The trinity - could somebody explain this to me?

[Ryft]

Hello Ryft,

I am sorry for telling you what to think, rather than listening to what you have to say. Yet this thread isnt a debate, but rather an explantion of the Trinity. Is the doctrine of Trinity bibical, or man-made? History has proved that man has worshipped more than one god. But if you, both Asar'el and Ryft, do support the Doctrine of trinity as true sound doctrine, can you please explain to me how you view the following 14 verses:

How are any of those 14 passages cited supposed to impact the doctrine of the Trinity? Are they supposed to show that there is only one God? Trinitarians believe that also, and use such passages themselves. According to the trinitarian model, there is only one God. Are those passages supposed to show that we are to worship no other God? We believe that also. Are they supposed to show that God is the sovereign creator, sustainer, redeemer? We believe that too. How are any of those 14 passages cited supposed to impact the doctrine of the Trinity?

 

[shawn_h76]

Hello,

Lets recap here.

1. We both agree that Jesus Chirst is God almighty
2. We both also agree that There is only one God

I believe that, and it seems like you believe that as well. But , you say there are Two other Gods, or known as "persons".

Jesus made is clear that if you don't believe he is God almighty you will die in your sins(john8:24)

Correct me if im wrong, but im going to state the trinity doctrine.

ONe God. Yet three persons.

1. God the father
2. God the son
3. God the holy spirit

Correct me if im wrong, but you state that each "person" is fully God, and co-equal. You also state that they are seperated.
trinity.
one God. yet three persons.

1. God the father-seperate-yet call fully God
2. God the son--seperate-yet call fully God
3. God the Hoyl ghost-seperate-yet call fully God

So, if each person is seperate and have their own will, and each person is fully God yet seperate, then that makes them three seperate god's. Think about it. three seperate different persons, each fully God. What would that make? one god or three gods?

If Jesus christ is God, then he was the one talking in the old testament. Because God in the old testament says there is no God besides him and he created the heaven alone.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Deuteronomy 64 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

If Jesus is not God the father,then he is not to be worshipped at all!
God the father made it clear he shares his glory with nobody!

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Revelation 5
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
so it must of been Jesus Christ talking in isaiah 42:8

isaih 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

1 Timothy 316 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

My example: the smilies represent each person in the trinity. the titles are above the smilies.

1.God the father 2. God the son 3. God the holy ghost =trinity
=God =God =God


Above are three seperate persons each co-eqaul and each fully God.
this doesnt line up with the word of God.

isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Shawn, huge font sizes do not an argument make.

The three are seperated, you say.

Yes. They are seperate in their personhood. They are one in their Godhood.

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that the One God could vest Himself in three Persons?

 

[HeatherJay]

The same God that IS the Father, IS Jesus...so there's no need to worry there...we all believe that...Jesus is most definitely worthy of worship and praise.

And, co-equal parts of the Triune God, yes...but nowhere did anyone state that there are 3 separate wills from each of the 3 'persons'. There is only the will of God...the will of the Father, the will of the Son, the will of the Holy Spirit are all the same...the will of God.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The following is from http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/index.html



... the only-begotten Son of God ...





Jesus is one with God as His only-begotten Son. This is the gospel proclamation formulated by the holy fathers of the Nicene Council in the following way:

... and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages: Light of Light. True God of True God. Begotten not made. Of one essence with the Father. Through whom all things were made ...​

These lines speak about the Son of God, also called the Word or Logos of God, before his birth in human flesh from the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem.

There is but one eternal Son of God. He is called the Only-begotten, which means the only one born of God the Father. Begotten as a word simply means born or generated.

The Son of God is born from the Father "before all ages"; that is, before creation, before the commencement of time. Time has its beginning in creation. God exists before time, in an eternally timeless existence without beginning or end.

Eternity as a word does not mean endless time. It means the condition of no time at all -- no past or future, just a constant present. For God there is no past or future. For God, all is now.

In the eternal "now" of God, before the creation of the world, God the Father gave birth to his only-begotten Son in what can only be termed an eternal, timeless, always presently-existing generation. This means that although the Son is "begotten of the Father" and comes forth from the Father, his coming forth is eternal. Thus, there never was a "time" when there was no Son of God. This is specifically what the heretic Arius taught. It is the doctrine formally condemned by the first ecumenical council.



