The Trinity

[razzelflabben]

I've had this debate with Jehovah witness's a few weeks ago regarding the Trinity.
I believe the Trinity is Bible based. But then I wondered does it really matter in relation to my salvation?
I'm not sure of the answer, I think in most part because as humans we cannot fully understand the concept of a three in one God. I have always compared it to the three states of water, liquid, solid and steam.

it absolutely matters...first because it identifies who we believe in with our hearts....second because it testifies to whether or not the HS is in our lives and speaking through us....third, because it is the only way salvation could come to man, without it, we cannot be saved.

 

[7xlightray]

I believe the Trinity is Bible based. But then I wondered does it really matter in relation to my salvation?
I'm not sure of the answer, I think in most part because as humans we cannot fully understand the concept of a three in one God.

Does it matter to God, or to our salvation?
Think God canceled the First Greatest Commandment?
Are we to obey the two greatest commandments?

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world [G2889 – kosmos, this is not the word for “age” but for all the earth, everyone, all nation] those things [plural] which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

Jesus did not just speak to the Jews, but to all, the world.

Must we obey the second greatest commandment?...
There is a big misconception on what Paul taught.

Romans 13:8 (KJV) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law [as you can see this refers to the second greatest commandment]. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law [which is summed up in the second greatest commandment].

Romans 8:3-5 (KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1 Timothy 4:16 (KJV) Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Doctrine is very important, because God is truth. And God is love.

Romans 2:6 (KJV) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuancein well doingseek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life [those that seek these thing in well doing obeying the truth will receive eternal life]: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth [that would mean we would need to obey the truth], but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath [G3709 – orgē (1 Thessalonians 5:9)],

1 Thessalonians 5:9(KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath [G3709 – orgē (Romans 2:8)], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Paul teaches we must obey the Second Greatest Commandment, and the truth, and the doctrine.

What does John say?
This is a requirement of being born of God...

1 John 4:7 (KJV) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Can you receive eternal life if you are not born of God?

1 John 4:8 (KJV) He that loveth notknoweth not God [is this not eternal life to know God? John 17:3]; for God is love.

1 John 4:20 (KJV) If a man say, I love God [is this not the second half of the first greatest commandment of all? think the first half has been canceled? There's a hint of the first half in 1 John 4:8 which is to know you the Only true God], and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God [are these not the second half of first, and second greatest commandment of all?] whom he hath not seen?

The First Greatest Commandment comes in two parts:
The First part: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord,”
And the Second part: “thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.”

1 John 3:10 (KJV) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) Whosoever hateth his brotheris a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hatheternal life abiding in him.

1 John 3:23 (KJV) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ [think we have to obey this commandment? What happens if we don't obey this commandment? John 3:18], and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

That commandment, is the second greatest commandment, think we have to obey that commandment? What happens if we don't obey this commandment? - 1 John 3:10,14,15.

1 John 3:14 (KJV) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 4:21 (KJV) And this commandmenthave we from him, That he wholoveth Godlove his brother also.

Did you notice in the above passages John is sayings we are to obey the second greatest commandment of all “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,” and obey the second half of the first greatest commandment of all “thou shalt love the LORD thy God...?” If we are to obey these, think God canceled the first half of the first greatest commandment “The LORD our God is one LORD”, even after what is said in Acts 17:29-30, that He is not overlooking this anymore? 1 Corinthians 5:10-11; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 10:7; Ephesians 5:5; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 22:15.

Did you also notice how 1 John 3:23 combined the commandment many love to stand on alone “believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ” with “love one another.” It's not believe on Jesus with our mind alone, as 1 John 3:14 makes very clear.

If you don't love your brother, you don't love God, or know Him, and are not born of God. That is pretty clear, and straight forward.

Think God canceled the First Greatest Commandment?
Does it matter to God, or to our salvation, as to how we imagine, or think God to be?

Acts 17:29 (KJV) Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God [Father], we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, gravenby art and man's device [G1761 – enthymēsis - thinking, thought, pondering, imagination, consideration (what man thinks up by his own understanding, so scripture mustclearly teach us who God is)]. 30 And [G3303 – men - truly, or certainly, (so we need to pay close attention to what he is about to say)] the times of this ignorance God winked at [G5237 – hyperoraō - to overlook, (God had overlooked the worship of other gods)]; but now commandeth all men every where to repent [of other gods, seeing as it is so very important to know who this true God is and repent of all other gods, scripture must clearly tell us who this God is, and it does]: 31 Because he[Father] hath appointed a day, in the which he [Father] will judge the world in righteousness by that man [Jesus] whom he [Father] hath ordained; whereof he[Father] hath given assurance unto all men, in that he [Father, who gives life to all]hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead [who raised Jesus from the dead?].

