The Triumph of Bidenomics!

[wing2000]

Which has been amplified by Bidenomics.

How so? Which specific Biden policy contributed to growing income gap?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Which has been amplified by Bidenomics.

Nope. The income gap is hardly going to close under any circumstances, but it's shrinking as the growth in wages at the bottom outpace the growth at the top.

 

[hislegacy]

How so? Which specific Biden policy contributed to growing income gap?

INFLATION - same as Jimmy Carter Chapter 1

It is the hallmark result of Bidenomics and everybody suffers under it, but his tribe doesn't allow their members to state so.

Example:

The average cost of a dozen Grade A large eggs was $3 in February, up from $2.52 in January, according to data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, retrieved from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis’ FRED site.​

The latest Consumer Price Index, or CPI, shows that the price of eggs rose 5.8% from January to February.​

​

Bidenomics has resulted in the average family paying hundreds of dollars a month for the items four years ago (already cited).

Biden's approval rate on the economy is 36%

His team can keep saying it is the best - yadda yadda yadda - but people know and experience the difference.

 

[wing2000]

INFLATION - same as Jimmy Carter Chapter 1

It is the hallmark result of Bidenomics and everybody suffers under it, but his tribe doesn't allow their members to state so.

Example:

The average cost of a dozen Grade A large eggs was $3 in February, up from $2.52 in January, according to data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, retrieved from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis’ FRED site.​

The latest Consumer Price Index, or CPI, shows that the price of eggs rose 5.8% from January to February.​

​

Bidenomics has resulted in the average family paying hundreds of dollars a month for the items four years ago (already cited).

Biden's approval rate on the economy is 36%

His team can keep saying it is the best - yadda yadda yadda - but people know and experience the difference.

I asked you for a specific policy.
You answer: Inflation

Inflation is not a policy.

 

[hislegacy]

It is why he is tanking in the polls.

 

[hislegacy]

Even Democratic politicians are distancing themselves from Bidenomics

https://www.axios.com/2024/03/27/biden-democrats-ditch-bidenomics

"Bidenomics" mentions by congressional Democrats dropped during the fall and now have nearly disappeared, to less than a dozen a month.​

​

• But Republicans in Congress can't stop saying it: They've used "Bidenomics" nearly 500 times this month in their public statements, per Quorum.

Reality check: Even before his two-month sabbatical from saying "Bidenomomics," Biden gradually had been ditching the term.​

​

 

[probinson]

Nope. The income gap is hardly going to close under any circumstances, but it's shrinking as the growth in wages at the bottom outpace the growth at the top.

View attachment 344732

I for one am shocked, shocked I say, that the Biden-Harris Treasury thinks the Biden-Harris policies are working.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I for one am shocked, shocked I say, that the Biden-Harris Treasury thinks the Biden-Harris policies are working.

Good thing they have data to back it up unlike, say, some posters here, eh?

 

[probinson]

Good thing they have data to back it up unlike, say, some posters here, eh?

Question: Has any administration ever posted articles or data showing that their policies aren't working?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Question: Has any administration ever posted articles or data showing that their policies aren't working?

Probably not. But there's making claims and then there's making claims along with the supporting data.

Fortunately, Team Biden did the latter, contradicting some posters who did the former.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Question: Has any administration ever posted articles or data showing that their policies aren't working?

The Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes its data freely, whether the numbers are good or bad.

 

[probinson]

Probably not. But there's making claims and then there's making claims along with the supporting data.

Um, all of the claims from all of the administrations have had "supporting data".

 

[iluvatar5150]

Um, all of the claims from all of the administrations have had "supporting data".

If only forum participants could be so rigorous.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Um, all of the claims from all of the administrations have had "supporting data".

"That was the largest audience to witness an inauguration, period."
“this was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period, both in person and around the globe.”

These statements only had "alternative facts", not data.

 

[Gene2memE]

Question: Has any administration ever posted articles or data showing that their policies aren't working?

The Trump administration did, at least a couple of times. Statements on the economic impact of new tariffs and growth in the size of the US trade deficit come immediately to mind.

I'm assuming it wasn't deliberate. More likely it was another artifact of just how well run the Trump White House.

 

[SimplyMe]

OK.

And what about the used 2022 EV6? There has not been a price drop on MSRP, yet it has depreciated nearly 50% not in 5 years, but in just 2 years.

Earlier you were telling me what a great deal you got on your EV6. You were able to get that great deal because the car depreciated substantially.