Although born of the Father and having his origin in Him, the only-begotten Son always existed, or rather more accurately always "exists" as uncreated, eternal and divine. Thus, the Gospel of St. John says:

In the beginning was the Word [the Logos-Son], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (Jn 1:1)​

As the eternally-born of God and always existing with the Father in the "timeless generation," the Son is truly "Light of Light, True God of True God." For God is Light and what is born of Him must be Light. And God is True God, and what is born of Him must be True God.

We know from the created order of things that what is born must be essentially the same as what gives birth. If one comes from the very being of another, one must be the very same thing. He cannot be essentially different. Thus, men give birth to men, and birds to birds, fish to fish, flowers to flowers.

If God, then, in the super-abundant fullness and perfection of His divine being gives birth to a Son, the Son must be the same as the Father in all things -- except, of course, in the fact of his being the Son.

Thus, if the Father is divinely and eternally perfect, true, wise, good, loving, and all of the things that we know God is: "ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, ever-existing and eternally the same" (to quote this text of the Liturgy once more), then the Son must be all of these things as well. To think that what is born of God must be less than God, says one saint of the Church, is to dishonor to God.

The Son is "begotten not made, of one essence with the Father." "Begotten not made" may also be put "born and not created." Everything which exists besides God is created by Him: all things visible and invisible. But the Son of God is not a creature. He was not created by God or made by Him. He was born, begotten, generated from the very being and nature of the Father. It belongs to the very nature of God-to God as God -- according to divine revelation as understood by the Orthodox, that God is an eternal Father by nature, and that He should always have with Him his eternal, uncreated Son.

It belongs to the very nature of God that He should be such a being if He is truly and perfectly divine. It belongs to God's very divine nature that He should not be eternally alone in his divinity, but that His very being as Love and Goodness should naturally "overflow itself" and "reproduce itself" in the generation of a divine Son: the "Son of His Love" as the Apostle Paul has called him (Col 1:13, inaccurately translated in English).

Thus, there is an abyss drawn between the created and the uncreated, between God and everything else which God has made out of nothing. The Son of God, born of the Father before all ages, is not created. He was not made out of nothing. He was eternally begotten from the divine being of the Father. He belongs "on the side of God."

Having been born and not made, the Son of God is what God is. The expression of one essence simply means this: what God the Father is, so also -- is the Son of God. Essence is from the Latin word esse which means to be. The essence of a thing answers the question What is it? What the Father is, the Son is. The Father is divine, the Son is divine. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated. The Father is God and the Son is God. This is what men confess when they say "the only-begotten Son of God ... of one essence with the Father."

Being always with the Father, the Son is also one life, one will, one power and one action with Him. Whatever the Father is, the Son is; and so whatever the Father does, the Son does as well. The original act of God outside of His divine existence is the act of creation. The Father is creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in the act of creation, as -- we confess in the Symbol of Faith, the Son is the one by whom all things were made.



The Son acts in creation as the one who accomplishes the Father's will. The divine act of creation-and, indeed, every action toward the world in revelation, salvation, and glorification -- is willed by the Father and accomplished by the Son (we will speak of the Holy Spirit below) in one identical divine action. Thus, we have the Genesis account of God creating through His divine word ("God said..."), and in the Gospel of St. John the following specific revelation:

He [the Word-Son] was in the beginning with God [the Father]; all things were made through [or by] him and without him was not anything made that was made" (Jn 1:2-3).​

This is the exact doctrine of the Apostle Paul as well:

... in him [the Son] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers-all things were created through him and for him. He is before an things and in him all things hold together (Col 1:16-17).​

Thus, the eternal Son of God is confessed as the one "by whom all things were made." (Heb 1: 2; 2:10; Rom I 1 : 36 )

The Symbol of Faith continues: ... Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man ...

The divine Son of God was born in human flesh for the salvation of the world. This is the central doctrine of the Orthodox Christian Faith; the entire life of Christians is built upon this fact.

The Symbol of Faith stresses that it is "for us men and for our salvation" that the Son of God has come. This is the most critical biblical doctrine, that "God so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (Jn 3:16, quoted at each Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at the center of the eucharistic prayer).



