The Trinity

[razzelflabben]

Well then, here's where we stand.

The New Testament is the Word of God. At least, that's what just about every Christian church of whatever denomination holds true.

In the New Testament, it is clearly stated that the three persona (as the Council of Nicaea chose to word it) of God are separate but yet not different individuals or entities. There is but one God. Nor are these merely different names, used according to the role played by God at different times.

But since you steadfastly refuse to hear of the New Testament's witness, you also refuse the proofs of the Trinity that are in God's word. That means that nothing more can be done here.

The OT both uses the plural in Gen for God which can be argued away, but also talks about the Spirit of God doing different things from the God residing in heaven. In addition, the OT talks about the coming Messiah, which would then, include all three "parts" of the triune God, 3 yet 1

 

[razzelflabben]

What church believes that the OT is not the Word of God?

I fully believe that the NT is the Word of God, but just as well is the OT.


Over and over you refuse to answer my questions. You cannot answer them because the answer will prove your catholic theology WRONG. I'm asking an honest question.. why will you not answer the question? The very fact that you REFUSE to answer it shows that you KNOW that it will blow holes in your catholic trinity theology. If you know that will happen, and still decide to believe the way you believe, then nothing more can be done here. You can talk your way out of it all you want. I use God's Word. Not the Nicene (catholic) creed. Hogwash!

ANYBODY ON HERE THAT HAS MORE CONFIDENCE IN THE TRINITY PLEASE TELL ME WHICH PART OF THE TRINITY IS JEHOVAH?

UNTIL SOMEONE ANSWERS, I REST MY CASE. THE BURDEN IS ON YOU

answered....and it wasn't even a hard question. How about asking a hard question, one that takes time to research?

 

[JustHisKid]

how pray tell does that address what I said? Oh never mind, it is impossible to make a convincing case for the job of the HS to be to suffer and die for our sins, just like Jesus job was to suffer and die for our sins and to make matters worse, that God the Father's just was to suffer and die for our sins. I mean that is just an impossible. To further complicate the matter, Jesus said He would go and send the comforter (aka HS) so if they have the same role, how is it possible that Jesus was able to say it is finished on the cross but also that He would send another to work that which He did not do? And then we go to Colossians which talks about the unfinished work of Christ. But I already talked about all this....so, moving on....as I also said, one could argue that the goal or end purpose was the same, that of bringing all men to a right relationship with God, which is not only a case that could be made, but one that would have validity and one that seems more to the heart of those who claim the Father, Son, and HS all have the same role. But all that was overlooked so you could accuse me of having a tone because I told you that the comment was irrelevant to the point I was making which was about semantics. You know, trying to put fleshly words on something only the spirit can comprehend. So maybe you should show how a discussion about the roles of the trinity being exactly the same, is relevant to a comment about semantics coming into play when we are talking about trying to define with our flesh what only the spirit can understand? See, even though I find no relevance and you have not shown any, I did address the point you were making and you didn't respond to that, which says to me that the comment was in fact, irrelevant or you would have addressed the comments I made that were relevant rather than going on about me pointing out that it was irrelevant to the point I was making...but hey, water under the bridge, you have another chance to respond to my response of your comments.

I have no argument against these points. Hopefully donfish06, the one who does, will respond.

 

[razzelflabben]

I have no argument against these points. Hopefully donfish06, the one who does, will respond.

hopefully

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
I think you are possibly very patient and giving JustHisKid. I only said possibly because I did not do the work so far to find out.
The above comment, says that even though you asked the question of If the triune God were not real, how would that change Chrisitianity, when someone else is learning something apart from your question, you, let it go, until that person learns.
I like that in you.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[JustHisKid]

Hi,
I think you are possibly very patient and giving JustHisKid. I only said possibly because I did not do the work so far to find out.
The above comment, says that even though you asked the question of If the triune God were not real, how would that change Chrisitianity, when someone else is learning something apart from your question, you, let it go, until that person learns.
I like that in you.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Wow, thanks. I didn't see that coming. I appreciate it very much.

 

[7xlightray]

Do you believe Jesus is a created being?

You did not understand Isaiah 45:4-5?

I say and ask these things, in general, to whomever.

Is man a created being? Was Jesus a man? Was Jesus's “flesh” created? Can an immortal God die?

Obviously his flesh was not God, for they took down his lifeless body from the cross, and lay it in a tomb. What about his soul, his God person? If his soul did not die, our soul is not paid for either. Or if, as it is claimed, Adam was created with an eternal spirit person, when God breathed into him (but not by me, Adam was given the breath of life, and became a living soul, so this is a strange argument for me to make, and is even more odd, because many claim the Son is not the Spirit, nor is the Spirit the Son), and God left Jesus while on the cross, and then Jesus gave up his spirit, then our spirit person is not paid for either. God's Law is, life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe, and not just what we do, but even what we think. If God left him while on the cross, then who's spirit did he give up, after God left him? Was it not simplely the breath of life he gave up, as Adam had, who was not spiritual, but earthly, Jesus being the spiritual man, with the fulness of God dwelling in him.

