The trinity is foundational, not an option

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Jonaitis

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I do not believe in eternal generation. I believe Jesus was begotten as flesh at a period in time. That there is no relationship consisting of two or more persons within the Godhead before the incarnation.

I don't understand how Jesus was begotten by God the Father as a human. God doesn't beget humans, he creates them...
 
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Maria Billingsley

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You unknowingly just stated the Trinitarian position of the Godhead that the Father Son and Spirit work separately in different modes. You might want to rethink your post.
Humm don't see that. I am not the greatest writer. Feel free to rewrite it if its worded incorrectly.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Is this really a word?
Yes, it is Church language to describe the nature of Godliness. Just like the Catholic Church made up the term transubstantiation to describe something concerning God's word/God(not endorsing this belief of theirs just giving an example). The Catholics made up a word to describe something, the oneness Pentecostals use the word manifestation and put a Tri in front of it to indicate that it was a three fold manifestation that occurs simultaneously.

If one Church can make up words to describe something, why can't another? At least with Trimanifestation its pretty clear what it's talking about.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Oneness Pentecostal believe in the Trimanifestion of God simultaneously.

That is quite a work around they invented. I would say it is rather clever (although it is still wrong). A person cannot be forgiven if they speak bad words against the Holy Ghost and yet a person can be forgiven if they speak bad words against the Son. So if God manifests simultaneously in three forms why does speaking against the name of one particular manifestation lead to never being forgiven? It makes no sense.
 
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ewq1938

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I don't understand how Jesus was begotten by God the Father as a human. God doesn't beget humans, he creates them...

But he did begat one human...he is God and thus this is of course not difficult for him to accomplish.
 
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gordonhooker

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You are making perfect sense. What you have stated is the Oneness position of the Godhead.

Sorry to butt into your conversation but I thought I might be able to add something that helps me make sense of it all.

God (The Godhead) is one essence in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), this is basic early Church Fathers description of the The Holy Trinity.

I found this pic which I pinched off the internet helps to make a little sense of it all...

trinity-wallpaper-16.png


blessings, Gordon
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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That is quite a work around they invented. I would say it is rather clever (although it is still wrong). A person cannot be forgiven if they speak bad words against the Holy Ghost and yet a person can be forgiven if they speak bad words against the Son. So if God manifests simultaneously in three forms why does speaking against the name of one particular manifestation lead to never being forgiven? It makes no sense.
I'm not an expert on what they believe, but based on what I know(and if any have studied more on their beliefs I would be happy for the correction if I am wrong) since it is a different manifestation/mode it is different from blaspheming the Son or the Father because it is a different mode/form. Again it would be better for you to seek out one of them and ask them what they believe, I am no expert I only really know the basics of their beliefs.
 
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Jonaitis

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But he did begat one human...he is God and thus this is of course not difficult for him to accomplish.

He beget a man? Eh, I don't agree with that premise; not only does that not make sense in the realm of reality, but to be consistent leads to many theological problems. God's Son took on human flesh (body and soul), joining the two natures, but there was never a time he was not begotten.

People hate creeds, but they greatly protect the Church from adopting strange views.
 
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gordonhooker

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What';s wrong with arianism?

As a Christian one of the tenets of the Doctrine of the Trinity and the arianism heresy denies the Doctrine of Trinity. So, if one denies the Doctrine of Trinity then one denies a core Christian doctrine.

The following link provides a reasonable description of the arianism heresy:

Arianism | Christianity
 
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The Righterzpen

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You are incorrect, friend.
The Bible teaches...

The Trinity:

For the Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9-10, Daniel 7:13-14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalms 2:1-12) (Psalms 45:6-7) (Psalms 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).​

The Trinity is told to us in one verse.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
(1 John 5:7).​

How can you have three that bear record in Heaven if they are all the same? They are each distinctive in that they are three and yet, they are one. It's not a contradiction to say this. How so?

Romans 1:20 says,
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).

Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
Colors of White Light = Red, Blue, Green.
Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.​

So there are things that can be three and yet they are one.

Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

For me one of the biggest evidences for the Trinity is that the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed and never be forgiven and yet speaking a word against the Son can be forgiven:

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matthew 12:32).

Important Note: Only God can be blasphemed.

The Father Sent The Holy Spirit

The Bible says that God the Father sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus said.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you" (John 14:26).​

The Father will send the Holy Spirit, not Himself, to help believers.

There Is A Difference Between The Father And The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit does the will of God the Father. Paul wrote.

"And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will" (Romans 8:27).​

The most clearest verse in Scripture that describes the Trinity is 1 John 5:7. This verse appears in the King James Version but it is wrongfully removed from many Modern Translations.

1 John 5:7 in the King James says,

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."​

The King James existed long before Modern Translations showed up.