Because of his perfect love, God sent forth his Son into the world. God knew in the very act of creation that to have a world at all would require the incarnation of his Son in human flesh. Incarnation as a word means "enfleshment" in the sense of taking on the wholeness of human nature, body and soul.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as the only-begotten Son of the Father. And from his fullness have we all received grace upon grace" (Jn 1:14-16).​

... came down from heaven ...




The affirmation that the Son has "come down from heaven and was incarnate" does not mean that the Son is located somewhere "up there" in the universe and then descended onto the planet earth. That He came "down from heaven" is the Biblical way of saying that the Son of God came from the totally "other" divine existence of God, outside the bounds and limits of all space and time located within the created, physical universe. In general we must remember again the symbolical character of all of our words and affirmations about God.

The affirmation that the Son came "down from heaven" also should not be interpreted in the sense that before the incarnation the Son of God was totally absent from the world. The Son was always "in the world" for the "world was made through Him" (Jn 1:10). He was always present in the world for He is personally the life and the light of man (1 Jn 4).

As "created in the image and likeness of God," every man -- just by being a man -- is already a reflection of the divine Son, who is Himself the uncreated image of God (Col 1:15 ; Heb 1:3). Thus, the Son, or Word, or Image, or Radiance of God, as He is called in Scriptures, was always "in the world" by being always present in every of his "created images," not only as their creator, but also as the one whose very being all creatures are made to share and to reflect. Thus, in his incarnation, the Son comes personally to the world and becomes Himself a man. But even before the incarnation He was always in the world by the presence and power of his creative actions in his creatures, particularly in man.

In addition to this, it is also Orthodox doctrine that the manifestation of God to the saints of the Old Testament, the so-called theophanies (which means divine manifestations), were manifestations of the Father, by, through and in his Son or Logos. Thus, for example, the manifestations to Moses, Elias or Isaiah are mediated by God's divine and uncreated Son.



It is the Orthodox teaching as well that the Word of God which came to the Old Testament prophets and saints, and the very words of the Old Testament Law of Moses, which are called in Hebrew the "words" and not as we say in English, the "commandments", are also revelations of God by his Son, the Divine Word. Thus, for example, we have Old Testamental witness to the revelation of God's Word, such as that of the Prophet Isaiah, in almost the same personalistic form as is found in the Christian gospel:

For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I propose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it (Isa 55:10-11).​

Thus, before His personal birth of the Virgin Mary as the man Jesus, the divine Son and Word of God was in the world by His presence and action in creation, particularly in man. He was present and active; also in the theophanies to the Old Testament saints; and in the words of the law and the prophets, both oral and scriptural.

 

[Asar'el]

Hello,

Lets recap here.

1. We both agree that Jesus Chirst is God almighty
2. We both also agree that There is only one God

I believe that, and it seems like you believe that as well. But , you say there are Two other Gods, or known as "persons".

... 8><-- snip

As someone else said, font size does not a good argument make; and the rest of your post which you offer (repeatedly) in defense of your mistake is really irrelevant to it.


We do NOT say 'there are Two other Gods, or known as "persons"'


You say Jesus Christ is God.
Unless I am very much mistaken, you also say one of the following things:
1) that the Father is just another name of Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost is just another name of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is (exactly, and no different than) the Father; and Jesus Christ is (exactly, and no different than) the Holy Ghost.
2) the Father and the Holy Ghost do not exist.
3) the Father and the Holy Ghost and are not Jesus Christ, and are not God.


Please clarify which of the above opinions you hold, and we will address it; if you hold to something other than those, please make it clear also.

 

[shawn_h76]

Jesus said he was the holy spirit 7 times. read revelations 1-3

Revelation 2
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 313 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

the bible says God is a spirit. John4:24

The bible also says that there is ONE SPIRIT not three.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Jesus's name is the everlasting father and the mighty God.

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


John 14
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

God the father was in Jesus, that was possible because the spirit in Jesus was God the father. For Jesus is God the father.

John 14
18 I[Jesus] will not leave you comfortless: I[Jesus] will come to you.
What could of jesus mean in john 14:8? Jesus is the comforter.

ALPHA AND OMEGA

In Revelation 21:6-7 the Alpha and Omega, who is unmistakenly Jesus Christ (Rev. 22:12-13,16), tells true believers that he will be their God and Father: I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

If I'm his son, then he's my Father, and if he is also God, then He is God my Father!

