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The trinity is foundational, not an option

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Marieke589, Feb 12, 2019.

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  1. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand how Jesus was begotten by God the Father as a human. God doesn't beget humans, he creates them...
     
  2. cafefan374

    cafefan374 Moderate Centrist

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    Trinitarian here but I respect those who have the perspective based on the book of Acts as well.
     
  3. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Humm don't see that. I am not the greatest writer. Feel free to rewrite it if its worded incorrectly.
     
  4. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is this really a word?
     
  5. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is Church language to describe the nature of Godliness. Just like the Catholic Church made up the term transubstantiation to describe something concerning God's word/God(not endorsing this belief of theirs just giving an example). The Catholics made up a word to describe something, the oneness Pentecostals use the word manifestation and put a Tri in front of it to indicate that it was a three fold manifestation that occurs simultaneously.

    If one Church can make up words to describe something, why can't another? At least with Trimanifestation its pretty clear what it's talking about.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  6. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where?
     
  7. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    That is quite a work around they invented. I would say it is rather clever (although it is still wrong). A person cannot be forgiven if they speak bad words against the Holy Ghost and yet a person can be forgiven if they speak bad words against the Son. So if God manifests simultaneously in three forms why does speaking against the name of one particular manifestation lead to never being forgiven? It makes no sense.
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    But he did begat one human...he is God and thus this is of course not difficult for him to accomplish.
     
  9. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    Sorry to butt into your conversation but I thought I might be able to add something that helps me make sense of it all.

    God (The Godhead) is one essence in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), this is basic early Church Fathers description of the The Holy Trinity.

    I found this pic which I pinched off the internet helps to make a little sense of it all...

    trinity-wallpaper-16.png

    blessings, Gordon
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  10. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    count me in...
     
  11. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    I'm not an expert on what they believe, but based on what I know(and if any have studied more on their beliefs I would be happy for the correction if I am wrong) since it is a different manifestation/mode it is different from blaspheming the Son or the Father because it is a different mode/form. Again it would be better for you to seek out one of them and ask them what they believe, I am no expert I only really know the basics of their beliefs.
     
  12. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    He beget a man? Eh, I don't agree with that premise; not only does that not make sense in the realm of reality, but to be consistent leads to many theological problems. God's Son took on human flesh (body and soul), joining the two natures, but there was never a time he was not begotten.

    People hate creeds, but they greatly protect the Church from adopting strange views.
     
  13. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    As a Christian one of the tenets of the Doctrine of the Trinity and the arianism heresy denies the Doctrine of Trinity. So, if one denies the Doctrine of Trinity then one denies a core Christian doctrine.

    The following link provides a reasonable description of the arianism heresy:

    Arianism | Christianity
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  14. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    You have presented here a very good, rather easy to understand description of what the Trinity is and what it's not.

    I had to go look up John 14:10 & 17:21 in the Greek to see if I could get a better sense of what it means. I found the word "in" has different applications.

    Here's my theory of what would seem reasonable to me that it would mean.

    i picture a circle which represents the essence of God's character and maybe even attributes. God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, having no beginning and no end, even "immortal" except in the course of this current universe when the Son took on a human nature. Obviously Jesus's humanity was "killable".

    The persons of the Trinity are in that circle of what it represents to be Divine. When Jesus talks about being "in" the Father and the Father "in" him. I don't think that's talking about one being (entity) inside another being; as we associate the Holy Ghost indwelling a believer. I don't see there'd be a practical reason for God to be "inside Himself" in that matter. The notion is silly; for if all 3 persons are wholly God, such arrangement would not be necessary.

    It seems more reasonable to me that They are united in the intent, purpose and nature of Divinity; all of the same "substance" (how ever it is we would define what "substance" God is "made out of".)

    If that makes sense?

    Jesus never says the Spirit is "in him". Yet the Spirit didn't have to be "in" Jesus because Jesus had his own Divine nature (literally) "in" him. What's missing from the equation is that Jesus never talks about the Spirit being "in" the Father or vice versa. So, I'm not exactly sure what that means; but it seems to me this could have something to do with Jesus's humanity.

    So that is my "working idea" so to speak and I'd be interested in hearing your feed back about it; as well as your thoughts about imagery we get from the Bible concerning the Father sitting on the throne. The lamb that was slain stands before Him to open the scrolls. The son sits down at the right hand of God the Father. etc.

    I acknowledge that the use of this imagery very well may be conveying something to us in a form we can understand, because our only context to be able to relate to, is of our experience of existing in a material world. I've heard people say the "ancient of days" sitting on the throne is Christ; but I'm not inclined to think that is accurate either.

    The thing I find intriguing in this imagery is the Father depicted as an entity with a body. Obviously the Father (materially speaking) does not have a body. Yet God as an entity consists of "something". He's obviously "real"; even if the only way we are capable of grasping that realness is through pictorial "allegory" presented in material format.

    Does any of that make sense?

    The other pondering "floating around" in my head; has to do with the fact that Jesus was the only person of the Godhead to exist in a material form. And thus the necessity for an incorruptible material universe to eventually be created. It is a manifestation of God's expression of creativity.

    What happens when an eternally existent entity decides to... make things! LOL
     
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    That's what the bible says.

    Heb_5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
     
  16. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    @New Birth CF is based on trinitarian teachings.
     
  17. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    The same passage is used to defend eternal generation, if you didn't know that.

    It is understood that "today" isn't referring to a specific time, but that eternity. The passage is taken from Psalm 2:7.
     
  18. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    All I am proving is God the Father did begat someone, his Son Jesus Christ.
     
  19. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    But I think the disagreement is that you see him as God's son by natural procreation, which I don't know how that works (and I am afraid to know the possibilities).
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    I never said anything of the sort. The Holy Spirit conceiving a child in Mary is hardly "natural procreation".
     
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