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The Trinity

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by MissytheButterfly, May 19, 2002.

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  1. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

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    Some believe in the Trinity..some do not. I would like to know from others what their view of the Trinity is..does it exist ? Why or Why not, please explain your answers and Bible verses to support your claim would be greatly appreciated.
     
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  2. tericl2

    tericl2 A Work in Progress

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    For the Trinity...actually a more apt word would be Triune, which would be three in one. Trinity conotates three separate, but that is just semantics. Anyway, here are some verses....the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third.

    The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16)
    The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26)
    The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10)
    The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26)
    The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24)
    the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13)
    and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16)
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    MissytheButterfly,

    The Trinity doctrine states that there is only one God in three persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

    This is a FALSE doctrine that was contrived by a Council of Catholic Bishops in 381 AD to justify the FALSE teaching that Jesus is God.

    According to Jesus, there is ONLY ONE true God and that ONLY ONE true God is the FATHER (John 17:3). Jesus identified himself as a MAN (John 8:40). The Bible teaches that God CREATED man (Gen. 1:27). Thus, if Jesus says he is a MAN (the CREATED being), then there is no way that Jesus is himself the ONLY ONE God who CREATED himself

    Ed
     
  4. Damon

    Damon New Member

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    Missy...Please look up the history for yourself before believing this. Here are some excerpts from an essay by Pat Zukeran.
    You can check the references for yourself, they are accurate.

    The Council of Nicea was the first church council ever called in 325 A.D

    Although the doctrine of the Trinity itself was not discussed, the doctrine of the deity of Christ was confirmed. In attendance were approximately 300 bishops, many of whom were divided over the issue. Arius with his supporters, Theonas, Secundus, and Eusebius of Nicomedia, held the view that Jesus was an inferior creature to God the Father. The orthodox camp was led by Bishops Hosius, Alexander of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Athanasius who argued that Jesus is God.
    After hours of debate, the council concluded the following in their creed:
    "We believe . . . in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one substance (homoousios) with the Father. . . ."
    Fifty years later, in 381 A.D., the Council of Constantinople was called by Emperor Theodosius. Here the Nicene Creed was reaffirmed and further clarified. It is at this council that the Holy Spirit was declared equal in divinity with the Father and the Son.
    The councils of Nicea and Constantinople did not establish a new creed. The councils clarified and formalized the belief in the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, views already held by the apostles and church fathers. However, Jehovah's Witnesses contest this point. Let's see if the church fathers who lived before the Council of Nicea, the ante-Nicene fathers, held to the deity of Christ.

    According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity were never a part of the theology of the church fathers. In the article Should You Believe in the Trinity? several church fathers are cited as denying the orthodox view of Jesus. They include Justin Martyr who died in 165 A.D., Irenaeus 200 A.D., Clement of Alexandria 215 A.D., Tertullian 230 A.D., Hippolytus 235 A.D., and Origen who died in 250 A.D. The Watchtower list quotes from each theologian, claiming that they believed the inferiority of the Son to the Father. But the article contains no footnotes citing the source of these quotations.
    Did these significant figures in church history really deny the divine nature of Christ? Let us take a careful (and referenced) look at what the ante-Nicene fathers stated in their original writings.


    Justin Martyr: "...the Father of the universe has a Son; who being the logos and First-begotten is also God" (First Apology 63:15).
    Irenaeus: (referencing Jesus) "...in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, . . ." (Against Heresies I, x, 1).
    Clement of Alexandria: "Both as God and as man, the Lord renders us every kind of help and service. As God He forgives sin, as man He educates us to avoid sin completely" (Christ the Educator, chapter 3.1). In addition, "Our educator, O children, resembles His Father, God, whose son He is. He is without sin, without blame, without passion of soul, God immaculate in form of man accomplishing His Father's will" (Christ the Educator Chapter 2:4).
    Tertullian: "...the only God has also a Son, his Word who has proceeded from himself, by whom all things were made and without whom nothing has been made: that this was sent by the Father into the virgin and was born of her both man and God. Son of Man, Son of God, ..." (Against Praxeas, 2).
    Hippolytus: "And the blessed John in the testimony of his gospel, gives us an account of this economy and acknowledges this word as God, when he says, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.' If then the Word was with God and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two persons however, and of a third economy, the grace of the Holy Ghost" (Against the Heresy of One Noetus. 14).
    Origen: (with regard to John 1:1) "...the arrangement of the sentences might be thought to indicate an order; we have first, 'in the beginning was the Word,' then 'And the Word was with God,' and thirdly, 'and the Word was God,' so that it might be seen that the Word being with God makes Him God" (Commentary on John, Book 2, Chapter 1).
     