John 17:1 (KJV) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father [it is the Father he is speaking to, no one else], the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power [G1849 - exousia - power of choice, authority, liberty of doing as one pleases] over all flesh, that he shouldgive eternal lifeto as many as thou [Father] hast given him [Jesus]. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God [Acts 17:29-31, Jesus is the Son, God is the Father, and that is Who Jesus is talking to], and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent [Who sent Jesus Christ? If for any reason this passage does not make it clear 1 John 4:14].

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily [surely, surely, or truly, truly], I say unto you, He that heareth my [Jesus] word [understands and believes what Jesus taught], and believeth on him [Father, who sent Jesus?] that sent me [Jesus, John 6:57; John 17:1,3; 1 John 4:14], hath everlasting life [through Jesus we believe in the Father, if we don't have the Son we don't have the Father, Jesus is the stumbling stone even unto this day], and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here are those passages many love to stand on for salvation, but don't really comprehend...

Romans 4:24(KJV) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him [so we better be sure who “him” is] that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead[who raised Jesus from the dead? The Father Romans 6:4; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:17-20];

Romans 10:9 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth [using your mouth is a doing 2 Corinthians 4:13-14, but it's not all of the doing: for we must also must continue, for we also have to love, do we not? for there are those who boast in appearance but not in heart, who have a flattering tongue.] the Lord Jesus [and lets not forget 2 Timothy 2:19], and shalt believe in thine heart that God [which God? the Trinity? the Son? the Father? who raised him from the dead, what does scripture say? because this is whom we must believe in our heart. The Father Romans 6:4; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:17-20] hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

We must believe in our heart, in the God, that raised Jesus from the dead.

And that God is, the Father. The Only true God!

 

[7xlightray]

huh? you said nothing at all that was directed at my post which you quoted as if you were responding to me....

Are you djkms?
No!

I was responding to djkms, in my post #412, which you chose to responded to my post, which was for djkms.

 

[razzelflabben]

Are you djkms?
No!

I was responding to djkms, in my post #412, which you chose to responded to my post, which was for djkms.

yet you quoted my post...which is the problem, if you don't want to talk to me, don't quote my post then respond it's a really simple and loving thing to do.

 

[justlookinla]

so now, since God doesn't think and do math like man does, it isn't possible? What happened to Is 55:8, did you cut it from your Bible? But as I said, some here are trying to see with the flesh what only the spirit can see...creates quite a problems your right, there isn't one scripture, there are several places in scripture where Jesus is said to be fully God (not with exact wording, that is such a lame excuse to dismiss things clearly stated in scripture) ....but the none trinitarians just pretend they aren't there, so no need pointing them out to you.

This isn't about math, it's about if Jesus is God, with His own will, and one with God who isn't Him.

 

[justlookinla]

it absolutely matters...first because it identifies who we believe in with our hearts....second because it testifies to whether or not the HS is in our lives and speaking through us....third, because it is the only way salvation could come to man, without it, we cannot be saved.

If we believe in our hearts that Jesus the Christ is Lord and savior, our redeemer, why wouldn't that be enough?

 

[7xlightray]

yet you quoted my post...which is the problem, if you don't want to talk to me, don't quote my post then respond it's a really simple and loving thing to do.

I was explaining to you why I wrote that post #412, because you were saying I wrote it for another reason.

I was trying to explain to you, I did not write that post #412, for the reasons you say I did.

So, I was responding to your post, that you posted to me, as to why I wrote that post #412 to djkms. Please, at least try to get it straight.

This is my last word on this whole subject. And any other responses from you on this matter, I refer you to those posts, to reread them, and try to understand them yourself; or maybe try asking someone else to explain it to you, because you sure are not able to understand anything I explain to you.

 

[razzelflabben]

This isn't about math, it's about if Jesus is God, with His own will, and one with God who isn't Him.

and yet I am NOT the one who claimed the math didn't add up...maybe you should talk to the one who did....

 

[razzelflabben]

If we believe in our hearts that Jesus the Christ is Lord and savior, our redeemer, why wouldn't that be enough?

who do you believe Jesus is? The name Jesus was very common in biblical days, which one are you believing in? You see, how do you know who you believe in if you don't even know who Jesus is?

 

[razzelflabben]

I was explaining to you why I wrote that post #412, because you were saying I wrote it for another reason.

I was trying to explain to you, I did not write that post #412, for the reasons you say I did.

So, I was responding to your post, that you posted to me, as to why I wrote that post #412 to djkms. Please, at least try to get it straight.

This is my last word on this whole subject. And any other responses from you on this matter, I refer you to those posts, to reread them, and try to understand them yourself; or maybe try asking someone else to explain it to you, because you sure are not able to understand anything I explain to you.

lol and you wonder why some of us find your posts disturbing....

