The Trinity

[justlookinla]

wait one moment! I said absolutely nothing at all about whether you were or were not a Christian...and for you to accuse me of such is slander at best. In fact, I will be expecting an apology though I'm pretty sure you won't offer one.

Go back and read the exchange very slowly. I didn't say that you claimed that I wasn't a Christian.

What I did say is that scripture tells us that only those that are speaking by the HS can confess that Jesus is Lord...I then pointed out that you left that out of your answer to the question....leaving it out could be for a variety of reasons, so therefore we cannot and dare not offer judgement as you accuse me falsely of doing.

Quote me.

But since we are on the topic...what does "Jesus is Lord" mean? In scripture there are two uses for the word Lord/lord....lower case always referring to a human being, as in a husband or leader. Upper case always referring to God, Yahweh, Jehovah....so basically scripture tells us that only those who are living in the power of the HS can confess with truth and understanding that Jesus is God.

"Jesus is Lord" means that Jesus is master.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Look up the word "kurios" in your Strongs. It's the word used for both Lord and master in scripture.

WE can add to this understanding with this passage...Matthew 7:21 where confession must be followed by obedience...you see, I spoke on this thread about the evidence of the HS within me when I was accused of not being a believer, but I refrained from the same sinful acts against you because of the obedience that follows confession of Jesus being Lord, aka God.

Jesus being master, aka Son of God.

 

[razzelflabben]

Go back and read the exchange very slowly. I didn't say that you claimed that I wasn't a Christian.

try rereading it yourself, you tried to accuse me of things I did not say.

Quote me.

already did, you are capable of reading.

"Jesus is Lord" means that Jesus is master.

according to scripture it means He is God, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that, you are too determined to just regurgitate what you have been taught to say.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

which is why it is important to understand trinity...one God, three forms, persons, manifestations, whatever term you want to put on it.

Look up the word "kurios" in your Strongs. It's the word used for both Lord and master in scripture.

I took the comment straight out of strongs as per the word used in the original text, so what is it you want me to look up that I didn't already do that is appropriate to this discussion?

Jesus being master, aka Son of God.

lol like I said, scripture says only those speaking in the power of the HS can confess that Jesus is God...that is what it says, I take scripture at it's word rather than the teachers like you are trying to do.

 

[justlookinla]

try rereading it yourself, you tried to accuse me of things I did not say. already did, you are capable of reading.

"Tried"? You didn't quote me so why not let it go. Or quote me.

according to scripture it means He is God, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that, you are too determined to just regurgitate what you have been taught to say.

You can read it however you wish, interpret it however you wish, but in the final analysis it's just your bias speaking.

which is why it is important to understand trinity...one God, three forms, persons, manifestations, whatever term you want to put on it.

I put it as a borderline schizophrenic God. Talking to Himself, sacrificing to Himself, at least two competing wills , knowing all while not knowing all, dying but incapable of dying, etc. You get the picture.

I took the comment straight out of strongs as per the word used in the original text, so what is it you want me to look up that I didn't already do that is appropriate to this discussion? lol like I said, scripture says only those speaking in the power of the HS can confess that Jesus is God...that is what it says, I take scripture at it's word rather than the teachers like you are trying to do.

I confess Jesus is Lord, per scripture. Like it or not.

 

[razzelflabben]

"Tried"? You didn't quote me so why not let it go. Or quote me.

actually, I did when I made the comment to start out with...

You can read it however you wish, interpret it however you wish, but in the final analysis it's just your bias speaking.

according to the record it is more than my bias, but doesn't matter two hoots to me personally, it's your problem not mine.

I put it as a borderline schizophrenic God. Talking to Himself, sacrificing to Himself, at least two competing wills , knowing all while not knowing all, dying but incapable of dying, etc. You get the picture.

shows your total lack of understanding of the trinity teaching but then again, your posts already demonstrated a total lack of understanding on your part, so nothing new.

I confess Jesus is Lord, per scripture. Like it or not.

????/ All I said is that you didn't include it in the list of answers you gave, nothing more or less, you are the one who made a case out of it and tried to argue away what scripture clearly says.

 

[Der Alte]

John 1:1 can just as easily be translated "and the Word was a god", depends on one's theological leanings. And no, I'm not Jehovah Witness.

To translate John 1:1 as "and the word was a god" would make John a polytheist. As a Jew he would have been a strict monotheist. For John to have unquestionably written "and the word was a god" he would have written "καὶ τίς θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος."

 

[justlookinla]

actually, I did when I made the comment to start out with...

You certainly have't quoted me where I said you were questioning my Christianity.

according to the record it is more than my bias, but doesn't matter two hoots to me personally, it's your problem not mine.