 

[Asar'el]

Jesus said ...
8><---- [another snip]

I will take that long post to be your answer to my post; you therefore hold,
that the Father is just another name of Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost is just another name of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is (exactly, and no different than) the Father; and Jesus Christ is (exactly, and no different than) the Holy Ghost.

While you concentrate on those texts which, essentially, confirm that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God (their unity), you fail to address any that speak of their differences; for example:

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Your understanding of this? Whose voice declared 'This is my beloved Son'?

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Again, who's voice is that?

You mention John 14:18; look back a couple of verses:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

and later, verse 26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Later yet,

But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Once more I will tell you, and I will call it sufficient: if you still cannot see that these texts clearly declare the Trinity, that of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost none is exactly like the other, you require the eyesalve Jesus spoke of, from Him - I pray that you might find it.

 

[shawn_h76]

John 3
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus was on earth and in Heaven at the same time. That explains the voice, it was Jesus.

john14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

When Jesus prayed, he prayed in the Spirit.

Jesus is the great I AM THAT I AM. He and he alone is God.

John 8
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am

You see Jesus, you see God the father,

John 14
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Jesus never said he was the third part of the trinity. NEVER NEVER NEVER.

Mark 12
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Galatians 3
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Paul didnt say God is three did he. You take one verse in the bible and show me where it says: God is three persons

 

[webboffin]

Trinity belongs in Babylon. So many Biblical contradictions come into play against having the this nasty Trinity that the lie is so obvious if you have an open heart. Jesus never claimed to have God status or dared to. He would never ever claim he was God rather he said he was his servant. The churches have so much to answer for like the Pharisees in Jesus's day for fooling the masses.

 

[JVAC]

Trinity belongs in Babylon. So many Biblical contradictions come into play against having the this nasty Trinity that the lie is so obvious if you have an open heart. Jesus never claimed to have God status or dared to. He would never ever claim he was God rather he said he was his servant. The churches have so much to answer for like the Pharisees in Jesus's day for fooling the masses.

Do you want to explain John 1:1 then?

-James

 

[Magisterium]

Duplicate Post, Sorry...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity



The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not merely an "article of faith" which men are called to "believe." It is not simply a dogma which the Church requires its good members to "accept on faith." Neither is the doctrine of the Holy Trinity the invention of scholars and academicians, the result of intellectual speculation and philosophical thinking.

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity arises from man's deepest experiences with God. It comes from the genuine living knowledge of those who have come to know God in faith.

The paragraphs which follow are intended to show something of what God has revealed of Himself to the saints of the Church. To grasp the words and concepts of the doctrine of the Trinity is one thing; to know the Living Reality of God behind these words and concepts is something else. We must work and pray so that we might pass beyond every word and concept about God and to come to know Him for ourselves in our own living union with Him: "The Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit" (Eph 2: 18-22). The Holy Trinity Revealed

In the Old Testament we find Yahweh, the one Lord and God, acting toward the world through His Word and His Spirit. In the New Testament the "Word becomes flesh" (Jn 1:14). As Jesus of Nazareth, the only-begotten Son of God becomes man. And the Holy Spirit, who is in Jesus making him the Christ, is poured forth from God upon all flesh (Acts 2:17).

One cannot read the Bible nor the history of the Church without being struck by the numerous references to God the Father, the Son (Word) of God and the Holy Spirit. The New Testament record, and the life of the Orthodox Church is absolutely incomprehensible and meaningless without constant affirmation of the existence, interrelation and interaction of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit towards each other and towards man and the world. Wrong Doctrines of the Trinity



The main question for the Church to answer about God is that of the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. According to Orthodox Tradition, there are a number of wrong doctrines which must be rejected.

One wrong doctrine is that the Father alone is God and that the Son and the Holy Spirit are creatures, made "from nothing" like angels, men and the world. The Church answers that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not creatures, but are uncreated and divine with the Father, and they act with the Father in the divine act of creation of all that exists.

Another wrong doctrine is that God in Himself is One God who merely appears in different forms to the world: Now as the Father, then as the Son, and still again as the Holy Spirit. The Church answers once more that the Son and Word is "in the beginning with God"(Jn 1:12) as is the Holy Spirit, and that the Three are eternally distinct. The Son is "of God" and the Spirit is "of God." The Son and the Spirit are not merely aspects of God, without, so to speak, a life and existence of their own. How strange it would be to imagine, for example, that when the Son becomes man and prays to his Father and acts in obedience to Him, it is all an illusion with no reality in fact, a sort of divine presentation played before the world with no reason or truth for it at all!