 

[justlookinla]

who do you believe Jesus is? The name Jesus was very common in biblical days, which one are you believing in? You see, how do you know who you believe in if you don't even know who Jesus is?

I believe He's the Christ, the Son of God, our redeemer (by His blood), savior, the Lamb of God that takes away sin.

 

[donfish06]

Not only that, but He and we are one....

Joh 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

Exactly. But that is a different topic.

Matt 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus = Emmanuel = God with us. Jesus = God with us. If you stopped trying so hard to miss it you would see it easily.

 

[donfish06]

All that matters to your salvation is love of, and belief in, Jesus.

If the trinity mattered for salvation, it would be spelled out clearly in the Bible, which it is not.

FALSE

Jesus tells us we are to eat of EVERY word of God. Christ IS the Word. If we have a false understanding of who He is, how can we believe in him?

That would be like me saying, "yes I believe in santa claus, he was the best basketball player ever!"

Matt 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are people who BELIEVE in him, but they didn't KNOW him. He is the Word, they didn't KNOW the word. It wasn't enough to believe in him, and obviously those doing the great works in his name would say that they love him. It is about a personal relationship. If you say you have one with him, and say that he isn't God, then you don't know him, thus you CANT love him.

 

[justlookinla]

Exactly. But that is a different topic.

Matt 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus = Emmanuel = God with us. Jesus = God with us. If you stopped trying so hard to miss it you would see it easily.

No doubt, God was in Christ.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

FALSE

Jesus tells us we are to eat of EVERY word of God. Christ IS the Word. If we have a false understanding of who He is, how can we believe in him?

That would be like me saying, "yes I believe in santa claus, he was the best basketball player ever!"

Matt 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are people who BELIEVE in him, but they didn't KNOW him. He is the Word, they didn't KNOW the word. It wasn't enough to believe in him, and obviously those doing the great works in his name would say that they love him. It is about a personal relationship. If you say you have one with him, and say that he isn't God, then you don't know him, thus you CANT love him.

I was speaking simply of salvation.

Hmm. I think I said it correctly.

 

[razzelflabben]

I believe He's the Christ, the Son of God, our redeemer (by His blood), savior, the Lamb of God that takes away sin.

Scripture tells us that only those that are powered by the HS can confess that He is Lord. Seems to me you missed that one, how come?

 

[justlookinla]

Scripture tells us that only those that are powered by the HS can confess that He is Lord. Seems to me you missed that one, how come?

I haven't missed anything, I confess that He's Lord and savior....and everything else I indicated in my last post. I submit to Him as Lord and savior, pray to Him as Lord and savior and live for Him as Lord and savior.

Convincing you that I'm a Christian isn't the purpose here. Determining if Jesus is God is the purpose.

 

[razzelflabben]

I haven't missed anything, I confess that He's Lord and savior....and everything else I indicated in my last post. I submit to Him as Lord and savior, pray to Him as Lord and savior and live for Him as Lord and savior.

Convincing you that I'm a Christian isn't the purpose here. Determining if Jesus is God is the purpose.

wait one moment! I said absolutely nothing at all about whether you were or were not a Christian...and for you to accuse me of such is slander at best. In fact, I will be expecting an apology though I'm pretty sure you won't offer one.

What I did say is that scripture tells us that only those that are speaking by the HS can confess that Jesus is Lord...I then pointed out that you left that out of your answer to the question....leaving it out could be for a variety of reasons, so therefore we cannot and dare not offer judgement as you accuse me falsely of doing.

But since we are on the topic...what does "Jesus is Lord" mean? In scripture there are two uses for the word Lord/lord....lower case always referring to a human being, as in a husband or leader. Upper case always referring to God, Yahweh, Jehovah....so basically scripture tells us that only those who are living in the power of the HS can confess with truth and understanding that Jesus is God.

WE can add to this understanding with this passage...Matthew 7:21 where confession must be followed by obedience...you see, I spoke on this thread about the evidence of the HS within me when I was accused of not being a believer, but I refrained from the same sinful acts against you because of the obedience that follows confession of Jesus being Lord, aka God.

 

[str8_TALK]

...In scripture there are two uses for the word Lord/lord....lower case always referring to a human being, as in a husband or leader. Upper case always referring to God, Yahweh, Jehova...

Neither “lower case” nor “upper case” in English Bible translations is a reliable way to determine the intent of the original languages, which is why there is a lot of confusion when reading the English Bible, no matter which translation is being used. The original respective languages bring the distinction between the true and living God, (the Father; the God of Abraham) and this one God’s Son, Jesus Christ.

