• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

The Trinity

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by MissytheButterfly, May 19, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    _____I’m sure this has been posted before but I see people like Neo keep misrepresenting it. Also I want to post the commentary by A. T. Robertson. Robertson taught N.T. Greek, at the post grad. Level, for 47 years. He wrote over forty books, including a 1200 page Greek grammar, which took 26 years to complete, and a six volume exegesis and commentary, “Word Pictures in the New Testament”, from which I will be quoting. Now if Neo or any other of the wannabe Bible experts can match these qualifications, then let them produce their credentials and refute Robertson.

    {In the beginning} (\en archêi\). \Archê\ is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew _be resh1th_ in #Ge 1:1. But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or it has come out of nothing. {Was} (\ên\). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of \eimi\ to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence.

    Quite a different verb (\egeneto\, became) appears in verse #14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in #8:58 "before Abraham came (\genesthai\) I am" (\eimi\, timeless existence). {The Word} (\ho logos\). \Logos\ is from \legô\, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. \Logos\ is common for reason as well as speech. Heracl1tus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (\anima mundi\) and Marcus Aurelius used \spermatikos logos\ for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew _memra_ was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in #Pr 8:23.

    Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (_The Origin of the _Prologue to St. John_, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John’s standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term \Logos\, but not John’s conception of personal pre-existence. The term \Logos\ is applied to Christ only in #Joh 1:1,14; Re 19:13; 1Jo 1:1 "concerning the Word of life" (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of "the Word of God" in #Heb 4:12. But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul (#2Co 8:9; Php 2:6; Col 1:17) and in #Heb 1:2 and in #Joh 17:5. This term suits John’s purpose better than \sophia\ (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the \aeon\ Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics).

    The pre-existent Logos "became flesh" (\sarx egeneto\, verse #14) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once. {With God} (\pros ton theon\). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. \Pros\ with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In #1Jo 2:1 we have a like use of \pros"We have a Paraclete with the Father" (\paraklêton echomen pros ton patera\).

    See \prosôpon pros prosôpon\ (face to face, #1Co 13:12), a triple use of \pros There is a papyrus example of \pros\ in this sense \to gnôston tês pros allêlous sunêtheias\, "the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" (M.&M., _Vocabulary_) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, _Origin of Prologue_, p. 8) that the use of \pros\ here and in #Mr 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is _Koiné_, not old Attic. In #Joh 17:5 John has \para soi\ the more common idiom. {And the Word was God} (\kai theos ên ho logos\). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying \ho theos ên ho logos That would mean that all of God was expressed in \ho logos\ and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (\ho logos\) and the predicate without it (\theos\) just as in #Joh 4:24 \pneuma ho theos\ can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." So in #1Jo 4:16 \ho theos agapê estin\ can only mean "God is love," not "love is God" as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, _Grammar_, pp. 767f. So in #Joh 1:14 \ho Logos sarx egeneto\, "the Word became flesh," not "the flesh became Word." Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.
     
  2. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    I've already proven my point. The Logos is begotten from God, and is therefore divine, but it is not God.
     
  3. SCJ

    SCJ Veteran

    960
    +4
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Thanks, I had not seen this...did a little study on it as a result. This is from one of the commentaries I went through:

    Matthew Henry Commentary:
    That it is an intelligent and divine person that here speaks seems very plain, and that it is not meant of a mere essential property of the divine nature, for Wisdom here has personal properties and actions; and that intelligent divine person can be no other than the Son of God himself, to whom the principal things here spoken of wisdom are attributed in other scriptures, and we must explain scripture by itself. If Solomon himself designed only the praise of wisdom as it is an attribute of God, by which he made the world and governs it, so to recommend to men the study of that wisdom which belongs to them, yet the Spirit of God, who indited what he wrote, carried him, as David often, to such expressions as could agree to no other than the Son of God, and would lead us into the knowledge of great things concerning him. All divine revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, and here we are told who and what he is, as God, designed in the eternal counsels to be the Mediator between God and man. The best exposition of these verses we have in the first four verses of St. John’s gospel. In the beginning was the Word, etc. Concerning the Son of God observe here,

    I. His personality and distinct subsistence, one with the Father and of the same essence, and yet a person of himself, whom the Lord possessed (v. 22), who was set up (v. 23), was brought forth (v. 24, 25), was by him (v. 30), for he was the express image of his person, Heb. 1:3.