Now, there are two wrong extremes people have made involving the Trinity.

#1. Modalism
(Which is a belief held by United Pentecostals).
This says that there is no distinctive persons within the Godhead. That God the Father just puts on a mask and pretends to be the Son; Others believe it says all three persons are smashed together whereby the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost do not have any kind of distinctiveness anymore. But the Bible makes it clear that the Father sent the Son to die for our sins (And it was not the Son sending the Father) (1 John 4:14). The Bible makes it clear that one cannot be forgiven if they speak a word against the Holy Spirit but yet, this is not the case if one speaks a word against the Son, though (Matthew 12:32).

#2. Tritheism
(Which is a belief held by Mormons).
This says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods. This is polytheism or the worship of more than one God. But the Bible makes it clear that the Lord our God is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Then there is the correct view of the Trinity.

The Lord our God exists as one God, but He exists as three distinct persons (i.e. The Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Ghost). All three persons co-existed as one God for all eternity. Also, in the Trinity, the Father and the Son and can dwell within one another despite their distinctiveness as persons within the Godhead, too. For Jesus said He dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in Him (John 14:10) (John 17:21).


Source used for Holy Spirit being distinct from the Father:
Is the Holy Spirit a Distinct Person from God the Father?


You have presented here a very good, rather easy to understand description of what the Trinity is and what it's not.

I had to go look up John 14:10 & 17:21 in the Greek to see if I could get a better sense of what it means. I found the word "in" has different applications.

Here's my theory of what would seem reasonable to me that it would mean.

i picture a circle which represents the essence of God's character and maybe even attributes. God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, having no beginning and no end, even "immortal" except in the course of this current universe when the Son took on a human nature. Obviously Jesus's humanity was "killable".

The persons of the Trinity are in that circle of what it represents to be Divine. When Jesus talks about being "in" the Father and the Father "in" him. I don't think that's talking about one being (entity) inside another being; as we associate the Holy Ghost indwelling a believer. I don't see there'd be a practical reason for God to be "inside Himself" in that matter. The notion is silly; for if all 3 persons are wholly God, such arrangement would not be necessary.

It seems more reasonable to me that They are united in the intent, purpose and nature of Divinity; all of the same "substance" (how ever it is we would define what "substance" God is "made out of".)

If that makes sense?

Jesus never says the Spirit is "in him". Yet the Spirit didn't have to be "in" Jesus because Jesus had his own Divine nature (literally) "in" him. What's missing from the equation is that Jesus never talks about the Spirit being "in" the Father or vice versa. So, I'm not exactly sure what that means; but it seems to me this could have something to do with Jesus's humanity.

So that is my "working idea" so to speak and I'd be interested in hearing your feed back about it; as well as your thoughts about imagery we get from the Bible concerning the Father sitting on the throne. The lamb that was slain stands before Him to open the scrolls. The son sits down at the right hand of God the Father. etc.

I acknowledge that the use of this imagery very well may be conveying something to us in a form we can understand, because our only context to be able to relate to, is of our experience of existing in a material world. I've heard people say the "ancient of days" sitting on the throne is Christ; but I'm not inclined to think that is accurate either.

The thing I find intriguing in this imagery is the Father depicted as an entity with a body. Obviously the Father (materially speaking) does not have a body. Yet God as an entity consists of "something". He's obviously "real"; even if the only way we are capable of grasping that realness is through pictorial "allegory" presented in material format.

Does any of that make sense?

The other pondering "floating around" in my head; has to do with the fact that Jesus was the only person of the Godhead to exist in a material form. And thus the necessity for an incorruptible material universe to eventually be created. It is a manifestation of God's expression of creativity.

What happens when an eternally existent entity decides to... make things! LOL
 
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ewq1938

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He beget a man?


That's what the bible says.

Heb_5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
 
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Jonaitis

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That's what the bible says.

Heb_5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

The same passage is used to defend eternal generation, if you didn't know that.

It is understood that "today" isn't referring to a specific time, but that eternity. The passage is taken from Psalm 2:7.
 
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ewq1938

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The same passage is used to defend eternal generation, if you didn't know that.

It is understood that "today" isn't referring to a specific time, but that eternity. The passage is taken from Psalm 2:7.

All I am proving is God the Father did begat someone, his Son Jesus Christ.
 
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Jonaitis

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All I am proving is God the Father did begat someone, his Son Jesus Christ.

But I think the disagreement is that you see him as God's son by natural procreation, which I don't know how that works (and I am afraid to know the possibilities).
 
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ewq1938

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But I think the disagreement is that you see him as God's son by natural procreation


I never said anything of the sort. The Holy Spirit conceiving a child in Mary is hardly "natural procreation".
 
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