  5. Damon

    Damon New Member

    63
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    Ed, first of all, there is a big difference in "creating" something and "begetting" something. Look up the definitions. Secondly, you have put the doctrine of the Trinity into a box within human understanding and reject it based off the scripture you state. Care to take a stab at the scriptures in which Jesus claimed Deity? Jesus was a man. Jesus was God. One and the same. We may not be able to comprehend it, but look at it this way. Time itself consists of three elements, or natures. Past, present and future. Though they are independent of one another, they are ALL time. There are not three times, but three NATURES of time. By your reasoning, this is impossible. The other illustration, which I have posted before, comes from CS Lewis. We are able to comprehend a 3 dimensional world. If it were one dimension, you could draw a straight line. A second dimension enables us to put the lines together to create a square. A third dimension enables us to take the squares and create a cube. This would not be possible to comprehend if we only had knowledge of a single or double dimensioned world. In other words, add the third dimension, and you can combine things (lines, squares) in ways you couldn't have dreamed with the limited knowledge of one and two D perceptions.) Jesus was "...for a little while made a little lower than the Angels" (MAN) But "I tell you true, before Abraham was, I AM."
    John 1:1-2
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    He was in the beginning with God."
    John 1:14
    "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth."
     
  6. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    +37
    Christian
    I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe God is just that God...all good all powerful. I believe Jesus is the one and only son of God and died for our sins and lived to show us how to live. I believe the Holy Spirit guides us...through our thoughts and gives us morals and shows us our gifts. But I am not sure I believe in putting God into a trinity package and pretending to have it all figures out that the 3 are actually 1. I search for the truth according to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit not truth according to man and majority rules. Trinity is partially correct in the 3 as one in my belief as man and women unite in marriage and become one....Oneness as in one goal...One purpose. I don't have a need in a title of Trinity. My beliefs are that we should follow in Jesus' way and that God is beyond our minds to figure out....If you believe in Trinity fine if not fine as long as you follow in Jesus example of living love God and Jesus with all your soul all your heart all your being and listen to the Force that is within you as a Saved Christian....The Holy Spirit will guide you. Love and God Bless everyone. May God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
     
  7. TScott

    TScott Curmudgeon

    +145
    Non-Denom
    US-Democrat
    Whether Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are of the same essence or not it, was an interesting story how The Trinity came to be.

    Damon already mentioned the debate that took place during the first Church councils. Even though it was decided at that time that Jesus was God the debate went on for quite some time after that. There were too many contradictions in the Gospels for one thing. As Ed pointed out Jesus repeatedly defers to God throughout the Gospels making it seem that He certainly felt that he was subordinate to God, yet in the first chapter of the fourth Gospel John is clearly implying that Jesus is God.

    It took three bishops in Cappadocia to put the issue to rest (at least officially) at the Council of Constantanople in 381. One of the bishops, Gregory, summed up the language of the Cappadocian Document, later known as the Holy Trinity, in a sermon he gave. Here is an excerpt from the sermon:

    "What Christ was, he laid aside; what he was not he assumed. Not that he became two; rather he deigned to be made one out of two. Both are God, that which assumed and that which was assumed; two natures concurring in one, not two Sons.

    When I say "God", you must be illuminated in a flash by One Light and by Three: three in Personalities or Hypostases, or, if anyone prefer to call them so, Persons, for we will not quarrel about names if the syllables convey the same meaning: One by reason of essence or Godhead, they are distinguished among themselves indivisibly. . . and connected among them selves undividedly. The Godhead is One in Three, and the Three are One. . ."

    In other words three individuals of the same essence.
     
  8. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    My understanding is that Jesus the man isn't actually the Logos, but he allowed the Logos to become him and take over.
     
  9. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    These are some interesting ideas that all of you have. Your time is greatly appreciated. I thank you.

    Missy
     
  10. SCJ

    SCJ Veteran

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    Okay, briefly, I will explain then will go into some common misunderstandings if you like...for more detail.