A third wrong doctrine is that God is one, and that the Son and the Spirit are merely names for relations which God has with Himself. Thus, the Thought and Speech of God is called the Son, while the Life and Action of God is called the Spirit; but in fact -- in genuine actuality -- there are no such "realities in themselves" as the Son of God and the Spirit of God. Both are just metaphors for mere aspects of God. Again, however, in such a doctrine the Son and the Spirit have no existence and no life of their own. They are not real, but are mere illusions.

Still another wrong doctrine is that the Father is one God, the Son is another God, and the Holy Spirit still another God. There cannot be "three gods," says the Church, and certainly not "gods" who are created or made. Still less can there be "three gods" of whom the Father is "higher" and the others "lower." For there to be more than one God, or "degrees of divinity" are both contradictions which cannot be defended, either by divine revelation or by logical thinking.

Thus, the Church teaches that while there is only One God, yet there are Three who are God -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- perfectly united and never divided yet not merged into one with no proper distinction. How then does the Church defend its doctrine that God is both One and yet Three? One God, One Father



First of all, it is the Church's teaching and its deepest experience that there is only one God because there is only one Father.

In the Bible the term "God" with very few exceptions is used primarily as a name for the Father. Thus, the Son is the "Son of God," and the Spirit is the "Spirit of God." The Son is born from the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father -- both in the same timeless and eternal action of the Father's own being.

In this view, the Son and the Spirit are both one with God and in no way separated from Him. Thus, the Divine Unity consists of the Father, with His Son and His Spirit distinct from Himself and yet perfectly united together in Him. One God: One Divine Nature and Being



What the Father is, the Son and the Spirit are also. This is the Church's teaching. The Son, born of the Father, and the Spirit, proceeding from Him, share the divine nature with God, being "of one essence" with Him.

Thus, as the Father is "ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever-existing and eternally the same" (Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom), so the Son and the Spirit are exactly the same. Every attribute of divinity which belongs to God the Father -- life, love, wisdom, truth, blessedness, holiness, power, purity, joy -- belongs equally as well to the Son and the Holy Spirit. The being, nature, essence, existence and life of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are absolutely and identically one and the same. One God: One Divine Action and Will



Since the being of the Holy Trinity is one, whatever the Father wills, the Son and the Holy Spirit will also. What the Father does, the Son and the Holy Spirit do also. There is no will and no action of God the Father which is not at the same time the will and action of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

In Himself, in eternity, as well as towards the world in creation, revelation, incarnation, redemption, sanctification, and glorification -- the will and action of the Trinity are one: from the divine Father, through the divine Son, in the divine Holy Spirit. Every action of God is the action of the Three. No one person of the Trinity acts independently of or in isolation from the others. The action of each is the action of all; the action of all is the action of each. And the divine action is essentially one. One God: One Divine Knowledge and Love



Since each person of the Trinity is one with the others, each knows the same Truth and exercises the same Love. The knowledge of each is the knowledge of all, and the Love of each is the Love of all.

If taken in distinction, each person of the Trinity knows and loves the others with such absolute perfection, knowledge, and love that there is nothing unknown and nothing unloved of each in the others, and all in all. Thus, if the creaturely knowledge of men can unite minds in full unanimity, and if the creaturely love of men can bring the divided together into one heart and one soul and even one flesh, how incomparably more perfect and absolutely uniting must be the oneness when the Knowers and Lovers are eternal and divine. The Three Divine Persons



In Orthodox terminology the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are called three divine persons. Person is defined here simply as the subject of existence and life -- hypostasis in the traditional church language.

As the being, essence or nature of a reality answers the question "what?", the person of a reality answers the question "which one?" or "who?" Thus, when we ask "What is God?" we answer that God is the divine, perfect, eternal, absolute ... and when we ask "Who is God?" we answer that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The saints of the Church have explained this tri-unity of God by using such an example from worldly existence. We see three men. "What are they?" we ask. "They are human beings," we answer. Each is man, possessing the same humanity and the same human nature defined in a certain way: created, temporal, physical, rational, etc. In what they are, the three men are one. But in who they are, they are three, each absolutely unique and distinct from the others. Each man in his own unique way is distinctly a man. One man is not the other, though each man is still human with one and the same human nature and form.