    II. His eternity; he was begotten of the Father, for the Lord possessed him, as his own Son, his beloved Son, laid him in his bosom; he was brought forth as the only-begotten of the Father, and this before all worlds, which is most largely insisted upon here. The Word was eternal, and had a being before the world, before the beginning of time; and therefore it must follow that it was from eternity. The Lord possessed him in the beginning of his way, of his eternal counsels, for those were before his works. This way indeed had no beginning, for God’s purposes in himself are eternal like himself, but God speaks to us in our own language. Wisdom explains herself (v. 23): I was set up from everlasting. The Son of God was, in the eternal counsels of God, designed and advanced to be the wisdom and power of the Father, light and life, and all in all both in the creation and in the redemption of the world. That he was brought forth as to his being, and set up as to the divine counsels concerning his office, before the world was made, is here set forth in a great variety of expressions, much the same with those by which the eternity of God himself is expressed. Ps. 90:2, Before the mountains were brought forth. 1. Before the earth was, and that was made in the beginning, before man was made; therefore the second Adam had a being before the first, for the first Adam was made of the earth, the second had a being before the earth, and therefore is not of the earth, Jn. 3:31. 2. Before the sea was (v. 24), when there were no depths in which the waters were gathered together, no fountains from which those waters might arise, none of that deep on which the Spirit of God moved for the production of the visible creation, Gen. 1:2. 3. Before the mountains were, the everlasting mountains, v. 25. Eliphaz, to convince Job of his inability to judge of the divine counsels, asks him (Job 15:7), Wast thou made before the hills? No, thou wast not. But before the hills was the eternal Word brought forth. 4. Before the habitable parts of the world, which men cultivate, and reap the profits of (v. 26), the fields in the valleys and plains, to which the mountains are as a wall, which are the highest part of the dust of the world; the first part of the dust (so some), the atoms which compose the several parts of the world; the chief or principal part of the dust, so it may be read, and understood of man, who was made of the dust of the ground and is dust, but is the principal part of the dust, dust enlivened, dust refined. The eternal Word had a being before man was made, for in him was the life of men.

    III. His agency in making the world. He not only had a being before the world, but he was present, not as a spectator, but as the architect, when the world was made. God silenced and humbled Job by asking him, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Who hath laid the measures thereof? (Job 38:4, etc.). Wast thou that eternal Word and wisdom, who was the prime manager of that great affair? No; thou art of yesterday.’’ But here the Son of God, referring, as it should seem, to the discourse God had with Job, declares himself to have been engaged in that which Job could not pretend to be a witness of and a worker in, the creation of the world. By him God made the worlds, Eph. 3:9; Heb. 1:2; Col. 1:16. 1. When, on the first day of the creation, in the very beginning of time, God said, Let there be light, and with a word produced it, this eternal Wisdom was that almighty Word: Then I was there, when he prepared the heavens, the fountain of that light, which, whatever it is here, is there substantial. 2. He was no less active when, on the second day, he stretched out the firmament, the vast expanse, and set that as a compass upon the face of the depth (v. 27), surrounded it on all sides with that canopy, that curtain. Or it may refer to the exact order and method with which God framed all the parts of the universe, as the workman marks out his work with his line and compasses. The work in nothing varied from the plan of it formed in the eternal mind. 3. He was also employed in the third day’s work, when the waters above the heavens, were gathered together by establishing the clouds above, and those under the heavens by strengthening the fountains of the deep, which send forth those waters (v. 28), and by preserving the bounds of the sea, which is the receptacle of those waters, v. 29. This speaks much the honour of this eternal Wisdom, for by this instance God proves himself a God greatly to be feared (Jer. 5:22) that he has placed the sand for the bound of the sea, that the dry land might continue to appear above water, fit to be a habitation for man; and thus he has appointed the foundation of the earth. How able, how fit, is the Son of God to be the Saviour of the world, who was the Creator of it!

    IV. The infinite complacency which the Father had in him, and he in the Father (v. 30): I was by him, as one brought up with him. As by an eternal generation he was brought forth of the Father, so by an eternal counsel he was brought up with him, which intimates, not only the infinite love of the Father to the Son, who is therefore called the Son of his love (Col. 1:13), but the mutual consciousness and good understanding that were between them concerning the work of man’s redemption, which the Son was to undertake, and about which the counsel of peace was between them both, Zec. 6:13. He was alumnus patris—the Father’s pupil, as I may say, trained up from eternity for that service which in time, in the fulness of time, he was to go through with, and is therein taken under the special tuition and protection of the Father; he is my servant whom I uphold, Isa. 42:1. He did what he saw the Father do (Jn. 5:19), pleased his Father, sought his glory, did according to the commandment he received from his Father, and all this as one brought up with him. He was daily his Father’s delight (my elect, in whom my soul delighteth, says God, Isa. 43:1), and he also rejoiced always before him. This may be understood either, 1. Of the infinite delight which the persons of the blessed Trinity have in each other, wherein consists much of the happiness of the divine nature. Or, 2. Of the pleasure which the Father took in the operations of the Son, when he made the world; God saw every thing that the Son made, and, behold, it was very good, it pleased him, and therefore his Son was daily, day by day, during the six days of the creation, upon that account, his delight, Ex. 39:43. And the Son also did himself rejoice before him in the beauty and harmony of the whole creation, Ps. 104:31. Or, 3. Of the satisfaction they had in each other, with reference to the great work of man’s redemption. The Father delighted in the Son, as Mediator between him and man, was well-pleased with what he proposed (Mt. 3:17), and therefore loved him because he undertook to lay down his life for the sheep; he put a confidence in him that he would go through his work, and not fail nor fly off. The Son also rejoiced always before him, delighted to do his will (Ps. 40:8), adhered closely to his undertaking, as one that was well-satisfied in it, and, when it came to the setting to, expressed as much satisfaction in it as ever, saying, Lo, I come, to do as in the volume of the book it is written of me.