What part of God died, and paid for our sins? Are you (I mean that in general way) saying Jesus the immortal God person died? What part, of an immortal God, can die? What part of an immortal God, can become creation and die, read Romans 1 carefully?

What does John say we must confess, I am referring to; when Jesus returns 2 John 1:7; Luke 21:27, will he return as God, or man? What does John say we must confess, what are the others confessing? ...a man sits on God's throne as God. Who does it sound like your reading about, when you read this passage Isaiah 14:12-16 (you will notice this could not refer to a man on earth, as many claim)?

Jesus had the fullness of God without meassure dwell in him; the Word of life, which is God the Father's power, Spirit, breath, truth, light, this is He who came down to his own. I do not mean to say the Father left heaven, nor that Jesus and the Father are one and the same. It was the Father in John 1 that came to his own (1 John 1 gives understanding to John 1, you will notice if you read carefully 1 John 1 this speaks of the Father, as verse 7 reveals) and his own did not recongnize Him in His Son, who is the image of his Father, and in whom the Father dwelt and worked (Jesus our example, as God should be working in us to will and to do) 2 Corinthians 5:19. How can you be the one you are the image of? You would not be an image of that One, you would be that One. How can you be equal to God, and be that God? If the five apples in my left hand, equaled the five apples in my right hand, then they cannot be the five apples in my right, otherwise they would not be equal, they would be those in my right. And they not knowing and recognizing the Father, rejected the Father, when they rejected Christ Psalm 69:9 .

2 John 1:7(KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ(anointed) is come (G2064: ἐρχόμενον Present Tense, notice the different spelling from 1 John 4:2,3 (which is Perfect Tense ἐληλυθότα), this spelling “ἐρχόμενον” used 17 times, as in Luke 21:27 and should read “coming” as Jesus said himself in Luke 21:27 that he would return as a man) in the flesh(man). This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

What do you claim is returning, God or man, whoever you are?

To say man is God, or God is man, would bring God's wrath, and judgement upon me Romans 1:18-32; we cannot have the wrong God, and excape these.

Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie (this is the lie of 2 Thessalonians 2:11 worshipping a man as God, not saying we can't worship Jesus, just not as the God, you will notice they worship David and YHVH 1 Chronicles 29:20, and there's Joseph and Daniel, even us, but not as God), and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I know many teach, Jesus teaching was for the Jew's only, but this is not what Jesus taught John 8:26, nor did John 2 John 1:9, or the others. John 17:3 now that is a clear plain statement by Jesus, and is eternal life.

The N/T scriptures, also tell us, who the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is. And many more proofs, and things I could say, like there is a reason why Jesus said, and told us, he did not know the day or hour Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32. That word "man" in knoweth no man (this is the word G3762 - oudeis – no one, nothing, this is not the word G444 – anthrōpos – human being, man), By using this word “G3762 – oudeis (a powerful negating conjunction that leaves no exceptions)” he is excluding all others, any name you could name, even the Holy Spirit, if you insist he is another person. Jesus is saying absolutely no one, but the Father knows. This is why Jesus confessed this...

Zechariah 14:7 (KJV) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD(God the Father is not sharing when this day is, Jesus made sure those that have ears to hear, heard), not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light(Christ's return Revelation 22:5). . .9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth (1 Corinthians 15:24 when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, Jesus will still be on the throne, but it means, we will see the Father face to face Revelation 22:4, and know as we are known, the Father will be all to all, right now we see the Father through Jesus, we see dimly, as the moon reflects the true light of the sun in a dark world, God creating two great lights, one greater then the other Genesis 1:16): in that day(do you understand “in that day” whatsoever was written before was written for us, this age) shall there be one LORD, and his name one(not Trinity).

...and why Jesus cannot be the LORD (YHVH.)

Here is something else to think about, Jesus said, it was not his to give, who sits on his left, and on his right Matthew 20:23. How could the only true highest God let those words come out of his mouth? If he preexisted, why did not he and the Father discus this; and if not back then, then he could have said, I have not returned to my Father yet. Not only this, but if he has no say in it, then he cannot be the highest God.

Judge what I say in truth, not in what you believe. For truth is very important, this is what came down, it's what sets us free.

 

[razzelflabben]

You did not understand Isaiah 45:4-5?

not sure what this intent is, but apparently not directed at the general public, so I will leave that to whomever you aimed it at.

I say and ask these things, in general, to whomever.

Is man a created being?

yes...

Was Jesus a man?

yes and no...Jesus is/was fully human and fully God and before you try to go off on some tangent, it is a concept that cannot be understood through reason or logic but only through the witness of the HS to our spirit.