A good example of this is found in Psalm 110:1 where David clearly distinguishes between the LORD God and his Lord Messiah:

“The LORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” Psalm 110:1

The English translation of Psalm 110:1 hides the Hebrew language’s stark differentiation between “LORD” in all caps and “Lord” in small case letters. The first “LORD” is “Adonai” which appears 449 times in the Hebrew scriptures and always refers to the one supreme Most High God.

The second “Lord” addressed in Psalm 110:1 is “adoni” which appears 195 in the Hebrew scriptures and never means the one supreme Most High God, but, rather, refers to a human (or occasionally angelic) superior (master). For example, Sarah refers to Abraham as “Lord” (adoni) in Genesis 18:12.

“ADONAI” and “adoni” show the biblical distinction between the one true LORD God and the Messiah, Son of the one true LORD God. Psalm 110:1 is worthy of particular attention because it is repeated over 25 times in the New Testament and correlates closely with I Cor. 15:24-28:

“Then the end will come, when he (Christ) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself, who put everything under Christ.

When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to Him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

The Son is always subject to the Father. David knew Who His God (the Most High) was, and he knew who his Lord (master/Messiah) was. Paul understood this distinction also. So should we.

 

[razzelflabben]

Neither “lower case” nor “upper case” in English Bible translations is a reliable way to determine the intent of the original languages, which is why there is a lot of confusion when reading the English Bible, no matter which translation is being used. The original respective languages bring the distinction between the true and living God, (the Father; the God of Abraham) and this one God’s Son, Jesus Christ.

you seriously try to hard to dismiss truths in the bible. Look it up in Thayers (you know the translational authority) the easiest way I have found is through Strong's on line which will give you some more help as well...of course you could take Hebrew and Greek like my husband did, which is very helpful to questions like this, but few people today have the time and even fewer care enough to know the real God of the Bible to put the time in.

Let me just cut a short portion from the Lexicon.. this title is given to: God, the Messiah...now keep in mind that the Lexicon only offers translation of words from the original lang. whether greek or hebrew, no agenda other than accurate translation of lang. most of us will never bother to learn.

A good example of this is found in Psalm 110:1 where David clearly distinguishes between the LORD God and his Lord Messiah:

“The LORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” Psalm 110:1

no discrepancy in the Ps. passage and what I told you if you really grasp what is being said about Jesus deity, which of course your posts show an unwillingness to hear anything but your own opinion, so not surprising. Sorry that was so harsh but gentler ways of asking you to follow scripture when it says to be slow to speak and quick to listen have failed and so in Love I tell you that until you decide to hear something other than your own opinion, you will never be able to grasp truth no matter who is speaking it, because when all you do is listen to your own opinion, you can't even hear God which is also evidenced in your posts when you ignore scriptures by dismissing what they clearly say as you do above.

The English translation of Psalm 110:1 hides the Hebrew language’s stark differentiation between “LORD” in all caps and “Lord” in small case letters. The first “LORD” is “Adonai” which appears 449 times in the Hebrew scriptures and always refers to the one supreme Most High God.

again, Jesus seeing God the Father as Father and Lord does not dismiss His deity at all if you take time to listen to what is being said both by me and by scripture and others here who have pointed it out to you. And here is the real kicker, we don't even have to find ways around scripture that are not legitamate to come to the understanding we do, like the gymnastics you have to preform to come to your conclusions.

The second “Lord” addressed in Psalm 110:1 is “adoni” which appears 195 in the Hebrew scriptures and never means the one supreme Most High God, but, rather, refers to a human (or occasionally angelic) superior (master). For example, Sarah refers to Abraham as “Lord” (adoni) in Genesis 18:12.

“ADONAI” and “adoni” show the biblical distinction between the one true LORD God and the Messiah, Son of the one true LORD God. Psalm 110:1 is worthy of particular attention because it is repeated over 25 times in the New Testament and correlates closely with I Cor. 15:24-28:

lol this one just tickles me...if there wasn't a distinction between the Father and Son in both doctrine, there wouldn't be a doctrine...so pointing out that there is a difference doesn't mean anything to sorting out the disagreement yet you tout it as if it settles the entire issue.

“Then the end will come, when he (Christ) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself, who put everything under Christ.

the way you interpret scripture, this isn't clear at all...just saying....

When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to Him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

The Son is always subject to the Father. David knew Who His God (the Most High) was, and he knew who his Lord (master/Messiah) was. Paul understood this distinction also. So should we.

Let me ask you a question and, this part I highlight in red tells us but I'm guessing you don't see it, which is why I am highlighting it for you....when everything is put under Jesus feet, what becomes of God the Father? Where is He and what is HE doing while Jesus reigns?