The Triumph of Bidenomics!

[Pommer]

I only scanned the thread so please for to bear with me…
Has there been any “discussion” about what may happen to the automobile-service industry, WRT, EV expansion?
I would think that the call for “exhaust specialists” would plummet once EVs overtake ICE vehicles.
Battery/electronics, motors, suspension and body are going to be the only “jobs”.

 

[probinson]

All of this discussion about EVs made me curious about buying used, so here's another concern people have about EVs; depreciation and resale value.

A 2024 EV6 Wind AWD starts at $52,600. A quick glance at used EV6 inventory across the US shows 2022 models around $30k, give or take $2-3k That's a depreciation of $22,600, or a 43% decrease in resale value in just 2 years.

My 2022 K5 GT-Line AWD was $30,870. The average 2022 K5 GT-Line price is around $25k, give or take $2-3k. That's a depreciation of $5k, or a 17% decrease in resale value in 2 years.

Obviously resale values vary wildly across different brands and models, but it's safe to say that EVs depreciate much more quickly than their ICE counterparts.

Top 25 Cars That Hold Their Value the Best – and the 25 Worst - iSeeCars.com

All cars are holding their value better in 2023 compared to 2019, according to new research by iSeeCars. Today the average 5-year depreciation is 38.8...

www.iseecars.com

 

[probinson]

No, I'm not. I stated range on the AWD is 274 miles, and then added you could slightly increase range to 310 with an AWD -- though, honestly, there are ways to get that better range with an AWD (such as running in Eco mode which doesn't use the front motor).

Brilliant. Buy an AWD and then don't run the front motor, which makes it NOT an AWD. So the "ways to get that better range with an AWD" is to make it run like a RWD.

 

[SimplyMe]

Brilliant. Buy an AWD and then don't run the front motor, which makes it NOT an AWD. So the "ways to get that better range with an AWD" is to make it run like a RWD.

How often do you really use your AWD? No one said it doesn't use it at all. Instead, if you select Eco mode, when the car doesn't need AWD it doesn't run it -- and basically only if you chose Eco mode. But then, if you accelerate quickly or if you start to lose traction, the front wheels are automatically used (it takes a fraction of a second to start the front motor spinning, faster than your turbocharger can spool up). Additionally, every time you start regenerating power, it also uses the front motor.

So you are looking at it wrong, it can be a way to have AWD when desired (whether you want or need it), but be able to have efficiency close to that of the RWD only car.

 

[probinson]

To be honest, I was comparing a 2024 K5 to EV6, I don't recall you previously mentioning what model year K5 you have (but may have missed it). And, no, your K5 does not have those options, that I'm aware of.

While you are correct that I don't have a surround view monitor (because that wasn't even an option on the K5 in 2022), the thing you keep glossing over is the GT-Line styling. This is why my K5 GT-Line is more comparable to an EV6 GT-Line. Not because the EV6 has a few more cameras that weren't even an available option on the K5 in 2024 , but because the sporty styling. Note how Kia delineates the setup up to the GT-Line in the EV6 lineup.

Do you see it now? "GT-Line Body & Interior Styling" is the top-listed difference. The same is true of the K5 lineup. The body lines and interior is different in the GT-Line than in other trims. Not to mention you can't even get a power sunroof on anything below the GT-Line, which would. be the closest thing to my K5's panoramic moonroof. The "Yacht Blue" color is closest to the "Sapphire Blue" which again, is not even available in anything lower than the Wind.

Any time I pass a K5 on the road, it's pretty easy to tell what trim level it is. There are noticeably different body lines on the GT-Line trim. It's just a nicer looking car which demands a premium.

Yes, there is a bit more tech in the EV6 than in my K5, but the real price difference is the GT-Line Body & Interior styling, which is why I say that it's the closest comparison to my K5.

 

[SimplyMe]

All of this discussion about EVs made me curious about buying used, so here's another concern people have about EVs; depreciation and resale value.

A 2024 EV6 Wind AWD starts at $52,600. A quick glance at used EV6 inventory across the US shows 2022 models around $30k, give or take $2-3k That's a depreciation of $22,600, or a 43% decrease in resale value in just 2 years.

My 2022 K5 GT-Line AWD was $30,870. The average 2022 K5 GT-Line price is around $25k, give or take $2-3k. That's a depreciation of $5k, or a 17% decrease in resale value in 2 years.

Obviously resale values vary wildly across different brands and models, but it's safe to say that EVs depreciate much more quickly than their ICE counterparts.

