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The trinity is foundational, not an option

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Marieke589, Feb 12, 2019.

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  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's a synopsis of the historic position.

    (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: “Now this is the catholic [universal] faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”
     
  2. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    Of course I dont believe this creed. Jesus himself said He was the Father. Also the old test states the messiah would be the Everlasting Father. The Creed is in direct opposition to scripture.
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You do not understand scripture. The creed is correct having passed strenuous debate and is yet to be proven wrong.
     
  4. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    Ok Jesus plainly says He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. John 14:9
    Isaiah 9:6 ....The mighty God, The everlasting Father.
    Sorry but the creed is wrong. If it goes against the scriptures why agree with it?
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Son is the express image of the Father just as your picture is the express image of you.

    “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” (Hebrews 1:3) (KJV 1900)

    How does the Father sit next to the Father?
     
  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    This is one of the reasons why I believe the KJV is the Word of God for our day. Modern Bible translations remove the one and only verse that is clearest to describe the Trinity in our Bible (1 John 5:7).

    Granted, I use Modern Translations to help update the language in the KJV, but I make the KJV my final word of authority.

    Anyways, getting back on topic. You are right. The Trinity is under attack. All truths of God are under attack. We have to pray for our enemies and boldly preach the Word of God in these last days.
     
  7. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    So you do believe that Jesus is the visible image of the Father. Thats good your on the right track. But you think the Father has some physical body "like a person I assume" and you think Jesus in His glorified Body sits beside the Fathers physical body. Do you see a problem with this? There is one throne and one seated on the throne of God and the Lamb. So what does the "right hand" mean? How many does it take to have one throne and one on the throne.
     
  8. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    What does the scripture mean when it say in Isaiah 9:6 that the child will be the everlasting Father? How many everlasting Fathers can there be?
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God is Spirit, not flesh.
     
  10. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Jesus is our everlasting Father because we will one day be resurrected bodily after His flesh and blood.
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Also father = teacher sometimes.
     
  12. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    really thats the best you can do to skirt around it. seriously?
     
  13. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    You gotta be kidding. you dont even believe that.
     
  14. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    You are incorrect, friend.
    The Bible teaches...

    The Trinity:

    For the Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

    Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

    Here are a couple of quick points:

    #1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
    #2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
    #3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
    #4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9-10, Daniel 7:13-14) (John 14:16)
    #5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
    #6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
    #7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalms 2:1-12) (Psalms 45:6-7) (Psalms 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).​

    The Trinity is told to us in one verse.

    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
    (1 John 5:7).​

    How can you have three that bear record in Heaven if they are all the same? They are each distinctive in that they are three and yet, they are one. It's not a contradiction to say this. How so?

    Romans 1:20 says,
    "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

    Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).

    Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
    Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
    Colors of White Light = Red, Blue, Green.
    Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.​

    So there are things that can be three and yet they are one.

    Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

    For me one of the biggest evidences for the Trinity is that the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed and never be forgiven and yet speaking a word against the Son can be forgiven:

    “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matthew 12:32).

    Important Note: Only God can be blasphemed.

    The Father Sent The Holy Spirit

    The Bible says that God the Father sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus said.

    "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you" (John 14:26).​

    The Father will send the Holy Spirit, not Himself, to help believers.

    There Is A Difference Between The Father And The Holy Spirit

    The Holy Spirit does the will of God the Father. Paul wrote.

    "And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will" (Romans 8:27).​

    The most clearest verse in Scripture that describes the Trinity is 1 John 5:7. This verse appears in the King James Version but it is wrongfully removed from many Modern Translations.

    1 John 5:7 in the King James says,

    "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."​

    The King James existed long before Modern Translations showed up.

    Now, there are two wrong extremes people have made involving the Trinity.

    #1. Modalism
    (Which is a belief held by United Pentecostals).
    This says that there is no distinctive persons within the Godhead. That God the Father just puts on a mask and pretends to be the Son; Others believe it says all three persons are smashed together whereby the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost do not have any kind of distinctiveness anymore. But the Bible makes it clear that the Father sent the Son to die for our sins (And it was not the Son sending the Father) (1 John 4:14). The Bible makes it clear that one cannot be forgiven if they speak a word against the Holy Spirit but yet, this is not the case if one speaks a word against the Son, though (Matthew 12:32).

    #2. Tritheism
    (Which is a belief held by Mormons).
    This says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods. This is polytheism or the worship of more than one God. But the Bible makes it clear that the Lord our God is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

    Then there is the correct view of the Trinity.

    The Lord our God exists as one God, but He exists as three distinct persons (i.e. The Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Ghost). All three persons co-existed as one God for all eternity. Also, in the Trinity, the Father and the Son and can dwell within one another despite their distinctiveness as persons within the Godhead, too. For Jesus said He dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in Him (John 14:10) (John 17:21).


    Source used for Holy Spirit being distinct from the Father:
    Is the Holy Spirit a Distinct Person from God the Father?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  15. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    #1. Modalism This is a Joke, this is not what the United Pentecostals Believe.
    (Which is a belief held by United Pentecostals).
    This says that there is no distinctive persons within the Godhead. That God the Father just puts on a mask and pretends to be the Son; Others believe it says all three persons are smashed together whereby the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost do not have any kind of distinctiveness anymore. But the Bible makes it clear that the Father sent the Son to die for our sins (And it was not the Son sending the Father) (1 John 4:14). The Bible makes it clear that one cannot be forgiven if they speak a word against the Holy Spirit but yet, this is not the case if one speaks a word against the Son, though (Matthew 12:32).

    The question is do you believe there are three Spirits of God or one Spirit 3 manifestations?
     
  16. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Yes, I believe that. You simply are unaware of this truth.
     
  17. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    yea along with the writers of scripture, they seemed to miss that little fact.
     
  18. Bruce Leiter

    Bruce Leiter Member

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    I agree that the fact that God is three Persons in one God is foundational to the Christian faith. I assume that by "oneness" you mean the false, pantheistic idea that we are "one" with the universe. People's rejection of the mystery of the Trinity often comes from their reason's inability to accept the mystery of God's mysterious mathematics that with him 1 + 1 = 1, not 3. His mystery means to me that our puny minds can't grasp his greatness.
     
  19. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Here it is from Wikipedia:

    "Oneness Pentecostalism (also known as Apostolic or Jesus' Name Pentecostalism) is a movement within the Christian family of churches known as Pentecostalism. It derives its distinctive name from its teaching on the Godhead, which is popularly referred to as the "Oneness doctrine," a form of Modalistic Monarchianism. This doctrine states that there is one God, a singular divine Spirit, who manifests himself in many ways, including as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. "

    Source:
    Oneness Pentecostalism - Wikipedia

    Gotquestions also confirms that United Pentecostals believe in Modalism.

    What is the United Pentecostal Church?

    Neither.

    God is one spirit being or one God, but He also exists as three distinct persons. Think of it like this (although it is a crude pictorial example):

    [​IMG]

    So they are three persons and yet connected as one God.

    Now, imagine if these paper cut outs were three dimensional like bottles that were fillable with liquid. I poured a red color liquid in one person. This would represent one member or person of the Trinity. The other one would be a blue liquid. Now if I took the red liquid and mixed it in the blue, this is what it would be like when Jesus says He is one with the Father. Do you get it?
     
  20. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    The mathematical equation would be:

    1 x 1 x 1 = 1.
     
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