Why is it a problem?

shows your total lack of understanding of the trinity teaching but then again, your posts already demonstrated a total lack of understanding on your part, so nothing new. ????/ All I said is that you didn't include it in the list of answers you gave, nothing more or less, you are the one who made a case out of it and tried to argue away what scripture clearly says.

Don't want to comment on the schizophrenic nature of the trinity?

 

[justlookinla]

To translate John 1:1 as "and the word was a god" would make John a polytheist. As a Jew he would have been a strict monotheist. For John to have unquestionably written "and the word was a god" he would have written "καὶ τίς θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος."

I have to disagree. To view the Son of God as His God and Father would be suggestive of polytheism. Jesus had a God and Father and it was the same God and Father as Mary, per Jesus' own words and was also suggestive that Jesus' God and Father was also John's God and Father.

 

[Der Alte]

I have to disagree. To view the Son of God as His God and Father would be suggestive of polytheism. Jesus had a God and Father and it was the same God and Father as Mary, per Jesus' own words and was also suggestive that Jesus' God and Father was also John's God and Father.

There is one God! The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father.

.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, [μονογενὴς θεὸς] who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
.
Joh 12:37-41
(37) Though he [Jesus vs. 36] had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,[Jesus]
(38) so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
(39) Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
(40) "He [YHWH] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."[Is 53:1]
(41) Isaiah said these things because he saw his* [Jesus] glory and spoke of him.*[Jesus][Isa 6:1 * יהוה/YHWH]
.
Joh_5:18 [John speaking] This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
.
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" ​

 

[justlookinla]

There is one God! The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father.

Simply repeating trinitarian belief doesn't prove trinitarian belief.

.

Joh 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, [μονογενὴς θεὸς] who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
.
Joh 12:37-41
(37) Though he [Jesus vs. 36] had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,[Jesus]
(38) so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
(39) Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
(40) "He [YHWH] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."[Is 53:1]
(41) Isaiah said these things because he saw his* [Jesus] glory and spoke of him.*[Jesus][Isa 6:1 * יהוה/YHWH]

.
Joh_5:18 [John speaking] This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
.
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

God was the Father of Jesus.....and also the Father was the God of Jesus. Jesus was not the God of the Father.

 

[Der Alte]

Simply repeating trinitarian belief doesn't prove trinitarian belief.

Repeating an anti-Trinitarian mantra does not address or refute what I said. I did more than repeat Trinitarian belief. I posted scripture which you ignored.

God was the Father of Jesus.....and also the Father was the God of Jesus. Jesus was not the God of the Father.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, [μονογενὴς θεὸς] who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
.
Joh 12:37-41
(37) Though he [Jesus vs. 36] had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,[Jesus]
(38) so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
(39) Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
(40) "He [YHWH] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."[Is 53:1]
(41) Isaiah said these things because he saw his* [Jesus] glory and spoke of him.*[Jesus][Isa 6:1 * יהוה/YHWH]
.
Joh_5:18 [John speaking] This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
.
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" ​

 

[justlookinla]

Repeating an anti-Trinitarian mantra does not address or refute what I said. I did more than repeat Trinitarian belief. I posted scripture which you ignored.

We can get into a scripture battle if you wish, you post scripture then I'll post scripture and then you'll post scripture and then I'll post scripture, on and on.

Joh 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, [μονογενὴς θεὸς] who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
.

Joh 12:37-41
(37) Though he [Jesus vs. 36] had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,[Jesus]
(38) so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
(39) Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
(40) "He [YHWH] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."[Is 53:1]
(41) Isaiah said these things because he saw his* [Jesus] glory and spoke of him.*[Jesus][Isa 6:1 * יהוה/YHWH]
.
Joh_5:18 [John speaking] This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
.
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (Which God is good Jesus or the Father?

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Jesus God doesn't have the knowledge of Father God. Two Gods, one less knowing than the other.)

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Jesus God will is different than Father God will?)

Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (Jesus's God and Mary's God was the same God. Jesus wasn't Mary's God nor was Jesus His own God. )

 

[Dialogist]

If God is not triune, how would that change anything regarding Christian faith?

There is a very good discussion about God as Trinity in Kallistos Ware's book, The Orthodox Way. He makes the following points:

• If we believe that God is personal and God is love, then this implies sharing and reciprocity.
• Persons cannot live as isolated individuals. We are not authentic persons if we are isolated and self-dependent "units." We become real persons through our relations with other real persons.
• Similarly, love cannot live in isolation. Self-love is not true love. Self-centeredness and self-love signify the end of all joy and meaning in life.