    V. The gracious concern he had for mankind, v. 31. Wisdom rejoiced, not so much in the rich products of the earth, or the treasures hid in the bowels of it, as in the habitable parts os it, for her delights were with the sons of men; not only in the creation of man is it spoken with a particular air of pleasure (Gen. 1:26), Let us make man, but in the redemption and salvation of man. The Son of God was ordained, before the world, to that great work, 1 Pt. 1:20. A remnant of the sons of men were given him to be brought, through his grace, to his glory, and these were those in whom his delights were. His church was the habitable part of his earth, made habitable for him, that the Lord God might dwell even among those that had been rebellious; and this he rejoiced in, in the prospect of seeing his seed. Though he foresaw all the difficulties he was to meet with in his work, the services and sufferings he was to go through, yet, because it would issue in the glory of his Father and the salvation of those sons of men that were given him, he looked forward upon it with the greatest satisfaction imaginable, in which we have all the encouragement we can desire to come to him and rely upon him for all the benefits designed us by his glorious undertaking.
     
  4. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    Notice that John says the Logos was God, he doesn't say that the Logos is God. The Logos at one time was God, because it was a part of God, it was begotten from God.
     
  5. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    Neo, you said, "I finally found it. God created the Logos before anything else."

    This Son was not created; He was begotten. Creation means to be formed from a substance outside of the creator or from nothing, but begotten in this context means to be brought forth from the Father’s own substance.


    The Scriptures again affirm the wonderful truth that Christ is in reality the Son of God; brought forth from the Father. In the first verse of Proverbs 8 it says that wisdom is speaking. Who is wisdom? Verse 8 tells us that He has a mouth, and speaks. Paul wrote, “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:24) “But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.” (1 Corinthians 1:30) Christ is Wisdom, and is speaking in Proverbs chapter 8.

    “When there were no depths, I was brought forth 2342; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth 2342.” (Proverbs 8:24, 25) Also, let us look at this verse in The 1965 Bible in Basic English: “When there was no deep I was given birth, when there were no fountains flowing with water. Before the mountains were put in their places, before the hills was my birth

    The Hebrew verb which was translated brought forth is used, in this verse, in the Pulal form: the definition for the Pulal form is the only definition that can apply here. This definition is as follows: “to be made to writhe, be made to bear, to be brought forth.” & This verb in this form is only used three places in the Bible, and here are the other two places where it is used.

    “Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made 2342 [Hebrew: Pulal form] before the hills?” (Job 15:7) “Behold, I was shapen 2342 [Hebrew: Pulal form] in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5) As you can plainly see, the term brought forth in Proverbs 8:24, 25 can mean nothing other than being begotten, or born. If Proverbs 8:24, 25 were talking merely about an intellectual wisdom, then you must say that at some point God acquired wisdom, and that before that time He did not have wisdom. These verses cannot be talking about that, but rather the origin of the Son of God.

    Let us continue on with the rest of the verses in Proverbs chapter eight, and learn more about the characteristics of Wisdom.

    “While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there [Remember John 1:1, the Word was with God in the beginning when He made the heavens]: when He set a compass upon the face of the depth: When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep: When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:26-36)

    The terms Father and Son, by definition, indicate the existence of one before the other. This was the understanding of the Israelites. In the book of Proverbs we read: “Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in His fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is His name, and what is His son’s name, if thou canst tell?” (Proverbs 30:4)

    The New Testament over and over affirms the fact that Christ was brought forth from His Father before the world was. “John [who was six months older than Jesus] bare witness of Him [Jesus], and cried, saying, This was He of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred 1096 [to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being*] before me: for He was before me.” (John 1:15) “This is He of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred 1096 before me: for He was before me.” (John 1:30)

    Jesus said, “For the Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out 1831 from God. I came forth 1831 [to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born of*] from the Father, and am come 2064 [to come from one place to another*] into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:27, 28) Jesus was born of the Father before the world was, then; much later, He came into the world.