Was Jesus's “flesh” created?

scripture talks about the three parts of man, the body, soul, and spirit. The body or flesh is dust, nothing more. The soul and spirit are very closely related and it is hard for man to grasp the difference. The soul, or the personality of man, his essence if really, the result of the spirit. The spirit is the breath of life. Gen. God breathed into man the breath of life. It is God's breath, as such, it returns to God when the flesh dies. Ecc. 12:7....so...the flesh of Jesus was created, the spirit was always God's to give. It sounds like maybe you haven't studied this and/or maybe you haven't yet changed your perspective to that of the spirit rather than the flesh because it appears from your post you are still trying to see with the eyes of the flesh, the eyes of dirt.

Can an immortal God die?

we can't even die in the sense you seem to be talking about here, unless of course I am misunderstanding your question. As spiritual beings, that is beings who have been given life by the spirit, we live on after our body dies and decays, no different for Jesus. His body died, but like us, His spirit lives on.

Obviously his flesh was not God, for they took down his lifeless body from the cross, and lay it in a tomb. What about his soul, his God person? If his soul did not die, our soul is not paid for either. Or if, as it is claimed, Adam was created with an eternal spirit person, when God breathed into him (but not by me, Adam was given the breath of life, and became a living soul, so this is a strange argument for me to make, and is even more odd, because many claim the Son is not the Spirit, nor is the Spirit the Son), and God left Jesus while on the cross, and then Jesus gave up his spirit, then our spirit person is not paid for either. God's Law is, life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe, and not just what we do, but even what we think. If God left him while on the cross, then who's spirit did he give up, after God left him? Was it not simplely the breath of life he gave up, as Adam had, who was not spiritual, but earthly, Jesus being the spiritual man, with the fulness of God dwelling in him.

I'm going to guess at the point you are making because I can't really know for sure. First, let's correct something....God's teaching is NOT life for life, eye for eye, etc. in fact, His teaching is the opposite thereof. Grace! But my best guess is that you are talking about sin that leads to death. Since Jesus was without sin, there was no reason to need a sacrifice for His sin.

Okay, let's go back to the OT. In the OT, an animal sacrifice was made for the sins of the people. They would take the blood of the sacrificial lamb and place that blood on the mercy seat. The mercy seat being the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, the place where God was said to sit. In the ark were items that represented the sins of man. The blood, paid for those sins with death, the consequence of sin. IOW's the consequence of sin was paid for. The problem was that the blood of animals was not equal to the blood of humans and so a human who was without sin was needed. Thus God sent His Son, Jesus the Christ who was without sin, thus able to be the blood covering that was permanent.

Now, before we move on...scripture tells us that the exact same HS that is in the believer, the HS that enables the believer to be without sin, is the exact same HS that gave Jesus the power to be without sin. the difference is that Jesus relied on that HS and we try to rely on other things. IOWs' Jesus showed us how to live a sin free life, it requires us to humble ourselves, yield ourselves and allow the HS to be our strength in times of weakness....shall we talk about Jesus weakness? II Cor. 13:4

What part of God died, and paid for our sins? Are you (I mean that in general way) saying Jesus the immortal God person died? What part, of an immortal God, can die? What part of an immortal God, can become creation and die, read Romans 1 carefully?

the same part of an immortal God can die that we die....see above....In fact, this post is pretty long and I think it best to control length, so I will kind of skip some of this until you respond to some basics above, then we can go over the rest of this in more detail, a little at a time or as scripture says, precept upon precept.

What does John say we must confess, I am referring to; when Jesus returns 2 John 1:7; Luke 21:27, will he return as God, or man? What does John say we must confess, what are the others confessing? ...a man sits on God's throne as God. Who does it sound like your reading about, when you read this passage Isaiah 14:12-16 (you will notice this could not refer to a man on earth, as many claim)?

Jesus had the fullness of God without meassure dwell in him; the Word of life, which is God the Father's power, Spirit, breath, truth, light, this is He who came down to his own. I do not mean to say the Father left heaven, nor that Jesus and the Father are one and the same. It was the Father in John 1 that came to his own (1 John 1 gives understanding to John 1, you will notice if you read carefully 1 John 1 this speaks of the Father, as verse 7 reveals) and his own did not recongnize Him in His Son, who is the image of his Father, and in whom the Father dwelt and worked (Jesus our example, as God should be working in us to will and to do) 2 Corinthians 5:19. How can you be the one you are the image of? You would not be an image of that One, you would be that One. How can you be equal to God, and be that God? If the five apples in my left hand, equaled the five apples in my right hand, then they cannot be the five apples in my right, otherwise they would not be equal, they would be those in my right. And they not knowing and recognizing the Father, rejected the Father, when they rejected Christ Psalm 69:9 .

