offering any insight or help you can. I'm a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy - OCA parish in the Diocese of the South. I've been Orthodox for many years now.

I'm feeling very disillusioned about closed communion and the claims of my church to be "the true Church." I don't see evidence that people in my church are any holier than Christians outside Orthodoxy. I don't see evidence that the grace of God is any more present in my church than in "heretical" churches. I feel like many of our long prayers, traditions, and rituals are largely man-made and could stand to be re-evaluated. I am not sure exactly what Jesus had in mind for Christianity/church, but when I look at the Christian religious landscape, it seems to me to be in shambles. I don't think Orthodoxy is necessarily a "beacon of light" in the midst of the chaos. Orthodoxy is in decline, and ecumenical councils don't happen anymore than make any important decisions that change anything. The plight of the LGBTQ community in the church continues without relief. I don't see why Universalism should be considered to be "formally condemned" when Orthodoxy has such a beautiful strand of Universalism woven throughout some of its saints and church fathers. Why should I believe that Emperor Justinian was inspired by the Holy Spirit when calling the 5th Ecumenical Council and having Origen condemned? How can Orthodox Christians ever be sure that their decisions at councils or otherwise were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit? There is simply no way to ever verify this.

There are no good answers to these questions when I've asked (I'm open to hearing them if there are). I'm sure many people can relate to my disillusionment. If there are no good answers to these questions, then I am not sure where to go from here.

Thanks,

Rayanne

Hi there!
I’ve been disillusioned, too. But the illusion was imagining I could find the Truth and have everyone in that place of discovery fully accepting, living, and being in one accord with the Truth. I have dealt with the unbelievable rejection of a book I had worked five years on translating that simply defended the Christian understanding of marriage and the family (and even here find people who rebel against it, because lifelong faithfulness can be a hard thing to live up to, and we all want a “get out of jail/my cross free” card. I have discovered that a LOT of people in a supposed bastion of traditional thought are actually in line with the thought of the world. I have found that I myself do not live up to the standard of holiness.

But as Lady Donna said, what brought you to Orthodoxy in the first place? CS Lewis rightly said that

Reason may win truths; without Faith she will retain them just so long as Satan pleases. There is nothing we cannot be made to believe or disbelieve. If we wish to be rational, not now and then, but constantly, we must pray for the gift of Faith, for the power to go on believing not in the teeth of reason but in the teeth of lust and terror and jealousy and boredom and indifference that which reason, authority, or experience, or all three, have once delivered to us for truth.

“Where can we go Lord? You have the words of eternal life.”
(Bonus points if you can name the speaker and context.)

 

[ArmyMatt]

“Where can we go Lord? You have the words of eternal life.”
(Bonus points if you can name the speaker and context.)

St Peter in John's Gospel, after many followers left Christ after He explained the Eucharist.

 

[rusmeister]

St Peter in John's Gospel, after many followers left Christ after He explained the Eucharist.

(Professor Hinkle from Frosty the Snowman):
“No fair!!!”

 

[Rayanne]

Thank you so much for your replies! I have read them all and am taking them to heart. I really do appreciate the time taken by each of you to read and respond to this thread. Honestly, I believe I would like to remain in the Orthodox Church, because it IS true that, if I were to join a different church, I would just encounter a different set of issues and frustrations. I do really love a lot about Orthodoxy (I love more about Orthodoxy than I love about any other church), and there's a good chance it's the best church for me for the rest of my life. Yet I would still love some feedback about the following:

I have been a closet Universalist (Universal Reconciliation, that is, not Unitarian Universalism), most of my life, so there is nothing new there for me. I have been reading books on the issue in the last year and feeling convinced by it both Scripturally and philosophically. Therefore, I'm realizing my need to be more open about it with some people. I actually DO believe in hell and judgement but believe they are rehabilitative and not eternal. I am curious how well I can fit into my church (or any Orthodox church) if I am more open with some people about this. It's discouraging to feel like I can't talk about it at church for fear of scandalizing certain others. Although I am not the only Universalist at my church.

As for closed communion, what bothers me most is our prohibition from taking communion at other churches. It's considered a sin I have to bring to confession. Given that I believe in Universal Reconciliation, and I also believe that LGBTQ people are misunderstood, misjudged, and mistreated by all traditional churches, I feel like taking a "breather" and visiting some other churches, just out of curiosity and to help me process through this. But then, if I do this, that puts me out of communion with the Orthodox Church until I can, in all sincerely, repent of my attendance at other churches and return to the Orthodox sacraments of confession and communion.

All this brings up for me a deep curiosity about how much of my church's teaching, worship, prayers, and rituals are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and how much is just manmade. Or is it a combination of both? I have wanted an answer to this question for so many years. I just don't understand how to verify this. What's the harm in revisiting our beliefs and practices and seeing if the Holy Spirit want to change anything?

I do have an appointment to speak with my priest. Before I get there, though, I appreciate the opportunity to run my thoughts by others, especially other Orthodox Christians, and ask you for your feedback. If anyone has any more detailed thoughts to share, especially about my last questions about the church, I appreciate hearing them.

Thanks again,

Rayanne

 

[ArmyMatt]

just offer two thoughts.

the reason we can't take communion with other Christian confessions is because to take communion is to say you are one in faith with them, and we aren't.

as far as universalism, it's been condemned at the 5th Ecumenical council. it also makes no sense when Christ says it would have been better for Judas to never have been born.