The Trinity

[JustHisKid]

Sorry, don't get me wrong ... I am not stuck under the old covenant, Jesus has fulfilled the Law. The fact still remains, however that God cannot change. If he tells us to do something and we do something different, then it is sin.

You are the only other Christian I have EVER heard say that Jesus fulfilled the law. I have been saying that for a long time and people don't seem to get it.

In Matt 28:19 Jesus told the disciples to baptize in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

What NAME were you baptized in? If it is not the one HE said, then it is disobedience, which is sin!

I honestly don't remember. It was years ago.

We do NOT and have NEVER been given freedom to worship God how "we" feel. We see this from the beginning:

Cain and Abel both had it in their heart to worship God! Cain was not making a sacrifice because he hated God, he wanted to serve Him. When God told him that he hated his sacrifice and that ALL he had to do was worship Him like Abel worshiped, he was MAD. He did not want to worship God the way that God wanted to be worshiped. He wanted to do it HIS way. And lets be honest.. he worked a LOT harder on his sacrifice than Abel did. Think about all the ground tilling, and seed sowing, and watering, and weed pulling, and back breaking labor involved in the sacrifice that Cain offered. Abel on the other hand, sat on his rear all day watching sheep. Not a hard job at all. Another thing, Cains sacrifice was WAY more BEAUTIFUL than Abel's bloody dead lamb. To the carnal eye, we would have probably thought that Cain was more righteous, because he seemingly did more for God. But God does not want more, he wants OBEDIENCE!

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.​

I just love the Lord with all my heart and listen for His voice and follow Him. I'm not sure what else you would expect.

 

[GillDouglas]

I am simply trying to see what your understanding is. Please tell.

"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16-17)

Maybe you can help me understand it better, from your standpoint.

 

[donfish06]

Maybe you can help me understand it better, from your standpoint.

I am typing it up right now. While I am doing this, could you please explain to me what you see that the scripture means?

 

[donfish06]

Maybe you can help me understand it better, from your standpoint.

I am still typing, so please bear with me. This is all going to be new to all of you so I have to lay a foundation first. It would be a lot easier to accomplish on some sort of instant chat. Would anyone like to do a google hangout?

 

[djkms]

What a great subject this is!

---My backstory - skip ahead if you dont want to read----
I want to preface this by saying this; I also grew up catholic and in my teen years I basically rejected God and became of the world - up until about 30 years old or so. During this time I met my now wife who was also of the world and she grew up in a very strict Jehovah Witness family. We both entered marriage not following the Lord. I always had the tug on my heart for God and it got stronger and stronger the older I got. I decided to answer Gods call and was looking for direction.

I talked with my boss who is a believer and I started to go to his Church which is non denominational. I immediately loved the fact that the word was taught book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse and not topical. In my zeal for the Lord I started to push my wife to go to Church with me and this is how I found out about her JW past. She was very resistant to me and come to find out a lot of what modern day Christians follow is considered pagan to JW's.

I was at a crossroads. I wanted to be equally yoked with my wife but more importantly I wanted to make sure I was on the right path with God. So I started to do research, a LOT of research. I read up a lot about JW apologetics and "mainstream" Christianity apologetics. I always made sure to let the Bible be the final say on any research.

I say all this because the trinity is a hot subject and JW's do not believe Jesus is God, so it was important for me to know what I was talking about, especially in my household and especially with my wife who spent 30-40 hours a week for 20 years reading the Bible.

I dont say all this to puff myself up, I say all this because I have studied - in my limited knowledge and time - both sides of the Trinity argument.
----End of story---

First I want to address God's requirement for perfection; the example you used of the tabernacle. (I will probably stumble in this so if I need correcting please do so, my knowledge here is not the best). Yes, God requires perfection to go to him. In the old testament only the highest priests could make the sacrifice for example. However, Jesus bridges that gap, so that through Him, we now have direct access to God the Father. You have to remember, pre Christ is the age of law because no savior had come to stand in place of the sinner (this is why animal blood sacrifices were required). Post Christ is the age of grace because now we have Jesus, who stands in place of the sinner (through the cross). Jesus is now that perfection for us.