For these reasons, we can understand the Holy Trinity as a manifestation of God as person and God as love. Metropolitan Kallistos further explains this as follows:

Personhood and love signify life, movement, discovery. So the doctrine of the Trinity means that we should think of God in terms that are dynamic rather than static. God is not just stillness, repose, unchanging perfection. For our images of the Trinitarian God we should look rather to the wind, to the running water, to the unresting flames of fire. A favorite analogy for the Trinity has always been that of the three torches burning with a single flame. We are told in The Sayings of the Desert Fathers how a brother once came to talk with Abba Joseph of Panepho. "Abba," said the visitor, "according to my strength I observe a modest rule of prayer and fasting, of reading and silence, and so far as I can I keep myself pure in my thoughts. What more can I do?" In answer, Abba Joseph rose to his feet and held up his hands towards the sky; and his fingers became as ten blazing torches. And the old man said to the brother: "If you wish, you can become completely as a flam." If this image of the living flame helps us to understand man's nature at its highest, can it not also be applied to God? The three persons of the Trinity are "completely as a flame."

There is also a rather drier, theological answer to your question I think. If confessing the Holy Trinity is, in fact, heresy, then the vast majority of those who call themselves Christians are and were, in fact, outside the Church. We would have to reject all Scripture wherein the Trinity is revealed as false and therefore question the authority of Scripture overall. We would have to accept either that (1) the true faith is held by some non-Trinitarian sect somewhere or (2) no one group or individuals hold the true faith because either no one has been fortunate to receive it or because there really is no such thing as truth.

​

 

[razzelflabben]

You certainly have't quoted me where I said you were questioning my Christianity.

I did in the post where I responded to it...now, I have had enough non sense for the day and the day has barely begun....moving on, I get you don't want to apologize but I forgive you none the less.

Why is it a problem?

because it was sinful and thus contrary to God.

Don't want to comment on the schizophrenic nature of the trinity?

there isn't one if you understand trinity but then again, I am confident you know that you just want to be difficult to see how many people you can sway from the truth. Which is exactly why my comments to you are becoming shorter and shorter

 

[razzelflabben]

I have to disagree. To view the Son of God as His God and Father would be suggestive of polytheism. Jesus had a God and Father and it was the same God and Father as Mary, per Jesus' own words and was also suggestive that Jesus' God and Father was also John's God and Father.

Jesus, being God in the flesh, being one with God, being God Himself, means that there is not even a hint of polytheism in the teaching. It is only when you try to change the teaching that the issue of polytheism comes up, which is an easy enough concept you all have repeatedly been shown but fail to incorporate into your discussions.

Responding to the discussion not this post in general, using this post as a jumping off point

 

[razzelflabben]

Simply repeating trinitarian belief doesn't prove trinitarian belief.

now, since I am the only one here saying this, let me point out to you how rude and uncalled for that comment is since evidence was provided and you all are simply ignoring it. You all have flamed me enough over this, at least be brave enough to attack only me and stop trying to flame everyone else as well....it's really quite shameful behavior to boil your argument down to who you can chase away with insults and false accusations as you all are doing here. And yes, this is mild, but the evidence was given and ignored.

 

[razzelflabben]

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (Which God is good Jesus or the Father?

I know this isn't directed at me, but it is a great question and I want to answer cause it is the first great question offered so far....Jesus, being fully God and fully man, has a man nature. Scripture says that that nature is an evil nature and needs to be replaced with God's nature through the indwelling HS. IOW's the only way Jesus as being fully man could be without sin, is to be so filled with the HS that they are one in the same. That human nature however, was subject to all the same temptations and trials and such that we all face, just look at the temptations of Christ if you don't believe me. As such, this verse is right on the money with trinity belief that Jesus was God in the flesh. See, Jesus here is confirming the understanding that He is flesh and blood not just an illusion of such. In other passages, ones you all don't want to look at, Jesus confirms His deity, but that is left for another post.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Jesus God doesn't have the knowledge of Father God. Two Gods, one less knowing than the other.)

Again, Jesus submitting to an authority is His revelation of who we are to be and how we are to submit. An example, Let's say that we have a police officer who has the right to use his lights to get through a traffic light when he is in a rush to go someplace but it is not an emergency call. So instead of being patient like everyone else has to do, he makes a choice, he either chooses to follow the same law, being a good example for others, or he chooses to exercise his authority and go through the red light (I have actually seen cops do this btw, so not a failed example) Jesus needed us to follow His example of how to live a righteous life, He couldn't be that example if He set Himself above us and did things that we were not able to do, He had to be a good example of what to do and not do and how to do it. I talked about this previously and you all ignored it.

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Jesus God will is different than Father God will?)

the will of the flesh is always contrary to the will of God...what does scripture say? Gal. 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want....as fully God and fully man, there would naturally be a war of wills going on, but as already pointed out, Jesus gave a perfected example of what to do when our will collides with God's will and that is to yield ourselves over in humility to God's will for it is the perfect and good will that we should all be living in.

Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (Jesus's God and Mary's God was the same God. Jesus wasn't Mary's God nor was Jesus His own God. )

I don't know how you can possibly miss this, but I see that you repeatedly do....at this point, being that Jesus had not yet been "reunited" or "restored" not sure a good word to use that you won't try to twist in meaning, with the only God nature of who He is. IOW's in the state He was in at the time, He was neither fully man nor fully God but transitioning between the two natures. Best way I can find for the flesh to explain a spiritual issue.

 

[justlookinla]

I did in the post where I responded to it...now, I have had enough non sense for the day and the day has barely begun....moving on, I get you don't want to apologize but I forgive you none the less.

I've said nothing to apologize for. Quote me if you think I have.

because it was sinful and thus contrary to God.

That's simply your opinion. It's not based on scripture.

there isn't one if you understand trinity but then again,

Neither do a lot of trinitarians understand the trinity.

I am confident you know that you just want to be difficult to see how many people you can sway from the truth.

Your accusation now is that I'm purposely, intentionally, deceiving people into believing a lie?

Which is exactly why my comments to you are becoming shorter and shorter

I comment only enough to respond to another's post. No more, no less.

 

[justlookinla]

Jesus, being God in the flesh, being one with God, being God Himself, means that there is not even a hint of polytheism in the teaching.

Of course it is. Jesus God having a God who isn't Him but someone else to whom He ascends and shares with His brothers and sisters is bordering on polytheism.

It is only when you try to change the teaching that the issue of polytheism comes up, which is an easy enough concept you all have repeatedly been shown but fail to incorporate into your discussions.

Responding to the discussion not this post in general, using this post as a jumping off point

What's being changed or challenged other than the trinity?

 

[justlookinla]

I know this isn't directed at me, but it is a great question and I want to answer cause it is the first great question offered so far....Jesus, being fully God and fully man, has a man nature.

Scripture doesn't say that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

Scripture says that that nature is an evil nature and needs to be replaced with God's nature through the indwelling HS. IOW's the only way Jesus as being fully man could be without sin, is to be so filled with the HS that they are one in the same. That human nature however, was subject to all the same temptations and trials and such that we all face, just look at the temptations of Christ if you don't believe me. As such, this verse is right on the money with trinity belief that Jesus was God in the flesh. See, Jesus here is confirming the understanding that He is flesh and blood not just an illusion of such. In other passages, ones you all don't want to look at, Jesus confirms His deity, but that is left for another post. Again, Jesus submitting to an authority is His revelation of who we are to be and how we are to submit. An example, Let's say that we have a police officer who has the right to use his lights to get through a traffic light when he is in a rush to go someplace but it is not an emergency call. So instead of being patient like everyone else has to do, he makes a choice, he either chooses to follow the same law, being a good example for others, or he chooses to exercise his authority and go through the red light (I have actually seen cops do this btw, so not a failed example) Jesus needed us to follow His example of how to live a righteous life, He couldn't be that example if He set Himself above us and did things that we were not able to do, He had to be a good example of what to do and not do and how to do it. I talked about this previously and you all ignored it. the will of the flesh is always contrary to the will of God...what does scripture say? Gal. 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want....as fully God and fully man, there would naturally be a war of wills going on, but as already pointed out, Jesus gave a perfected example of what to do when our will collides with God's will and that is to yield ourselves over in humility to God's will for it is the perfect and good will that we should all be living in. I don't know how you can possibly miss this, but I see that you repeatedly do....at this point, being that Jesus had not yet been "reunited" or "restored" not sure a good word to use that you won't try to twist in meaning, with the only God nature of who He is. IOW's in the state He was in at the time, He was neither fully man nor fully God but transitioning between the two natures. Best way I can find for the flesh to explain a spiritual issue.

There are too many personal assumptions in the post to respond to.

 

[razzelflabben]

I've said nothing to apologize for. Quote me if you think I have.

That's simply your opinion. It's not based on scripture.

Judging others is not addressed in scripture? Matthew 7:1

Neither do a lot of trinitarians understand the trinity.

fair enough...but, if you are going to argue against trinity doctrine, you have to know and understand trinity doctrine or you just sound foolish. And before you go off on some bunny path, this is true for any doctrine one wants to argue against. In order to even sound remotely knowledgeable, you have to know and understand not only what you are arguing for but what you are arguing against.

Your accusation now is that I'm purposely, intentionally, deceiving people into believing a lie?

not what I said, but since your interpretations skills have not proven to be the best as per this thread, I'm not going to argue, I'm just going to point out that that is NOT even close to what I really did say.

I comment only enough to respond to another's post. No more, no less.

?????