Turning to God, we may ask in the same way: "What is it?" In reply we say that it is God defined as absolute perfection: "ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever-existing, and eternally the same." We then ask, "Who is it?", and we answer that it is the Trinity : Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In who God is, there are three persons who are each absolutely unique and distinct. Each is not the other, though each is still divine with the same divine nature and form. Therefore, while being one in what they are; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are Three in who they are. And because of what and who they are -- namely, uncreated, divine persons -- they are undivided and perfectly united in their timeless, spaceless, sizeless, shapeless super-essential existence, as well as in their one divine life, knowledge, love, goodness, power, will, action, etc.

Thus, according to the Orthodox Tradition, it is the mystery of God that there are Three who are divine; Three who live and act by one and the same divine perfection, yet each according to his own personal distinctness and uniqueness. Thus it is said that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are each divine with the same divinity, yet each in his own divine way. And as the uncreated divinity has three divine subjects, so each divine action has three divine actors; there are three divine aspects to every action of God, yet the action remains one and the same.

We discover, therefore, one God the Father Almighty with His one unique Son (Image and Word) and His one Holy Spirit. There is one living God with His one perfect divine Life, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Life. There is one True God with His one divine Truth, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Truth. There is one wise and loving God with His one Wisdom and Love, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Wisdom and Love. The examples could go on indefinitely: the one divine Father personifying every aspect of His divinity in His one divine Son, who is personally activated by His one divine Spirit. We will see the living implications of the Trinity as we survey the activity of God in his actions toward man and the world. The Holy Trinity in Creation

continued on next post...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

continued from previous post...

God the Father created the world through the Son (Word) in the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is present in all that exists, making it to exist by the power of the Spirit. Thus, according to Orthodox doctrine, the universe itself is a revelation of God in the Word and the Spirit. The Word is in all that exists, causing it to be, and the Spirit is in all that exists as the power of its being and life.

This is most evident in God's special creature, man. Man is made in the image of God, and so he bears within him the unique likeness of God which is eternally and perfectly expressed in the divine Son of God, the Uncreated and Absolute Image of the Father. Thus, man is "logical"; that is, he participates in God's Logos (the Son and Word) and so is free, knowing, loving, reflecting on the creaturely level the very nature of God as the uncreated Son does on the level of divinity.

Man also is "spiritual"; he is the special temple of God's Spirit. The Breath of God's Life is breathed into him in the most special way. Thus, among creatures man alone is empowered to imitate God and to participate in His life. Man has the competence and ability to become a Son of God, mirroring the eternal Son, reflecting the divine nature because he is inspired by the Holy Spirit as is no other creature. Thus, one saint of the Church has said that for man to be a man, he must have the Spirit of God in him. Only then can he fulfill his humanity; only then can he be made a true Son of God, likened to him who is only-begotten.

On the most basic level of creation, therefore, we see the Trinitarian dimensions of the being and action of God: the Word and the Spirit of God enter man and the world to allow them to be and to become that for which the Father has willed their existence. The Holy Trinity in Salvation



With man's failure to fulfill himself in his created uniqueness, God undertakes the special action of salvation. The Father sends forth His Son (Word) and His Spirit in yet another mission. The Word and the Spirit come to the Old Testament saints to make known the Father. The Word, as it were, incarnates himself in the Law (in Hebrew called the "words") which is inspired by the Spirit. The Spirit inspires the prophets to proclaim the Word of God. Thus, the Law and the Prophets are revelations of God in His Word and His Spirit. They are partial revelations, "shadows" (as the New Testament calls them), prefiguring the total revelation of the "fullness of time" and preparing its coming.

When the time is fulfilled and the world is made ready, the Word and the Spirit come once more -- no longer by their mere action and power, but now in their own persons, dwelling personally in the world.

The Word becomes flesh. The only-begotten Son is born as a man, Jesus of Nazareth. And the Spirit who is in him is given to all men to make them also sons of the Father in an eternal development of attaining His perfection by growing forever "to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4:13).

