The Trinity

[GillDouglas]

There's still a few of us left yet!

It's a pleasure! My family came to the U.S. from Ulster in the early 1700's. They were mostly Presbyterian though (Scottish Calvinsts).

 

[UlsterChristian]

It's a pleasure! My family came to the U.S. from Ulster in the early 1700's. They were mostly Presbyterian though (Scottish Calvinsts).

Our countries have a rich, shared heritage. Many of your presidents were of the same stock as yourself! Times were hard in Ulster in those days for Presbyterians it must be confessed. I guess that's what made them the hardy, resourceful people they are.

 

[GillDouglas]

Our countries have a rich, shared heritage. Many of your presidents were of the same stock as yourself! Times were hard in Ulster in those days for Presbyterians it must be confessed. I guess that's what made them the hardy, resourceful people they are.

So true, and I love learning about it! Indeed they were hardy folk, they fought hard hold their lands against man and beast. They felt right at home when they settled the 'wild' west of Pennsylvania, Virginia and the Carolinas.

 

[Albion]

I've spoken to some Jews who place Moses in that role.

That crossed my mind, but it's hard to see how Moses played a role in Hebrew history that's equivalent to a Jesus or Mohammad figure.

 

[GillDouglas]

That crossed my mind, but it's hard to see how Moses played a role in Hebrew history that's equivalent to a Jesus or Mohammad figure.

There are figures in Hebrew history that are a foreshadowing of Christ.

 

[brinny]

I sincerely am. I already know what Scripture says. I'm asking for something outside of the box. I believe in the trinity. I personally do not believe my faith would change if I found out that God is not triune. Some people suggest it would destroy Christianity. I'm asking opinions.

I believe in the trinity.

Your belief in the trinity could change then? What is your belief in the trinity based on?

Thank you kindly.

 

[JustHisKid]

Your belief in the trinity could change then? What is your belief in the trinity based on?

Thank you kindly.

I don't know that it matters. I know God is one. I know that Christ is my Savior. Nobody can really understand the nature of God to begin with. God in three persons and/or three offices is basically the same thing to the human mind.

 

[Albion]

There are figures in Hebrew history that are a foreshadowing of Christ.

All right. Give us the complete comparison. These figures hint at the coming of the Messiah, I think we can say, but the proposition is that the faith is hypothetically to be altered in the way posited by this thread. Do you think that any of the "foreshadowers" could be a substitute Messiah or a Mohammad figure in the absence of any Savior, Incarnation, Ultimate Prophet/founder, etc.? I have doubts about that.

 

[GillDouglas]

All right. Give us the complete comparison. These figures hint at the coming of the Messiah, I think we can say, but the proposition is that the faith is hypothetically to be altered in the way posited by this thread. Do you think that any of the "foreshadowers" could be a substitute Messiah or a Mohammad figure in the absence of any Savior, Incarnation, Ultimate Prophet/founder, etc.? I have doubts about that.

As you say, hints. There is no substitute for Christ.

 

[ken777]

I don't know that it matters. I know God is one. I know that Christ is my Savior. Nobody can really understand the nature of God to begin with. God in three persons and/or three offices is basically the same thing to the human mind.

I find most lay people see the Trinity as one family (father, mother, child) or one person (father, husband, son). That seems to be a significant difference.

 

[Albion]

I find most lay people see the Trinity as one family (father, mother, child) or one person (father, husband, son). That seems to be a significant difference.

Although both of those ideas would be appalling to any theologian, you may be right about the way the ordinary, average, churchgoer thinks of it. The Eucharist is the same way. For all the talk we do here about Transubstantiation, Consubstantiation, real vs. symbolic, etc. a recent study of American Roman Catholics showed that 2/3 of them, when asked, thought it was all simply symbolism, just like any Baptist does. I have found myself that people will mouth the doctrine that their church has taught them, but when pressed for some sort of explanation in their own words, they will come down on the side of what is least complicated or miraculous time and again.

 

[ken777]

Although both of those ideas would be appalling to any theologian, you may be right about the way the ordinary, average, churchgoer thinks of it. The Eucharist is the same way. For all the talk we do here about Transubstantiation, Consubstantiation, real vs. symbolic, etc. a recent study of American Roman Catholics showed that 2/3 of them, when asked, thought it was all simply symbolism, just like any Baptist does. I have found myself that people will mouth the doctrine that their church has taught them, but when pressed for some sort of explanation in their own words, they will come down on the side of what is least complicated or miraculous time and again.