    In simple terms, Christians believe:

    There is only one God, and this one God is in three Persons.

    The three persons are:
    -God the Father
    -God the Son (Jesus Christ)
    -God the Holy Spirit (also called the Holy Ghost)

    The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God, but they are not three names for the same Person. The persons are distinct:
    -The Father is not the Son.
    -The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
    -The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    God is one absolutely perfect divine Being is three Persons. His being is what God is, in relation to the universe he created. The three are called Persons because they relate to one another in personal ways.

    When Christians talk about believing in one God in three Persons (the Trinity), we do NOT mean:
    1 God in 3 Gods, or
    2 Persons in 1 Person, or
    1 Person in 3 Gods
    Rather we mean:
    1 God in 3 Persons

    Therefore,
    The Father is God – The first person of the Trinity
    The Son is God – The second person of the Trinity
    The Holy Spirit is God – The third person of the Trinity. (The title ‘Holy Ghost’ is an older English expression for ‘Holy Spirit)

    Why do I Believe in the Trinity?

    The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God, yet all three Persons are called God.

    There is only one God:
    - Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord. (Deut 6:4)
    - Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:10)

    The Father is God:
    - Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thessalonians 1:2)

    The Son is God:
    - The Word was God (John 1:1-5, 14) Jesus is defined as ‘The Word’
    - I and the Father are one. (John 10:30-33)
    - Jesus’ disciple Thomas addressed Jesus as “My Lord and my God.” (John 20:28)

    Jesus did not tell Thomas he was mistaken; instead Jesus accepted these titles. Other people in Scripture, notably Paul and Barnabus (Acts 14), refused to accept worship as gods.

    ---

    - But unto the Son he saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)
    - Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heave, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)


    Paul, the writer of Philippians, is saying about Jesus what Isaiah 45:23 says about the Lord, and then Paul concludes that Jesus is Lord, that is, the same Lord God of the Old Testament.

    More passages about Jesus’ deity:
    Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1; John 1:18; John 8:58-59; John 10:30; Acts 20:28; Romans 9:5; Romans 10:9-13; Colossians 1:15-16; Colossians 2:9; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:3,8; 2 Peter 1:1; 1 John 5:20.

    The Holy Spirit is God:
    - But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? … Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3-4)

    This verse equates the Holy Spirit with God

    - Now the Lord is that Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17)

    “The Lord” here refers to “The Lord” in the Old Testament verse (Exodus 34:34) Paul had just quoted in the previous verse (2 Corinthians 3:16).

    More than 60 Bible passages mention the three Persons together:

    Matthew 3:16-17 – “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

    Matthew 28:19 – “Go ye therefore, and teach all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

    1 Corinthians 13:14 – “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.”

    Ephesians 4:4-6 – “There is on body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in the hope of your calling; on Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

    Titus 3:4-6 – “But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour…”

    More:
    Romans 12:17-18; Romans 15:13-17; Romans 15:30
    1 Corinthians 6:11, 17-19; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22
    2 Corinthians 3:4-6
    Galatians 2:21 through 3:2
    Ephesians 2:18; Ephesians 3:11-17; Ephesians 5:18-20
    Philippians 2:1
    Colossians 1:6-8
    1 Thessalonians 1:1-5; 1 Thessalonians 3:5
    Hebrews 9:14
    1 Peter 1:2
    1 John 3:23-24
    Jude 20-21
     
  11. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    God created the Logos, so how can the Logos be God? That doesn't make sense.
     
  12. SCJ

    SCJ Veteran

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    John 1:1-
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    All things were made through Jesus, He is the creator. Jesus is God, so God is the Creator. Jesus, God, and The Holy Spirit are not created Beings.

    --

    Edit: Every capitalized 'Word' in the above is 'Logos' from the original.
     
  13. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    The Logos is the only thing that God created directly, everything else God created through the Logos.God cannot actually be the Logos as John implies, because the Bible says that God created the Logos in the beginning. The Logos is made divine by God, and the Logos is above everything else because God created the Logos directly, but the Logos can't be God...
     
  14. SCJ

    SCJ Veteran

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    Where does the Bible say God created the Logos in the beginning. I post my references...please post yours.
     