Hertz, that is the reason why. As you've heard, Hertz is dumping thousands of EVs on the used car market, many lightly used, to include EV6s. From what I've seen at Hertz' Used Car website, practically all of them have less than 20,000 miles. Dumping EV6s onto the market has lowered used car prices on them. I'll comment more later.

And a power sunroof. Do you have any idea the cost of a power sunroof? And that isn't even the same thing as my panoramic moonroof. Just as an FYI when I go car shopping, I don't even consider vehicles that don't have a moonroof.



Yes. A premium material that Kia calls SynTex, the same thing that's in my K5.



I know you really want to believe that. But the GT-Line trim level commands a premium because of its sportier styling and inclusion of a moonroof/sunroof.

You do realize that the EV6 Wind has SynTex; in fact, at least based on the 2024 list, the Wind has more SynTex than you do in your car -- as the sheet claims that you have a mixture of SynTex and Cloth seats. I will grant you that the EV6 Wind does not have a sunroof, so out of all the items your K5 is missing, that is one you get credit for having.

Almost every dealer had markups on ALL vehicles in 2022. The dealership where I bought my K5 had a $1K markup, but because I knew the salesman and I had done business there before, I only had to pay a $500 markup.

As I said, any popular model frequently had a markup -- and EVs had some of the highest markups. Again, while your dealer was only doing $1K on the K5, I'm curious if you remember how much they were trying to mark up the EV6 (since you allegedly looked at them then)?

Even if you pretend like that's true, the current starting MSRP for the Wind is $52,600, which really hasn't changed much since its introduction. If we subtract the $7,500 credit, that brings the price down to $45,100. A used 2022 EV6 Wind can be had for around $30k or less, which is still a depreciation of >$15k over 2 years. That's pretty significant, and is nearly double the percentage at which my K5 has depreciated over the same time.

I'd also point out that the $7,500 credit is one of multiple offers you can take.

Currently, there are 2 purchase offers from Kia for the 2024 EV6.

• $7,500 customer cash
• 0% APR for 60 months

You can choose one or the other. If you choose 0% APR financing, you don't get the $7,500 credit. If you're financing the car, it's almost certainly better to take the 0% financing offer.

Here's a comparison using the $52,600 MSRP. I assumed $0 down for both loans, and did one at 0% for 60 months on $52,600 and one at 3% (I'm being generous. Current rates are closer to 5-6%) for 60 months on $45,100. With the 0% financing, you'll save $3,345 if you make all payments on schedule.

View attachment 344671

Of course, this means you can't take the $7,500 cash offer, which is really just marketing hype to make it seem like you're getting a better deal when in reality you're actually paying more than if you'd paid full MSRP with 0% financing.

Which is a rather stupid exercise for you to do. The point was you could save $7,500 on an EV6. The fact that you can chose to take more than $7500 by getting better financing doesn't take away, as you point out, that you are saving more than $7,500. What's even more interesting, rather than getting a loan you can lease the EV6 -- and that allows you to get the $7,500 federal tax credit off the car (which you can't get on a sale, since it is built in Korea). I know of one person that leased a new EV6, got the $7,500 credit from Kia and then got the $7,500 tax credit off the car, not to mention something like another $3000 off the car from the dealer. I believe he did in on an actual GT version (not the GT-line), but he got roughly $18K off the purchase of a new EV6.

As for the rest of the price drop, and the loss in sales, I have to say that it is made a bit harder in the US when you have groups working against sales of EVs. There are a number of petroleum advocacy groups, largely funded by the oil companies, that put out a lot of propaganda telling people why they shouldn't buy EVs; and being knew with fear of the "unknown," this does hurt sales of EVs.

 

[probinson]

Hertz, that is the reason why. As you've heard, Hertz is dumping thousands of EVs on the used car market, many lightly used, to include EV6s. From what I've seen at Hertz' Used Car website, practically all of them have less than 20,000 miles. Dumping EV6s onto the market has lowered used car prices on them. I'll comment more later.

And?

The point is, an EV6 from 2022 has depreciated at roughly twice the rate of my K5 purchased in 2022. The reasons really don't matter to someone who paid $60k+ for a car that is now worth <$30k just 2 years later. I can bet most of those EV6 owners are consideredably upside-down on their loans now.

Meanwhile, I have nearly $5k in equity on my K5 at the moment.

You do realize that the EV6 Wind has SynTex; in fact, at least based on the 2024 list, the Wind has more SynTex than you do in your car -- as the sheet claims that you have a mixture of SynTex and Cloth seats. I will grant you that the EV6 Wind does not have a sunroof, so out of all the items your K5 is missing, that is one you get credit for having.