Hebrews 2:17; Philippians 2:5-7

2 John 1:7(KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ(anointed) is come (G2064: ἐρχόμενον Present Tense, notice the different spelling from 1 John 4:2,3 (which is Perfect Tense ἐληλυθότα), this spelling “ἐρχόμενον” used 17 times, as in Luke 21:27 and should read “coming” as Jesus said himself in Luke 21:27 that he would return as a man) in the flesh(man). This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

What do you claim is returning, God or man, whoever you are?

in the case of Jesus, scripture is pretty clear that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, so the only biblical response could be both in one.

To say man is God, or God is man, would bring God's wrath, and judgement upon me Romans 1:18-32; we cannot have the wrong God, and excape these.

verse 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,C)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-27951C" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> so that people are without excuse.

Notice that the invisible nature of God is seen...aka including but not limited to Jesus the Christ.

and again, verse
25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie,J)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-27956J" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> and worshiped and served created thingsK)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-27956K" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.L)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-27956L" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> Amen.M)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-27956M" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">

Notice that Jesus is also called our creator...Col. 1:17; John 1:1; John 5:58; Hebrews 1:3; John 14:9

Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie (this is the lie of 2 Thessalonians 2:11 worshipping a man as God, not saying we can't worship Jesus, just not as the God, you will notice they worship David and YHVH 1 Chronicles 29:20, and there's Joseph and Daniel, even us, but not as God), and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

II Thess. 2:11
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Notice the delusion brings unrighteousness, whereas Jesus brings righteousness, thus not the same thing you are preaching here.

I Chronicles 29:20
20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.

Now, if we are right and Jesus is both God and man as scripture says, we are worshiping the Lord not men.

I know many teach, Jesus teaching was for the Jew's only, but this is not what Jesus taught John 8:26, nor did John 2 John 1:9, or the others. John 17:3 now that is a clear plain statement by Jesus, and is eternal life.

not sure how to respond, usually only Jew's claim that Jesus teaching was to the Jews only

The N/T scriptures, also tell us, who the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is. And many more proofs, and things I could say, like there is a reason why Jesus said, and told us, he did not know the day or hour Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32. That word "man" in knoweth no man (this is the word G3762 - oudeis – no one, nothing, this is not the word G444 – anthrōpos – human being, man), By using this word “G3762 – oudeis (a powerful negating conjunction that leaves no exceptions)” he is excluding all others, any name you could name, even the Holy Spirit, if you insist he is another person. Jesus is saying absolutely no one, but the Father knows. This is why Jesus confessed this...

Zechariah 14:7 (KJV) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD(God the Father is not sharing when this day is, Jesus made sure those that have ears to hear, heard), not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light(Christ's return Revelation 22:5). . .9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth (1 Corinthians 15:24 when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, Jesus will still be on the throne, but it means, we will see the Father face to face Revelation 22:4, and know as we are known, the Father will be all to all, right now we see the Father through Jesus, we see dimly, as the moon reflects the true light of the sun in a dark world, God creating two great lights, one greater then the other Genesis 1:16): in that day(do you understand “in that day” whatsoever was written before was written for us, this age) shall there be one LORD, and his name one(not Trinity).

it appears you are still trying to make sense of the spirit by looking through the eyes of the flesh. Remember, the flesh is dirt, mud, your looking at this through muddy eyes rather than spiritual eyes. it's normal, just not conducive to understanding the things of God.

...and why Jesus cannot be the LORD (YHVH.)

Here is something else to think about, Jesus said, it was not his to give, who sits on his left, and on his right Matthew 20:23. How could the only true highest God let those words come out of his mouth? If he preexisted, why did not he and the Father discus this; and if not back then, then he could have said, I have not returned to my Father yet. Not only this, but if he has no say in it, then he cannot be the highest God.

Judge what I say in truth, not in what you believe. For truth is very important, this is what came down, it's what sets us free.

one of the things you seem to be missing is that Jesus came to show us the way. That is why it was the power of the indwelling HS that allowed Him to be without sin, the same HS we are given. It is also why He "obeys" the Father, because it is a demonstration of who we are to be in relation to God. Likewise, we are to trust Him, just like Jesus in flesh doesn't know the day or hour is an example of trusting God. Like I said, you post seems to put too much emphasis on the fleshly understanding of a matter that only the spirit through the witness of the HS can understand.

 

[7xlightray]

Hello,
razzelflabben

Ya, you haven’t correctly represented anything I said. You really missed it. Just from this comment alone that you made "Now, if we are right and Jesus is both God and man as scripture says, we are worshiping the Lord not men," but that's ok. My point was it is permitted to worship some men, that God puts in these positions.

What part of an immortal God can die?

I will say this though, A man had to pay for the price of a man, man for man. Not lamb for man, not angel for man, and not God for man.

I already pointed out the understanding of John 1, that the understanding comes from 1 John 1, and verse seven shows it speaks of the Father, but from my understanding of you, you understand it as Word=God, Word=Jesus, therefore Jesus=God. Then a tree is God, for Word=God, Word=tree, therefor tree=God.