View attachment 344660

View attachment 344661

Top 25 Cars That Hold Their Value the Best – and the 25 Worst - iSeeCars.com

All cars are holding their value better in 2023 compared to 2019, according to new research by iSeeCars. Today the average 5-year depreciation is 38.8...

www.iseecars.com

A note of those top 5 EVs that have the largest depreciation, 4 of the 5 had huge price drops. The price dropped on some Tesla models by $30K, which obviously dropped the resale value of those that bought them when they were much more expensive. The Chevy Bolt, bought new, went from $37K, in 2020, to $26K -- so again, a reason for a huge loss for people looking to sell. The Nissan Leaf is an issue of outdated technology, for charging it uses a ChadeMo plug, which never really caught on in the US. On top of that, it doesn't have a real cooling system for the battery (it is just air cooled) which causes issues with the battery in hot climates, causing used buyers not only to have to worry about how to charge their Leaf (other than at home) but also if they battery might fail soon.

It's also worth noting there are a lot of cars, not just EVs, that have had a lot of depreciation on the used market -- and a lot of it was due to the high prices car prices during and after the pandemic, so popular cars frequently were sold for thousands over the MSRP, and as supply has caught up with demand prices have gone back to normal (leading to huge depreciation on some models). For example, the BMW 7 Series has depreciated 62%, the BMW 5 Series at 59%, the Cadillac Escalade ESV at 59%, the BMW X5 at 58%, Infiniti QX80 at 58%, Jaguar XF at 58%, and Audi A7 at 57%. It isn't just EVs; just with EVs it is some of the top selling cars.

I note that EVs aren't the segment that depreciated the most, despite the huge price drops some models had. Also, if you remove vehicles like the Teslas and the Bolt, cars which had huge drops in MSRP, EV depreciation drops down close to the overall rate.

 

[probinson]

How often do you really use your AWD?

Um, my K5 is an AWD vechicle, which means it's used literally all the time.

No one said it doesn't use it at all. Instead, if you select Eco mode, when the car doesn't need AWD it doesn't run it -- and basically only if you chose Eco mode. But then, if you accelerate quickly or if you start to lose traction, the front wheels are automatically used (it takes a fraction of a second to start the front motor spinning, faster than your turbocharger can spool up). Additionally, every time you start regenerating power, it also uses the front motor.

So you are looking at it wrong, it can be a way to have AWD when desired (whether you want or need it), but be able to have efficiency close to that of the RWD only car.

You're the one looking at it wrong. People choose AWD vehicles because they want AWD vehicles. Why? Because AWD vehicles provide better traction and better acceleration than RWD. It's a preference.

Now some people might be OK with AWD "when they need it", but others (such as myself) find the AWD driving experience superior in all conditions, which is why I bought an AWD vehicle.

AWD vehicles require dual motors, which drains the battery faster. Therefore, AWD EVs will have considerably shorter range. This is yet another strike against EVs for my use-case. Which I'm sure you'll say I'm exaggerating. Again.

 

[probinson]

A note of those top 5 EVs that have the largest depreciation, 4 of the 5 had huge price drops. The price dropped on some Tesla models by $30K, which obviously dropped the resale value of those that bought them when they were much more expensive. The Chevy Bolt, bought new, went from $37K, in 2020, to $26K -- so again, a reason for a huge loss for people looking to sell. The Nissan Leaf is an issue of outdated technology, for charging it uses a ChadeMo plug, which never really caught on in the US. On top of that, it doesn't have a real cooling system for the battery (it is just air cooled) which causes issues with the battery in hot climates, causing used buyers not only to have to worry about how to charge their Leaf (other than at home) but also if they battery might fail soon.

It's also worth noting there are a lot of cars, not just EVs, that have had a lot of depreciation on the used market -- and a lot of it was due to the high prices car prices during and after the pandemic, so popular cars frequently were sold for thousands over the MSRP, and as supply has caught up with demand prices have gone back to normal (leading to huge depreciation on some models). For example, the BMW 7 Series has depreciated 62%, the BMW 5 Series at 59%, the Cadillac Escalade ESV at 59%, the BMW X5 at 58%, Infiniti QX80 at 58%, Jaguar XF at 58%, and Audi A7 at 57%. It isn't just EVs; just with EVs it is some of the top selling cars.

I note that EVs aren't the segment that depreciated the most, despite the huge price drops some models had. Also, if you remove vehicles like the Teslas and the Bolt, cars which had huge drops in MSRP, EV depreciation drops down close to the overall rate.

OK.

And what about the used 2022 EV6? There has not been a price drop on MSRP, yet it has depreciated nearly 50% not in 5 years, but in just 2 years.

Earlier you were telling me what a great deal you got on your EV6. You were able to get that great deal because the car depreciated substantially.

 

[SimplyMe]

While you are correct that I don't have a surround view monitor (because that wasn't even an option on the K5 in 2022), the thing you keep glossing over is the GT-Line styling. This is why my K5 GT-Line is more comparable to an EV6 GT-Line. Not because the EV6 has a few more cameras that weren't even an available option on the K5 in 2024 , but because the sporty styling. Note how Kia delineates the setup up to the GT-Line in the EV6 lineup.