You do know that cars with panoramic moonroofs cost a few thousand dollars more than cars without them, right? In fact, you can't get a panoramic moonroof on ANY trim level of the EV6. That was a major selling point in my decision to go with the my K5 GT-Line.

Also, the little pieces of plastic trim that you're downplaying are quite expensive. I had the misfortune of someone backing into the rear end of my K5 in a parking lot. They did more than $5k in damages because of the plastic trim pieces that you seem to think are insignificant.

The TRIM is the reason the GT-Line is more expensive in both the K5 and EV6 lineup. Heck, the TRIM is the reason ANY car is more expensive in ANY lineup.

As I said, any popular model frequently had a markup -- and EVs had some of the highest markups. Again, while your dealer was only doing $1K on the K5, I'm curious if you remember how much they were trying to mark up the EV6 (since you allegedly looked at them then)?

When I was considering a new car, the EV6 MSRP was around $60k. That's about as far as I needed to go, as there was no way I was going to spend twice as much as the K5 for ANY car. So I don't know what the markups were on the EV6 in 2022.

Which is a rather stupid exercise for you to do. The point was you could save $7,500 on an EV6. The fact that you can chose to take more than $7500 by getting better financing doesn't take away, as you point out, that you are saving more than $7,500.

I thought we were having a civil conversation here? Ah well. If you want to devolve into calling me "stupid", so be it.

It seems you don't understand how financing works. Banks and dealerships thrive on ignorance like this.

If you take 0% financing on ANY vehicle, you will save far more than any cash incentive UNLESS you are paying cash. That you think a $7,500 cash incentive is better than a 0% finance offer because it gives you warm fuzzies that you paid less is, to quote you, "stupid". You aren't "saving" anything. You're paying MORE for the car if you take the $7,500 incentive than if you take the 0% financing offer. It's all smoke and mirrors to make it seem like you're getting a better deal.

What's even more interesting, rather than getting a loan you can lease the EV6 -- and that allows you to get the $7,500 federal tax credit off the car (which you can't get on a sale, since it is built in Korea). I know of one person that leased a new EV6, got the $7,500 credit from Kia and then got the $7,500 tax credit off the car, not to mention something like another $3000 off the car from the dealer. I believe he did in on an actual GT version (not the GT-line), but he got roughly $18K off the purchase of a new EV6.

It also seems that you don't understand how a lease works. The person either "leased" the car or "purchased" it, but he did not do both. And he'll have exactly ZERO equity at the end of his lease.

I've leased two cars. Never again.

As for the rest of the price drop, and the loss in sales, I have to say that it is made a bit harder in the US when you have groups working against sales of EVs. There are a number of petroleum advocacy groups, largely funded by the oil companies, that put out a lot of propaganda telling people why they shouldn't buy EVs; and being knew with fear of the "unknown," this does hurt sales of EVs.

That may be true, but while you can pretend like it's all a big conspiracy by big oil, there are legitimate issues with EVs that must be addressed before mass adoption with happen. Topping that list are lower prices and longer range/faster charging.

 

[wing2000]

...not bad.

 

[SimplyMe]

And?

The point is, an EV6 from 2022 has depreciated at roughly twice the rate of my K5 purchased in 2022. The reasons really don't matter to someone who paid $60k+ for a car that is now worth <$30k just 2 years later. I can bet most of those EV6 owners are consideredably upside-down on their loans now.

Meanwhile, I have nearly $5k in equity on my K5 at the moment.

Could be. Of course, the buyers of Telluride's also have the problem, as Kia dealers also put ridiculous markups on that car, and they also sell for $30,000 (or even less) today. Again, the popular cars of 2022 all had ridiculous markups and many have lost a lot of value today -- part of why so many in the top 10 of value loss are not EVs. It helps when you buy something like a K5 that wasn't one of the highly sought after models -- they don't have the markups of the popular vehicles.

You do know that cars with panoramic moonroofs cost a few thousand dollars more than cars without them, right? In fact, you can't get a panoramic moonroof on ANY trim level of the EV6. That was a major selling point in my decision to go with the my K5 GT-Line.

Yes, that seemed to be something they did, likely to differentiate it from its "sister" the Ioniq 5.

Also, the little pieces of plastic trim that you're downplaying are quite expensive. I had the misfortune of someone backing into the rear end of my K5 in a parking lot. They did more than $5k in damages because of the plastic trim pieces that you seem to think are insignificant.

The TRIM is the reason the GT-Line is more expensive in both the K5 and EV6 lineup. Heck, the TRIM is the reason ANY car is more expensive in ANY lineup.