Back to the trinity, I think we can all agree that there are parts of the bible which can be left up to interpretation if not in proper context. Well even scholars today argue certain parts of the Bible. However, there are absolutes. Throughout the Bible there are numerous "I AM" statements. I AM is absolute, there is no kinda, part, somewhat, a little that could fit into the statement "I AM". Hope this makes sense. So with that said, if God says "I AM" and Jesus says "I AM" then who is "I AM", Jesus or God? Jesus and God are "I AM" because they are one in the same.

Also think of this. God destroyed (or let be destroyed) nations for Idolatry. Do you really think he would let billions of Christians for almost 2,000 years worship Jesus if Jesus was not in fact God? Do you really think he would allow for almost 2,000 years the whole structure of our faith to be wrong without correction?

Another thing to consider - those denominations that teach against the trinity have also claimed things would happen during certain times which never came to fruition. The Bible confirms its profits because what they prophesied about came to pass. All others are nothing more than false prophets and we are warned repeatedly to stay away.

Again I say, if the "truine" God is a man made fiction, please refute it with scripture. I have given my case for the "truine" God with scripture in my previous post, if the meaning I posted is wrong please tell me what the scriptures linked meant.

We all desire to walk in truth.

 

[djkms]

You are the only other Christian I have EVER heard say that Jesus fulfilled the law. I have been saying that for a long time and people don't seem to get it.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

 

[GillDouglas]

I am still typing, so please bear with me. This is all going to be new to all of you so I have to lay a foundation first. It would be a lot easier to accomplish on some sort of instant chat. Would anyone like to do a google hangout?

You can create a conversation and add who you wish. That'd work best.

 

[donfish06]

Back to the trinity, I think we can all agree that there are parts of the bible which can be left up to interpretation if not in proper context. Well even scholars today argue certain parts of the Bible. However, there are absolutes. Throughout the Bible there are numerous "I AM" statements. I AM is absolute, there is no kinda, part, somewhat, a little that could fit into the statement "I AM". Hope this makes sense. So with that said, if God says "I AM" and Jesus says "I AM" then who is "I AM", Jesus or God? Jesus and God are "I AM" because they are one in the same.

Also think of this. God destroyed (or let be destroyed) nations for Idolatry. Do you really think he would let billions of Christians for almost 2,000 years worship Jesus if Jesus was not in fact God? Do you really think he would allow for almost 2,000 years the whole structure of our faith to be wrong without correction?

Another thing to consider - those denominations that teach against the trinity have also claimed things would happen during certain times which never came to fruition. The Bible confirms its profits because what they prophesied about came to pass. All others are nothing more than false prophets and we are warned repeatedly to stay away.

Again I say, if the "truine" God is a man made fiction, please refute it with scripture. I have given my case for the "truine" God with scripture in my previous post, if the meaning I posted is wrong please tell me what the scriptures linked meant.

We all desire to walk in truth.

I am not JW, I believe Jesus is God. The Bible teaches that Lord Jesus Christ is the NAME of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost. The Catholic church changed it, as I have posted previously, and is a historical FACT. I am NOT NOT NOT NOT diminishing Christ's deity. If anything I am EXPANDING his deity. There is a reason the period when the Catholic Church ruled the world is referred to as the "dark ages". They perverted the truth and killed anyone who tried to find out for themselves.

 

[donfish06]

You can create a conversation and add who you wish. That'd work best.

I will do that, no one seems to respond to them

 

[djkms]

I am not JW, I believe Jesus is God. The Bible teaches that Lord Jesus Christ is the NAME of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost. The Catholic church changed it, as I have posted previously, and is a historical FACT. I am NOT NOT NOT NOT diminishing Christ's deity. If anything I am EXPANDING his deity. There is a reason the period when the Catholic Church ruled the world is referred to as the "dark ages". They perverted the truth and killed anyone who tried to find out for themselves.