View attachment 344663

Do you see it now? "GT-Line Body & Interior Styling" is the top-listed difference. The same is true of the K5 lineup. The body lines and interior is different in the GT-Line than in other trims. Not to mention you can't even get a power sunroof on anything below the GT-Line, which would. be the closest thing to my K5's panoramic moonroof. The "Yacht Blue" color is closest to the "Sapphire Blue" which again, is not even available in anything lower than the Wind.

Any time I pass a K5 on the road, it's pretty easy to tell what trim level it is. There are noticeably different body lines on the GT-Line trim. It's just a nicer looking car which demands a premium.

Yes, there is a bit more tech in the EV6 than in my K5, but the real price difference is the GT-Line Body & Interior styling, which is why I say that it's the closest comparison to my K5.

I'm sorry, the differences on the EV6 in terms of styling between the Wind and the GT-Line are pretty minor on the outside of the car. It is the difference of a piece of plastic on the bottom of the grill in front, and a bit more paint on the sides and rears (wheel arches and more of the bottom rear is painted, and a slightly different rear brake light. The inside of the car you do get a different material on the seats, one that is more of a suede type of material and you get some ambient lighting. Still, in terms of actual cost, the differences are minor. As for colors, the only difference between the Wind at GT-Line on the EV6 is that you can get two of the colors in a Matte finish on the GT-Line, otherwise the colors are the same. That "tech" you are blowing off is most of the price difference; at a difference you'd be hard pressed to tell whether an EV6 was a Wind or a GT-Line.

 

[SimplyMe]

OK.

And what about the used 2022 EV6? There has not been a price drop on MSRP, yet it has depreciated nearly 50% not in 5 years, but in just 2 years.

Earlier you were telling me what a great deal you got on your EV6. You were able to get that great deal because the car depreciated substantially.

Yes, because, while the EV6 price did not drop the actual sales price has. In 2022, when you were buying your K5, many dealers had as much as $10K markups on EV6s, due to high demand. I remember the first time I saw an EV6 on a dealer lot, the cars were used and the dealer wanted over MSRP; he had no new EV6s for sale. In the last year, as I've pointed out, not only has the markup gone away but Kia is offering a $7500 credit -- and that is on top of any dealer discounts. The used prices are low because current a new EV6 can be easily purchased in many markets for $10K under MSRP

 

[probinson]

I'm sorry, the differences on the EV6 in terms of styling between the Wind and the GT-Line are pretty minor on the outside of the car. It is the difference of a piece of plastic on the bottom of the grill in front, and a bit more paint on the sides and rears (wheel arches and more of the bottom rear is painted, and a slightly different rear brake light.

And a power sunroof. Do you have any idea the cost of a power sunroof? And that isn't even the same thing as my panoramic moonroof. Just as an FYI when I go car shopping, I don't even consider vehicles that don't have a moonroof.

The inside of the car you do get a different material on the seats, one that is more of a suede type of material and you get some ambient lighting.

Yes. A premium material that Kia calls SynTex, the same thing that's in my K5.

Still, in terms of actual cost, the differences are minor.

I know you really want to believe that. But the GT-Line trim level commands a premium because of its sportier styling and inclusion of a moonroof/sunroof.

 

[probinson]

Yes, because, while the EV6 price did not drop the actual sales price has. In 2022, when you were buying your K5, many dealers had as much as $10K markups on EV6s, due to high demand.

Almost every dealer had markups on ALL vehicles in 2022. The dealership where I bought my K5 had a $1K markup, but because I knew the salesman and I had done business there before, I only had to pay a $500 markup.

I remember the first time I saw an EV6 on a dealer lot, the cars were used and the dealer wanted over MSRP; he had no new EV6s for sale. In the last year, as I've pointed out, not only has the markup gone away but Kia is offering a $7500 credit -- and that is on top of any dealer discounts. The used prices are low because current a new EV6 can be easily purchased in many markets for $10K under MSRP

Even if you pretend like that's true, the current starting MSRP for the Wind is $52,600, which really hasn't changed much since its introduction. If we subtract the $7,500 credit, that brings the price down to $45,100. A used 2022 EV6 Wind can be had for around $30k or less, which is still a depreciation of >$15k over 2 years. That's pretty significant, and is nearly double the percentage at which my K5 has depreciated over the same time.

I'd also point out that the $7,500 credit is one of multiple offers you can take.

Currently, there are 2 purchase offers from Kia for the 2024 EV6.

• $7,500 customer cash
• 0% APR for 60 months

You can choose one or the other. If you choose 0% APR financing, you don't get the $7,500 credit. If you're financing the car, it's almost certainly better to take the 0% financing offer.