Colossians 1:17 does it say he created heaven and earth, or the things in heaven, and on earth, because there is a reason why it worded this way. You will notice it speaks of authorities, thrones, powers. And he (Jesus) is the one now giving them these positions, seeing he is the one, who has been put over all of God's creation, being God's king, in His kingdom. Example Revelation 12:5, 9.

In Hebrews 1:3 When did this take place? After he “purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” I can see you are not understanding the argument the writer is making; and the starting of a new argument “And”, and the contrast “but”. He is comparing Jesus to the angels, and how much greater he became after his resurrection, he would kind of lose his point if Jesus was God. All you would have to say is “he's God...End.” Verse 8 I've already shown, in a past post, the sceptre speaks of Christ. Verses 10-12 speak of the Father, verse 13 being the contrast, that it was said to the son, “sit at my right hand...” over all His creation, not an angel.

John 5:58 I don't have that verse, in my Bibles.

 

[razzelflabben]

Hello,
razzelflabben

Ya, you haven’t correctly represented anything I said. You really missed it. Just from this comment alone that you made "Now, if we are right and Jesus is both God and man as scripture says, we are worshiping the Lord not men," but that's ok. My point was it is permitted to worship some men, that God puts in these positions.

huh? The only man we are to worship is the God man Jesus Christ. None other are worthy of our worship...yet we as a people worship men all the time...so, let's say I did miss your point...please show a single passage that tells us it is okay/righteous/good to worship men. So far you have failed to provide that passage if your argument is that we are suppose to worship men that God puts in these positions. Worship is reserved for God and none other...what in fact, is the first commandment? Though shall have no other gods before me...right?

What part of an immortal God can die?

the fleshly part...remember when I showed you that scripture says that man has 3 parts, body, soul, and spirit. this is exactly why Jesus can be fully God and fully man. It is also exactly why an immortal God can die, because for an immortal God, death has no hold. Just like those of us who are in Christ. Jesus came to destroy sin and death, iow's death has no hold over an immortal God, but that doesn't mean that the flesh, the dust that He put on cannot die. Just like our flesh, our dust will die and decay and return to dust. Our flesh is just our temporary tent. II Corinthians 5:1

I will say this though, A man had to pay for the price of a man, man for man. Not lamb for man, not angel for man, and not God for man.

? that is exactly why Jesus came, which is what I already told you....your confusing me with what your point is, what you think you are arguing given I already said that a man was needed and that man was God in flesh.

I already pointed out the understanding of John 1, that the understanding comes from 1 John 1, and verse seven shows it speaks of the Father, but from my understanding of you, you understand it as Word=God, Word=Jesus, therefore Jesus=God. Then a tree is God, for Word=God, Word=tree, therefor tree=God.

Let's look at it in context, shall we? I personally prefer the HCSB so I quote from it here....verse 1-4 it's not cutting and pasting right, let me try another version....had to go to KJV for some strange reason....
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Look at the highlighted part...we have seen with fleshly eyes, our hands have touched with fleshly touch, the Word of life...

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Verse 2 clarifies even more, this is a life that was manifest you know, like God in the flesh of Jesus...a life that not only has been seen and witnessed, but shows eternal life...Jesus alone shows eternal life. But keep looking, it is a life that is also from the Father and is manifested to us...Jesus alone fits this description.

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

Notice that the purpose is fellowship with God the Father and Jesus the Christ, which is the sole reason Jesus came. Now, let's further build the case...compare I John 1:1 to John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

See, The Word is Christ and this passage combined with the context is clear on that....

Colossians 1:17 does it say he created heaven and earth, or the things in heaven, and on earth, because there is a reason why it worded this way. You will notice it speaks of authorities, thrones, powers. And he (Jesus) is the one now giving them these positions, seeing he is the one, who has been put over all of God's creation, being God's king, in His kingdom. Example Revelation 12:5, 9.

He is the creator and sustainer, He was before Abraham, before the world. Scripture is clear on this as the passages I posted testify. Many try to hand wave them away because they don't like the conclusion of the matter, but it is clear.

In Hebrews 1:3 When did this take place? After he “purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” I can see you are not understanding the argument the writer is making; and the starting of a new argument “And”, and the contrast “but”. He is comparing Jesus to the angels, and how much greater he became after his resurrection, he would kind of lose his point if Jesus was God. All you would have to say is “he's God...End.” Verse 8 I've already shown, in a past post, the sceptre speaks of Christ. Verses 10-12 speak of the Father, verse 13 being the contrast, that it was said to the son, “sit at my right hand...” over all His creation, not an angel.