As a non-trintarian I try to avoid conflict by saying I believe in 3 distinct personas

 

[brinny]

brinny said:
Your belief in the trinity could change then? What is your belief in the trinity based on?

Thank you kindly

I don't know that it matters. I know God is one. I know that Christ is my Savior. Nobody can really understand the nature of God to begin with. God in three persons and/or three offices is basically the same thing to the human mind.

If it doesn't matter, what do you mean that you believe in the trinity? And why would you believe in the trinity from the gitgo?Please elaborate.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Albion]

If it doesn't matter, what do you mean that you believe in the trinity? And why would you believe in the trinity from the gitgo?Please elaborate.

Thank you kindly.

Not to speak for another poster, but I took it that the idea was that there's some sort of threeness about God's nature but who can figure it out?

 

[rcetc]

If God is not triune, how would that change anything regarding Christian faith?

If God is not a trinity, then we are lost in our sins. There can be no fulfillment of the New Covenant as found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, in which the whole New Testament is based. The payment of our sins must come from a perfect sacrifice, which is God himself in the form of his only son Jesus Christ, who is God by nature. This blood sacrifice must then be applied to our lives through the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit. This fulfills the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31. If you are looking for more information on proof of a trinity, the first four chapter of my book Made in the Image of God: Understanding the Nature of God and Mankind in a Changing World covers all of this and more. This book is currently shelved in the Library of Congress and the National Library in Denmark and is available worldwide in on-line book outlets and bookstores. You can find the book site here: http://booksite.rcetc.com

 

[JustHisKid]

I find most lay people see the Trinity as one family (father, mother, child) or one person (father, husband, son). That seems to be a significant difference.

I was thinking about that this morning. I was raised Catholic and it just occurred to me that they don't view Jesus as Lord and God, but as the child of Mary and the Father. That is quite different from God being One.

 

[Ed Caton]

That depends on how he is seen as not triune. Is the Father actually all three persons in one? Is Jesus just a man who had ideas about God the Father? And on and on.

I am not God but I am different people to different people. . .To by brother I am a brother, to my wife I am a husband and not a brother. To my child I am a father and neither a brother or husband. Jesus said several times in the book of Revelations that He was the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega.
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
In John 10:30 Jesus said "I and my Father are one."
The concept of "trinity" is not definitively described as a doctrine in the Bible. It is mentioned only in 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Many times the doctrine of the Trinity has been debate, accepted, rejected and debated again. At the Great Day, what will it matter to those who are accepted into the Kingdom or to those who have the door shut right in their faces. Jesus' dramatic parable in Matthew 25 ignores the Trinity debate altogether. The great mystery in that story is discovering what the oil is that the foolish decided to leave behind. Was it a worthless debate over the accuracy of a minor point about the trinity?

 

[EdwinMorales]

If God is not triune, how would that change anything regarding Christian faith?

If God is not triune then what has been revealed to us in the bible would mean that God lied about His existence, that would mean our faith is not true. And we understand that God cannot lie and will not lie. Some things can put questions of doubting the truth of Gods word if you go beyond that is written and can cause doubt and confusion so therefore the Christian bible that we believe in is the only standard of truth.

 

[Colter]

Those of us born into Christianity are born into the speculations of middle men, theologians and such.

The Trinity as conceived of in Christendom came about as a natural after thought, after Christ returned to his rightful place in heaven. After he did all that he did and said all that he said. After he resurrected himself from the dead and proclaimed "all power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Just as the story of the life and death of Jesus quite easily fit into preexisting Pagan notions of original sin and atonement, so did the speculations of the identity of Jesus fit into the existing concepts of triune deity found in other religions of the age.

 

[7xlightray]

If God is not triune, how would that change anything regarding Christian faith?

It would change greatly, because it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (so we better be sure who "him" is) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Romans 4:24(KJV)

If scripture is telling us, we need to believe in the one that raised Jesus from the dead, then scripture also must clearly tell us who this God is, otherwise we have no hope of salvation. Not as many claim, that scripture does not clearly define who this God is. It more then abundantly does. Just as Jesus was the stumbling stone then, so he is now, even to this day.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?