I'm not trying to claim it is just a bit of plastic trim on the K5 -- I agree, it is an entire change of the front of the car -- almost everything below the hood. That isn't true of the EV6, it is literally a piece of trim, one that you likely don't even notice when driving by an EV6, that is below the bumper.

When I was considering a new car, the EV6 MSRP was around $60k. That's about as far as I needed to go, as there was no way I was going to spend twice as much as the K5 for ANY car. So I don't know what the markups were on the EV6 in 2022.

And that's fine. I wasn't going to pay what Kia dealers were wanting for it then, either.

I thought we were having a civil conversation here? Ah well. If you want to devolve into calling me "stupid", so be it.

To be clear, I did not call you stupid. If you are going that route, you've basically called me "stupid" multiple times, telling me how wrong I was about things (that I was not actually wrong about).

It seems you don't understand how financing works. Banks and dealerships thrive on ignorance like this.

If you take 0% financing on ANY vehicle, you will save far more than any cash incentive UNLESS you are paying cash. That you think a $7,500 cash incentive is better than a 0% finance offer because it gives you warm fuzzies that you paid less is, to quote you, "stupid". You aren't "saving" anything. You're paying MORE for the car if you take the $7,500 incentive than if you take the 0% financing offer. It's all smoke and mirrors to make it seem like you're getting a better deal.

Do you read what I write, or do you just assume that I'm automatically wrong? My point was that whether you take 0% financing and save $7500 on interest or whether you take the $7500 off the price of the car, you are getting roughly $7500 off. Granted, in both cases it is likely more than $7,500; you've made the comment about how you'd save more than $7500 on interest and, in most states, you'll save the cost of sales tax since they are taking off the $7500 off the price of the car. Or are you thinking that Kia isn't paying the $7500 to the finance company, instead of you, so they will give you the 0% interest? Again, both ways you are saving the $7500 off the price of the car, the only difference is whether it is off the sales price or off the interest charged -- which is why I stated the argument was pointless.

It also seems that you don't understand how a lease works. The person either "leased" the car or "purchased" it, but he did not do both. And he'll have exactly ZERO equity at the end of his lease.

I've leased two cars. Never again.

That's nice. Yes, you don't get any equity. Instead, you can let the car go or pay the residual value, likely getting a loan, to purchase the car. The point here was the person had $15,000 taken off the price of the car (what the lease company paid) and so was making extremely low payments (something like $300/month) for the EV6. And, if the car has lost half its value (as you are talking about with EVs, even though it has happened with popular gasoline cars, as well), then he can still buy a new car without the worry of being "upside down" on a loan for a car he "purchased."

That may be true, but while you can pretend like it's all a big conspiracy by big oil, there are legitimate issues with EVs that must be addressed before mass adoption with happen. Topping that list are lower prices and longer range/faster charging.

I'm not saying it is all a conspiracy, I'm stating that -- much like you did when we first started talking -- you exaggerated the claims about EVs. The differences are far less than what is claimed about them. Prices are not twice as much, they've gotten to about $10K -- and Tesla's Model Y is likely pretty close to equivalent pricing to a gas SUV, even before you take the tax credit (which can be applied at purchase) off the Model Y.

What I'm saying is, despite the issues you claim, EVs are great cars now and work for a lot of Americans. I've pointed out they are perfect for most any family as a second car. For many people, but not you, they are even great as a primary vehicle. They are cheaper to run on a day to day basis, there is little maintenance on them (largely tires, windshield wipers, and a 12-volt battery every few years). There is no oil or most other fluids -- there is coolant but that is maybe every decade that it needs to be change, so not something most will every have to do. Brakes, because of regenerative braking, last far longer (maybe "forever" for many drivers). On top of that, they tend to be "faster" (instant torque) and smoother, no noxious emissions, etc. They aren't perfect but they are very good, though they do require a bit of "re-training" to understand the differences.

 

[AlexB23]

Could be. Of course, the buyers of Telluride's also have the problem, as Kia dealers also put ridiculous markups on that car, and they also sell for $30,000 (or even less) today. Again, the popular cars of 2022 all had ridiculous markups and many have lost a lot of value today -- part of why so many in the top 10 of value loss are not EVs. It helps when you buy something like a K5 that wasn't one of the highly sought after models -- they don't have the markups of the popular vehicles.



Yes, that seemed to be something they did, likely to differentiate it from its "sister" the Ioniq 5.



I'm not trying to claim it is just a bit of plastic trim on the K5 -- I agree, it is an entire change of the front of the car -- almost everything below the hood. That isn't true of the EV6, it is literally a piece of trim, one that you likely don't even notice when driving by an EV6, that is below the bumper.