John 5:58 I don't have that verse, in my Bibles.

maybe that is why you aren't understanding this, because things have been left out of your bible. "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

I am preparing to sit with my father as he dies, my ride will be here soon, when I return, if you haven't figured it out, I will look up more passages for you to dwell on. One mistake many people make however, is that because they cannot reason God the Father, Son and HS as being separate but 1, they dismiss many of the passages that tell us that He is God. Like John 5:58 for example. In context the Jews understood clearly that this was a claim of deity as are many other passages presented. The usual argument then becomes dismissing some of the writings of the bible, but to know what the bible says about God and the trinity, we cannot dismiss the passages or writers that don't say what we want them to say.

Well, like I said, I must be off in a matter of a few moments...I will return as soon as I can.

 

[razzelflabben]

while I am away, consider John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

I Peter 1:21
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

 

[razzelflabben]

I stand corrected, John 8:58, when I typed in 5:58 to cut and paste the verse it automatically switched on me and I didn't notice I had the wrong chapter, my sincere apology

 

[7xlightray]

razzelflabben

Sorry to hear about your father. Hopefully, it will be a great advantage for your father, though.

I will try and get a post off today.

 

[7xlightray]

.

I can show you all the scripture you ask, but it will have to be big posts, because God's word it like a tapestry woven together.

I think we should start from the beginning.

It sound to me like you are saying God became the actual flesh of Jesus. If so, then I present this.

You say this is how an immortal God can die, the Word became flesh.
That would mean God is not immortal. You are saying, an immortal God, can become mortal. Jesus did die, and poured out his blood, and he was dead for some time. Whether he stayed dead, or not, is not the issue, the immortal God died. The immortal God became mortal.

Did the Word become the sun, and the moon? Yes, God said..., and it was so. Then we should be sun worshippers. Hopefully, you see the error in that. Now the sun will last a long time, even though it is slowly dieing, but even if it did last forever, we know from Gods word, God is not His creation.

Isaiah 31:3 (KJV) Now the Egyptians are men (flesh), and not God (Spirit); and their horses flesh (men), and not spirit (God).

I believe God when he says that. The scripture says, God is Spirit John 4:23-24, not the Spirit is God, whoever is God is Spirit, and seeing as this was directed at the Father, the Father is Spirit. And Spirit is not flesh Luke 24:39; John 3:5-7.

So, the Word became sun, and moon, yet is not God. Did the Word become man (Adam)? No. God created the earth, then formed man from the earth, then breathed into him. Notice the process, man came from the earth, earthly.
The Word became flesh, a new creation (Jesus the spiritual man). Jesus did not go though the same process, though he was made like us. How does the Word become flesh, now come with the understanding, God is now His creation, flesh? You need to show me this from scripture, and it has to come from O/T, because this was all they had for their understanding, though if you have something from the N/T, I don't mind seeing that either. We need to believe Romans 1.

Do you now see, and understand, Jesus is from above, God's only begotten. Adam was not created in this way. God prepared Jesus a body Job 33:4-6. This is not something I really want to get into, because I don't know how God creates anything, I was not there, all I know, it's His Word, Power, Spirit, but it would seem to me, God may have taken some of Mary's clay, and God prepared the rest, the male DNA. Either the Word became flesh, meaning all of it, or some of it, but at least some part of the flesh, the Word became flesh. It says God was with him Acts 10:38, not that he was God, it does not say, for he is God. And if being God, how was God with him, how was God with God? We do know the Father was working through His son, but God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so, we can have Father with Son, but not God with God.
So to say the Word became flesh, means God is His creation, yet, when the Word became sun, the sun is not God, does not agree with God's Word. And to say there is a loop hole, in that an immortal God can die, but come back to life, therefore death could not hold, is not being true to scripture, because you are saying an immortal God can die, but He can come back to life, therefore being immortal. Yet the Father had to raise him from the dead.

And no (just in case), Jesus did not say he was going to raise himself by his own inherent power John 2:15-19; John 10:14-18. Jesus is talking about something specific (we can get into a study of that later if you wish, but for now I'll say this...) That word he used for “power” is not the same word for doing miracles, it is the word for authority, power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases. The point Jesus is making, is his testimony, that he lived a righteous life, and because he lived a righteous life, and did not love his life even unto death, God the Father would raise him, showing that he was true, and who he said he was. And we are also told, we are to do the same, and have the same choice Luke 21:16-19; John 12:25; Revelation 12:11, because of John 1:12, same word used here; to those that received him, to them gave he power of choice, to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

You are saying God is flesh, and an immortal God can die; God Who is Spirit, can become, and be flesh, that scripture says, He can't be. Though, from what I understand, what you want to tell me is, yes, this is so, when God says don't believe it. So other then just your words, you will have to come up with scripture, that teaches such a thing can be so, otherwise, we are not to believe it, because I have shown you from God's Word, why this is not so.

 

[single eye]

If God is not triune, how would that change anything regarding Christian faith?

It would make salvation about the gift of grace, not atonement. The kingdom of God is at hand, only the saints produced scripture.

 

[razzelflabben]

razzelflabben

Sorry to hear about your father. Hopefully, it will be a great advantage for your father, though.