    Jesus said unto the Pharisees, “If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth 1831 and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me.” (John 8:42)

    Jesus prayed to His Father, “Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out 1831 from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.” (John 17:7, 8)

    The disciples prayed that God would perform miracles “by stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.” (Acts 4:30) Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God. He was not merely called the Son of God since He was born in Bethlehem.

    Jesus said to His disciples, “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater 3187 [elder*] than I.” (John 14:28) The Greek word meizwn that was translated greater in this verse, is translated elder in Romans 9:12. “It was said unto her, The elder 3187 shall serve the younger.” (Romans 9:12) Here is the definition of the Greek word meizwn that was translated elder: “larger (literally or figuratively, specifically in age).” (Strong’s Greek Dictionary) Here we have plain evidence that the Father is older than His Son. It does not take a wise man to figure out something that is so plain a child can understand it. Ask your child, “Who is older, you or me?” I am sure he will give you the right answer.
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    2002 Christian,

    You wrote:
    Gen. 1:27 says, "And God CREATED MAN..." Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40). Thus, begotten or not, Jesus is a CREATED being and that is the TRUTH.

    Who is this God that CREATED man? Jesus revealed that this ONLY true God that CREATED man (including the MAN Jesus) is the FATHER (John 17:3).

    This should be enough proof that Jesus is NOT God.

    Ed
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "I've already proven my point. The Logos is begotten from God, and is therefore divine, but it is not God.
    "

    *chuckles* what part of the Logos was with Godand WAS God don't you get?
    The word is en and the translation is 1) I was, etc.

    impliying it is God, not an idea, or a plan, it was God.
     
  8. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Damon:
    Time itself consists of three elements, or natures. Past, present and future...

    Franklin:
    If your trying to explain and validate the Trinity theory by using this analogy then let's look at these 3 aspects of time a little closer.... Past is not present and not future, all relate to time but they are not one in the same. I've heard preachers standing in pulpits use ice and water as an analogy also, water, vapor & ice.... it can go on & on..... scripture is what we need to rely on, scripture does not contradict itself, scripture must interpret scripture.
     
  9. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

    The Scripture says:

    1 Corinthians 11:3, "...the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

    The Trinity says -

    "The glory co-equal, the majesty co-eternal, none afore or after other, none greater or less."
    Which shall we take - the Scriptures or the Trinity? Is possible to believe both?
    Does any of these passages contradict itself? I'm just looking at what the scriptures are saying.
     
  10. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    Ok Chuckles, you obviously didn't read all of my posts. The Logos was God at one time because it used to be a part of God, but then God begot the Logos, and the Logos became a separate being from God. The Logos is still divine, and eternal though.
     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Does any of these passages contradict itself? I'm just looking at what the scriptures are saying."

    Nope, the scriptures tell us of trinity. That verse in tim is speaking of saving us. I also think its pretty funny how Christ is ALWAYS refered to as the savior and then in the previous verse Paul states matter of factly "God our savior"

    "The Logos was God at one time because it used to be a part of God, but then God begot the Logos, and the Logos became a separate being from God. "

    So where do you see the verse that says, And the logos seperated itself from God. I don't see that at all. You do see John refer to the logos then refer to Christ in the same exact way. Telling us christ is the logos that is God. So Christ is God. God didn't beget the logos as stated in the verse Logos is God and was with him in the beginning. You need to read a bit of background about John's style of writting. In chapter 1 he makes it very clear that he is saying Jesus is God.
     
  12. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    _____I see that LouisB has already responded to this but I will throw in my two cents too. I’m still waiting for Neo to ante up some Greek scholarship credentials to refute Robertson. All I have seen is dog puke, “I know this.” and “I know that.” etc., etc.
    _____Roberston very clearly points out how John’s use of specific words disproves and refutes what Neo has posted above. Robertson even shows how the passage would have to have been written to support the heretics.
    _____And as with others here I’m still waiting for the scripture which states that the Logos was begotten.
    _____Some people use a quaint phrase to express disbelief or that something is false, it is often abbreviated, "B" and another letter. I prefer the more scriptural "dog puke", see Prov 26:11 and 2 Pet 2:22. Okay so the scriptures says "vomit", so sue me.


    Pr 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
    2 Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    *mod hat on* oldshepard, please refrain from using flamatory remarks like, "All I have seen is dog puke". We don't agree with people but should respect their views. Thanks. *mod hat off*
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...