And that's fine. I wasn't going to pay what Kia dealers were wanting for it then, either.



To be clear, I did not call you stupid. If you are going that route, you've basically called me "stupid" multiple times, telling me how wrong I was about things (that I was not actually wrong about).



Do you read what I write, or do you just assume that I'm automatically wrong? My point was that whether you take 0% financing and save $7500 on interest or whether you take the $7500 off the price of the car, you are getting roughly $7500 off. Granted, in both cases it is likely more than $7,500; you've made the comment about how you'd save more than $7500 on interest and, in most states, you'll save the cost of sales tax since they are taking off the $7500 off the price of the car. Or are you thinking that Kia isn't paying the $7500 to the finance company, instead of you, so they will give you the 0% interest? Again, both ways you are saving the $7500 off the price of the car, the only difference is whether it is off the sales price or off the interest charged -- which is why I stated the argument was pointless.



That's nice. Yes, you don't get any equity. Instead, you can let the car go or pay the residual value, likely getting a loan, to purchase the car. The point here was the person had $15,000 taken off the price of the car (what the lease company paid) and so was making extremely low payments (something like $300/month) for the EV6. And, if the car has lost half its value (as you are talking about with EVs, even though it has happened with popular gasoline cars, as well), then he can still buy a new car without the worry of being "upside down" on a loan for a car he "purchased."



I'm not saying it is all a conspiracy, I'm stating that -- much like you did when we first started talking -- you exaggerated the claims about EVs. The differences are far less than what is claimed about them. Prices are not twice as much, they've gotten to about $10K -- and Tesla's Model Y is likely pretty close to equivalent pricing to a gas SUV, even before you take the tax credit (which can be applied at purchase) off the Model Y.

What I'm saying is, despite the issues you claim, EVs are great cars now and work for a lot of Americans. I've pointed out they are perfect for most any family as a second car. For many people, but not you, they are even great as a primary vehicle. They are cheaper to run on a day to day basis, there is little maintenance on them (largely tires, windshield wipers, and a 12-volt battery every few years). There is no oil or most other fluids -- there is coolant but that is maybe every decade that it needs to be change, so not something most will every have to do. Brakes, because of regenerative braking, last far longer (maybe "forever" for many drivers). On top of that, they tend to be "faster" (instant torque) and smoother, no noxious emissions, etc. They aren't perfect but they are very good, though they do require a bit of "re-training" to understand the differences.

For me, I don't drive, but I am on the line about EVs. The battery technology is not there yet for cold weather, and I am waiting for Toyota to release a solid-state battery, which uses less material compared to conventional EV batteries.

Here is an analysis of hybrids vs battery electric cars (BEVs). For me, the plug in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) would make the best choice for most individuals who drive a lot, and live in colder climates. Woo, too many acronyms in my sentence for one day.

1. Cold Weather:
   • PHEVs: Since PHEVs have a gasoline engine, they are less affected by cold weather as compared to BEVs. The gasoline engine can help heat the cabin and provide power when electric batteries lose efficiency in cold conditions.
   • BEVs: Cold weather significantly impacts the driving range of BEVs as the battery's efficiency drops due to lower temperatures. Heating the cabin also consumes a considerable amount of electricity, further reducing the range.
2. Travel Distances:
   • PHEVs: PHEVs offer more flexibility when it comes to travel distances as they have a gasoline engine for backup. This makes them suitable for longer trips, especially in areas where charging infrastructure is limited or unreliable.
   • BEVs: Since BEVs rely solely on electricity stored in their batteries, they have a more limited driving range compared to PHEVs or traditional gasoline vehicles. Longer trips require careful planning and access to charging infrastructure along the way.
3. Charging:
   • PHEVs: PHEVs can be charged from an external source, but they also have a gasoline engine for backup. This means that while they can be charged faster than BEVs using conventional charging methods, they are not as dependent on charging infrastructure as BEVs.
   • BEVs: BEVs need to be charged from an external source before use, and their charging time depends on the type of charger used. Fast-charging options are available but not as widespread or accessible as conventional charging stations.
4. Cost:
   • PHEVs: PHEVs generally have a higher upfront cost compared to traditional gasoline vehicles due to their advanced technology and added battery system. However, they may offer tax incentives and lower operating costs since they can run on electricity for shorter distances. PHEVS are also cheaper to buy compared to pure electric vehicles (BEVS)
   • BEVs: BEVs have a higher upfront cost compared to both PHEVs and traditional gasoline vehicles due to their advanced technology and battery system. However, they offer lower operating costs as electricity is generally less expensive than gasoline in the long run.