  15. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

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    1. First of all there is the belief that God is a Trinity. This is the belief of most Christians. According to this dogma God has three parts. One part is called Father, one part is called Son, and the other part is called Holy Spirit. All three parts, or persons make up one great being. This being has all power, all knowledge, and has existed forever with his three parts or persons.

    2. Second, there is the belief that God is only one Person, but that He reveals Himself in different ways at different times. For example, in the Old Testament He was the Father, then He (the same person) took on the form of the Son when Christ was on earth, and afterwards He became the Holy Spirit. This belief is commonly referred to as the “Jesus only” doctrine.

    3. Third, there is the belief that there are three almighty Beings who all have exactly the same authority and power and that they have all lived for all eternity. All three are said to be God, but because they are in agreement in everything they do, they are said to be one God. According to this belief, these three Beings (Gods) decided long, long ago to act in three different roles. One would act as Father, one as Son and one would work as Holy Spirit.

    4. Fourth, there is the belief that God is only one Person, and that this Person is the Father alone. It is said that Jesus Christ was created by God long, long ago and was set above the rest of creation. The Holy Spirit is said to be God’s power, or active force. This is the belief of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    Can all these ideas be correct? Of course not! It is clear that these people all worship different Gods!

    Jesus Himself said: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3) And yet, how can we know God if we do not even know who we are talking to when we call upon God? Do we mean:

    A. Three persons who are really one Being?

    B. One person operating in three ways?

    C. Three almighty beings acting in three roles?

    D. One person and a created Son?

    We have outlined four popular ideas, each one different from the other and yet none of these present the true, biblical teaching about God.

    Continue reading by clicking here:
    http://smyrna.org/Studies/Which_God.htm

    http://smyrna.org/Studies/God_of_the_Bible.htm
     
  16. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7


    Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.


    This is a clear view in Scripture of the Trinity.
     
  17. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    That passage depicts the father, the son, and the holy spirit as three separate beings, not as one being.
     
  18. TScott

    TScott Curmudgeon

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    According to the Trinity they are individuals that share the same essence. Whatever that means. Three individuals that share the same existence, maybe?
     
  19. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    For a long time, I couldn't get my mind around the concept of the Trinity. One day when I was reading my bible it seemed to become clearer to me. I had always believed that Jesus was God in the first place, but I didn't know if I liked the word Trinity..so I guess it is a matter of semantics..because I still felt a little strange about the word Trinity. I felt like that word means 3 instead of one.

    I think my main problem was that I had a hard time accepting something that the bible does not say directly. Specifically because the actual word Trinity is not in the bible. Since I am a Sola Scriptura believer.

    I do see the divinity of Jesus and I see Him as being God. To me, Jesus is just a part of God . Jesus is God wrapped in flesh.

    In Matthew, when Jesus went into the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights, he said to the devil when the devil attempted to tempt him, "It is written, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." If Jesus is not God, why would he make that statement to the devil ?

    I believe the Holy Spirit is God, and if the Holy Spirit is God and Jesus is God then they all must be one in the same. Here is my biblical evidence:

    1) JOB 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. {Creator}

    2) MATTHEW 12:31 . . . All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy {against} the {Holy} Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. {only God can be blasphemed}

    3) JOHN 4:24 God {is} a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship {him} in spirit and in truth.

    4) ACTS 5:3-4,9 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back {part} of the price of the land? (4) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God . . . (9) Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband {are} at the door, and shall carry thee out. {the Holy Spirit is unquestionably called God, by simple deduction}

    5) ACTS 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. {only God calls}


    In these scriptures Jesus reveals the himself as the image of the Father (God):

    JOHN 14:7-9 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. (8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. (9) Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou {then}, Shew us the Father?

    2 CORINTHIANS 4:4 . . . Christ, who is the image of God, . . .

    COLOSSIANS 1:15 . . . the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    HEBREWS 1:3 Who being the brightness of {his} glory, and the express image of his person, . . .

    REVELATION 22:1,3-4 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb . . . (3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (4) And they shall see his face; . .


    Well that's my take on it.
     
  20. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    The Trinity doctrine says that they are all the same being.
    It was made up by the church during the 3rd century in an attempt to explain how Jesus and God his Father could both be divine at the same time, and yet there only be one God. They wanted to eliminate the idea of tritheism. Before this doctrine was created, there was no 'official' view of God.
     
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