I will try and get a post off today.

thank you, my responses might be intermittent for a few days, as I am sure you can understand.

 

[razzelflabben]

I can show you all the scripture you ask, but it will have to be big posts, because God's word it like a tapestry woven together.

I think we should start from the beginning.

It sound to me like you are saying God became the actual flesh of Jesus. If so, then I present this.

You say this is how an immortal God can die, the Word became flesh.
That would mean God is not immortal. You are saying, an immortal God, can become mortal. Jesus did die, and poured out his blood, and he was dead for some time. Whether he stayed dead, or not, is not the issue, the immortal God died. The immortal God became mortal.

remember (I am not thinking as clear as I should but I thought we talked about it here, if not I will summarize) scripture tells us that God is made up of three parts. Body, soul and spirit. Now the soul and spirit of man are both eternal and hard to separate, the bottom line however is that the spirit is the life that God breathed into man and the soul is the result of that breath. The body however, is not eternal, it is corruptible, it is dust. As such, it returns to dust. So, from God's perspective and the perspective of every true believer and the perspective of the bible itself, for the flesh to die, means nothing much at all, it is our temporary home.

Look at it this way, I live in a house and that house burns to the ground. Just because my house burns doesn't mean I am dead, in fact, in this analogy, I get out of the house and am fine. According to scripture and God's perspective, just because the flesh returns to dust (aka dies) doesn't mean I have, because the flesh is nothing more than the temporary home for my soul/spirit. Thus, your above comments show a lack of understanding of this basic biblical concept. God, that is the part of Jesus that was His soul/spirit never died, His flesh, the part of all men that is temporal, did, thus Jesus death does nothing to question His immortality.

Did the Word become the sun, and the moon? Yes, God said..., and it was so. Then we should be sun worshippers. Hopefully, you see the error in that. Now the sun will last a long time, even though it is slowly dieing, but even if it did last forever, we know from Gods word, God is not His creation.

Humm....I don't recall a passage that say the word became sun and moon, I do recall in Gen it saying that the sun and moon came into existence at God's command which is a very different thing. So, feel free to give your scriptural proof that I apparently missed, so we can study it and find the truth.

Isaiah 31:3 (KJV) Now the Egyptians are men (flesh), and not God (Spirit); and their horses flesh (men), and not spirit (God).

I believe God when he says that. The scripture says, God is Spirit John 4:23-24, not the Spirit is God, whoever is God is Spirit, and seeing as this was directed at the Father, the Father is Spirit. And Spirit is not flesh Luke 24:39; John 3:5-7.

I didn't know anyone was questioning whether or not God is Spirit, in fact, I thought I had already pointed out that He was....You apparently have never studied scripture enough to know what the three parts of man are, you would be well advised to do so, is a huge eye opener and a good understanding would help you to figure out what is being said here. Even man, without the God nature, has a spirit/soul that are eternal. In fact, according to scripture the soul of man is the very heart or personality of man, it's what makes you you and what makes me me. The spirit is what determines if that soul is alive in Christ or dead in sin. Like I said, it appears from your posts that you are still trying to see and understand this through the eyes of the flesh which have little to no concept of the soul/spirit within.

So, the Word became sun, and moon, yet is not God. Did the Word become man (Adam)? No. God created the earth, then formed man from the earth, then breathed into him. Notice the process, man came from the earth, earthly.
The Word became flesh, a new creation (Jesus the spiritual man). Jesus did not go though the same process, though he was made like us. How does the Word become flesh, now come with the understanding, God is now His creation, flesh? You need to show me this from scripture, and it has to come from O/T, because this was all they had for their understanding, though if you have something from the N/T, I don't mind seeing that either. We need to believe Romans 1.

I'm really not sure what you want me to show that hasn't already been shown, please be more specific. God put on the clothes of the flesh. Just because He put on the clothes of the flesh and shed them, doesn't mean He isn't still God anymore than you putting on a suit and tie changes you into someone different. Is that what you want me to evidence?

Do you now see, and understand, Jesus is from above, God's only begotten. Adam was not created in this way. God prepared Jesus a body Job 33:4-6. This is not something I really want to get into, because I don't know how God creates anything, I was not there, all I know, it's His Word, Power, Spirit, but it would seem to me, God may have taken some of Mary's clay, and God prepared the rest, the male DNA. Either the Word became flesh, meaning all of it, or some of it, but at least some part of the flesh, the Word became flesh. It says God was with him Acts 10:38, not that he was God, it does not say, for he is God. And if being God, how was God with him, how was God with God? We do know the Father was working through His son, but God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so, we can have Father with Son, but not God with God.
So to say the Word became flesh, means God is His creation, yet, when the Word became sun, the sun is not God, does not agree with God's Word. And to say there is a loop hole, in that an immortal God can die, but come back to life, therefore death could not hold, is not being true to scripture, because you are saying an immortal God can die, but He can come back to life, therefore being immortal. Yet the Father had to raise him from the dead.

most of this was addressed, the parts that weren't I can follow, so can't address. In this paragraph, it seems as though you are very confused on many levels. It also reminds me of a guy we talked to that didn't believe in trinity and tried to dismiss it by only focusing on the passages that portrayed Christ as fully man, while dismissing the parts of scripture that portrayed Jesus as fully God and fully man.