Here's a comparison using the $52,600 MSRP. I assumed $0 down for both loans, and did one at 0% for 60 months on $52,600 and one at 3% (I'm being generous. Current rates are closer to 5-6%) for 60 months on $45,100. With the 0% financing, you'll save $3,345 if you make all payments on schedule.

Of course, this means you can't take the $7,500 cash offer, which is really just marketing hype to make it seem like you're getting a better deal when in reality you're actually paying more than if you'd paid full MSRP with 0% financing.

 

[wing2000]

All of this discussion about EVs made me curious about buying used, so here's another concern people have about EVs; depreciation and resale value.

...so you're saying now would be a good time to scoop up a used EV. I would, but am not in the market currently. The fact is, I WFH and my wife is retired....we just don't drive that much any more. We plan to run our Honda's into the ground (both over 150k miles and still running strong).

 

[hislegacy]

Here is another hoorah for Bidenomics

MSN

Gallup’s latest poll shows just 36% of Americans approve of Biden’s handling of the economy — dragged down, it must be noted, by an approval rating among Republican voters of just 4%. In addition, Gallup’s respondents are evenly divided — 48% to 47%, respectively — over whether their own financial situation is worse or better now than in early 2020, when Trump was beginning his final full year in office.​

​

“[Biden’s] narrative on the economy has already been written. It’s going to be very hard to change that now. People have associated him with this high-inflationary period,” Myrow said. Even though inflation has slowed significantly from record levels, consumer prices in February were up 3.1% on a year-over-year basis, slightly more than expected. In other words, while the inflation rate has nearly normalized, prices, for the most part, are not returning to their prepandemic levels.​

​

Good Job Joe - you are a shoe in for re-election.

 

[probinson]

...so you're saying now would be a good time to scoop up a used EV.

It seems that way. The rapid depreciation of EVs means that you can pick up a decent used (one/two-year old) EV for under $30k. I've seen 2022 Tesla Model 3 Long Range vehicles for between $25k-$30k.

I would, but am not in the market currently.

Neither am I. I already have two cars. My second car is a 2011 Chevy Cruze with only 64k miles on it. It might be a good car to sell/gift to one of my kids in a year or two. Maybe then I'll be ready for my second car to be an EV.

The fact is, I WFH and my wife is retired....we just don't drive that much any more.

Similar situation here. I WFH all but one day/month. I have to go into the office (25 miles away) on the second Wednesday of each month. My wife is our church secretary. She works 2 days/week and the church is about a mile from our house. We live less than 1/4 mile from major retail and grocery shopping and about 1/2 mile from my daughter's high school. An EV would be perfect for our local driving if the price was right.

All other driving we do is fairly long distance. Weekend trips, vacations, etc., and an EV just doesn't fit the bill for that kind of driving.

 

[wing2000]

Here is another hoorah for Bidenomics

MSN

Gallup’s latest poll shows just 36% of Americans approve of Biden’s handling of the economy — dragged down, it must be noted, by an approval rating among Republican voters of just 4%. In addition, Gallup’s respondents are evenly divided — 48% to 47%, respectively — over whether their own financial situation is worse or better now than in early 2020, when Trump was beginning his final full year in office.​

​

“[Biden’s] narrative on the economy has already been written. It’s going to be very hard to change that now. People have associated him with this high-inflationary period,” Myrow said. Even though inflation has slowed significantly from record levels, consumer prices in February were up 3.1% on a year-over-year basis, slightly more than expected. In other words, while the inflation rate has nearly normalized, prices, for the most part, are not returning to their prepandemic levels.​

​

Good Job Joe - you are a shoe in for re-election.

More polls reflecting tribal narratives as evidenced by a 4% approval from Republican voters.

It's not based on objective, economic data.

Additionally, it seems many don't remember the challenges our country was facing in 2020.

 

[KCfromNC]

In other words, while the inflation rate has nearly normalized, prices, for the most part, are not returning to their prepandemic levels.

​

Yeah, that's pretty typical. The last time we had a 4 year period of deflation was the early 1930s, during the great depression. Is the fact it continues not to happen during Biden's 1st term supposed to be noteworthy?

I guess we also didn't have deflation during Mr. Trump's administration and he did lose the election. But I don't think the two are related in any way, he lost for other reasons.

 

[hislegacy]

More polls reflecting tribal narratives as evidenced by a 4% approval from Republican voters.

It seems the lower income and middle class tribes are suffering under Bidenomics and are expressing it vocally and in a few months in the voting booth.

 

[wing2000]

It seems the lower income and middle class tribes are suffering under Bidenomics and are expressing it vocally and in a few months in the voting booth.

The lower income and middle class have been suffering from growing a growing income gap for a few decades.

 

[hislegacy]

The lower income and middle class have been suffering from growing a growing income gap for a few decades.

Which has been amplified by Bidenomics.