I apologize, I didn't meant to infer you were. My struggle with this topic has been with a JW wife so thats where I am coming from. I guess I am just used to this topic being argued with JW's

I will do that, no one seems to respond to them

Please add me I am interested in what you have to say

 

[Albion]

But there is no such thing as "God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit"

Man has made that up! Jesus never referred to himself as God the Son.

Very well, but he certainly identified himself as God, so what does that leave you to argue? Just the term itself which is also clearly Scriptural?

 

[donfish06]

Very well, but he certainly identified himself as God, so what does that leave you to argue? Just the term?

I am almost finished with the first section of the explanation. I am nowhere near Jesus yet, I am still at creation. It requires a lot of foundation. Please refer to the conversation I created. I will post there shortly!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I agree with you. That is to say, the answer to the question depends on the particular way that the triune God is denied, but since there has been something of a trend in the answers toward a particular version of that, I think you've answered it rightly here.

IF that were the POV a non-Trinitarian were to take, it would reduce the faith to something similar to Judaism or Islam. I'd say it would be more like Islam since Judaism doesn't have a principle figure in the role filled by Mohammad.

I've spoken to some Jews who place Moses in that role.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JustHisKid,

Saved people are also God's sons and daughters. Further, if Jesus is not God, how does His sacrifice have any merit? He claimed to be God. Was He crazy?

We may be saved, but we need to grow in understanding of God as He has revealed Himself. The greatest manifestation of God is in and through the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Jesus’ sacrifice is effective because God gave His Son in sacrifice. Jesus did not claim to be God, he claimed that he is The Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JustHisKid]

Greetings again JustHisKid,


We may be saved, but we need to grow in understanding of God as He has revealed Himself. The greatest manifestation of God is in and through the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Jesus’ sacrifice is effective because God gave His Son in sacrifice. Jesus did not claim to be God, he claimed that he is The Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

He most certainly did claim to be God.

John 8
…57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

 

[GillDouglas]

While we cannot fully understand everything about the Trinity, it's too difficult a topic for most to grasp. That's why there's many who are for and many against. This is what I believe. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God. There was never a time when one of the Persons of the Godhead did not exist. They are all eternal.

 

[UlsterChristian]

It would change the doctrinal stance of the denominations that accept the trinity, no doubt, but I can't see it having a major impact on Christianity. It is pretty clear that God is manifest in himself (obviously), Jesus and the Holy Spirit but all three are very different manifestations so to regard them all the same is difficult, in my view.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It would even change the teaching of the resurrection, because the bible depicts the Father exerting himself to pull Jesus out of the grave, to deny the nuance that the trinity represents, it may call the entire crucifixion into question.

 

[GillDouglas]

It would change the doctrinal stance of the denominations that accept the trinity, no doubt, but I can't see it having a major impact on Christianity. It is pretty clear that God is manifest in himself (obviously), Jesus and the Holy Spirit but all three are very different manifestations so to regard them all the same is difficult, in my view.

An Ulsterman Anglican? Our understanding of the Trinity in no way affects our salvation, and for us to know every detail is impossible. As I said this is one of the harder subjects to grasp, and it is obvious that He revealed Himself in three distinct ways. For those to say otherwise would cause a rift among other doctrines and the denominations that subscribe to them.

 

[UlsterChristian]

An Ulsterman Anglican? Our understanding of the Trinity in no way affects our salvation, and for us to know every detail is impossible. As I said this is one of the harder subjects to grasp, and it is obvious that He revealed Himself in three distinct ways. For those to say otherwise would cause a rift among other doctrines and the denominations that subscribe to them.

There's still a few of us left yet!

You're absolutely right about understanding. It is impossible to fully comprehend the mysteries of our glorious God and it isn't a prerequisite for being reconciled with our Lord.