And no (just in case), Jesus did not say he was going to raise himself by his own inherent power John 2:15-19; John 10:14-18. Jesus is talking about something specific (we can get into a study of that later if you wish, but for now I'll say this...) That word he used for “power” is not the same word for doing miracles, it is the word for authority, power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases. The point Jesus is making, is his testimony, that he lived a righteous life, and because he lived a righteous life, and did not love his life even unto death, God the Father would raise him, showing that he was true, and who he said he was. And we are also told, we are to do the same, and have the same choice Luke 21:16-19; John 12:25; Revelation 12:11, because of John 1:12, same word used here; to those that received him, to them gave he power of choice, to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Jesus raised Himself, or that any of this has to deal with understanding trinity, but cool...

You are saying God is flesh, and an immortal God can die; God Who is Spirit, can become, and be flesh, that scripture says, He can't be. Though, from what I understand, what you want to tell me is, yes, this is so, when God says don't believe it. So other then just your words, you will have to come up with scripture, that teaches such a thing can be so, otherwise, we are not to believe it, because I have shown you from God's Word, why this is not so.

no, see above, you lack understanding of what is being said, and if you continue to misrepresent it, I will assume it is more than a mere misunderstanding (what I believe at the moment but know many people use this type of posting as a way to make themselves sound wise in their own eyes) Secondly, as to scripture, I have presented many that testify to what I am telling you and can present many more, in fact, I have a 100 plus page book I wrote much of which deals with this topic, the book is nothing but passages with directed wording to show you why we are looking at the next passage in the book. The problem however, is that I asked you for passages, and you still don't have many to offer, in fact, this post alone relies on your reasoning to get us to your understanding rather than on scriptures. So, ask for any passages you want and in the meantime, please offer passages that show that Jesus is not God in the flesh...thanks

 

[Jack Terrence]

He is literally the Son of God, but not God incarnate.

Jesus is not literally the Son of God. He is Son by appointment just as his father David was appointed to be God's Son. The term "Son" in reference to David and Jesus is a title which refers to their office as King.

I will set my King upon my holy hill. I will declare the decree, "You are My Son...."

And he is God incarnate.

 

[razzelflabben]

Jesus is not literally the Son of God. He is Son by appointment just as his father David was appointed to be God's Son. The term "Son" in reference to David and Jesus is a title which refers to their office as King.

I will set my King upon my holy hill. I will declare the decree, "You are My Son...."

And he is God incarnate.

Trying to make sure I understand...so when we are adopted by God, are we not "literally" the sons and daughters of God? What are we then? Seriously, not trying to be difficult just not following your point.

 

[Winepress777]

It changes everything because it would mean the word of God is fallible.

Here is why:

-Savior & One and only God-
Isaiah 43:10-11
"You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11
I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.

Luke 2:11
For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Acts 13:23
From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus

+ plenty of other references to Christ as our savior.

-Worship-
Exodus 34:14
(for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God)

Matthew 2:11
And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat came and[a] worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”

+Plenty of other references of Jesus being worshiped. If Jesus was not God in the flesh then how come he never once stopped anyone from worshiping him?

John
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

And the Word was God - then - And the Word became flesh - pretty self explanatory if you ask me...

- I AM -
Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Jeremiah 32:27
“Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

So If Jesus is not God how can he be before Abraham? An Archangel?, show this to me in scripture. So If God claims to be "I AM" - then Jesus claims to be "I AM" are they not claiming the same thing?

I mean, think about this. God is perfect right? In a humanly Christian sense what is perfection, without sin right? So how could Jesus, who lived a sinless life not be considered perfect? Jesus was perfect. That perfect blood sacrifice on the cross is the only thing which can pay for the sins of all mankind who believe upon him. If Jesus were a mere man then his sacrifice could not have atoned for the sins of the world because he would have only been a man.

There are so many other things I can point to - in the Bible - which prove Jesus Christ's divinity. Really all you have to do is read John's gospel with an open heart and discerning eye to see the whole book is about Christ's divinity.

Sorry - I feel pretty strong about this subject. Denying Christ's divinity is IMO the work of the enemy. The whole purpose of the Bible is for God's creation to know who He is, what He has done for us and for us to honor and worship Him. I really believe not knowing who Christ really is, is not knowing who God is. Don't take my word for it though, don't take any organizations word for it, read your bible and let its truths speak to you.

Oh yes of course, Amen! I am glad to see this thread and this witness of a fellow Israelite!