Thus, in the New Testament we have the full epiphany of God, the full manifestation of the Holy Trinity: the Father through the Son in the Spirit to us; and we in the Spirit through the Son to the Father. The Holy Trinity in the Church



The life of the Church is the life of men in the Holy Trinity. In the Church all become one in Christ, all put on the deified humanity of the Son of God. "For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal 3:27). The unity of the Church is the unity of many into one, the one Body of Christ, the one living temple of God, the one people and family of God.

Within the one body there are many individual members. Many "living stones" constitute the living temple. Many brothers and sisters make up the one family of which God is the Father. The unique diversity of each member of the one Body of Christ is guaranteed by the presence of the Holy Spirit. Each unique person is inspired by the Spirit to be a true man, a true son of God in his own distinct way. Thus, as the Body of the Church is one in Christ, the one Holy Spirit gives to each member the possibility of fulfilling himself in God and so of being one with all others in calling God "Father" (See 1 Cor 12).

The Church, then, as the perfect unity of many persons into one fully united organism, is a reflection of the Trinity itself. For the Church, being many unique and distinct persons, is called to be one mind, one heart, one soul and one body in the one Truth and Love of God Himself. The calling of the Church to be one in all things is the prototype of the vocation of all mankind which was originally created by God as many persons in one nature, ultimately destined by God for ever-more-perfect growth in free unity of Truth and Love, in the life of God's Kingdom. The Holy Trinity in the Sacraments



The sacraments of the Church portray the Trinitarian character of the life of God and man. Each person is baptized by the Holy Spirit into the one humanity of Christ. Being baptized, each person is given the "seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit" of God in chrismation to be a "christ", i.e. an anointed son of God to live the life of Christ.

In marriage the unity of two into one makes the new unity a reflection of the unity of the Trinity, and the unity of Christ and the Church. For the family of many persons united in one truth and love is indeed the created manifestation of the one family of God's Kingdom, and of God Himself, the Blessed Trinity.

In penance once more we renew our new life as sons of the Father through the grace of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, forgiven and reunited into the unity of God in His Church.

In holy unction the Spirit anoints the sufferer to suffer and die in Christ and so to be healed and made alive with the Father for eternity.

The priesthood itself, the ministry of the Church, is nothing other than the concrete manifestation in the Church of the presence of Christ by the same Holy Spirit who makes accessible to all men the action of the Father and the way to everlasting communion in and with Him.

Finally, the "mystery of mysteries," the Holy Eucharist, is the actual experience of all Christian people led to communion with God the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit through Christ the Son who is present in the Word of the Gospel and in the Passover Meal of His Body and Blood eaten in remembrance of Him. The very movement of the Divine Liturgy -- towards the Father through Christ the Word and the Lamb, in the power of the Holy Spirit -- is the living sacramental symbol of our eternal movement in and toward God, the Blessed Trinity.



Even Christian prayer is the revelation of the Trinity, accomplished within the third person of the Godhead. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, men can call God "our Father" only because of the Son who has taught them and enabled them to do so. Thus, the true prayer of Christians is not the calling out of our souls in earthly isolation to a far-away God. It is the prayer in us of the divine Son of God made to His Father, accomplished in us by the Holy Spirit who himself is also divine.

For we have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba! Father! The Spirit itself bears witness that we are children of God ... for we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit itself intercedes for us ...

(Rom 8:15-16, 26)
​

The Holy Trinity in Christian Life





The new commandment of Christian life is "to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mt 5:48). It is to love as Christ himself has loved. "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you" (Jn 15:12). Men cannot live the Christian life of divine love in imitation of God's perfection without the grace of the Holy Spirit. With the power of God, however, what is impossible to men becomes possible. "For with God all things are possible." (Mk 10:27)

The Christian life is the life of God accomplished in men by the Spirit of Christ. Men can live as Christ has lived, doing the things that he did and becoming sons of God in Him by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus, once more, the Christian life is a Trinitarian life.

By the Holy Spirit given by God through Christ, men can share the life, the love, the truth, the freedom, the goodness, the holiness, the wisdom, the knowledge of God Himself. It is this conviction and experience which has caused the development in the Orthodox Church of the affirmation of the fact that the essence of Christianity is "the acquisition of the Holy Spirit" and the "deification" of man by the grace of God, the so-called theosis.

The saints of the Church are unanimous in their claim that Christian life is the participation in the life of the Blessed Trinity in the most genuine and realistic way. It is the life of men becoming divine. In the smallest aspects of everyday life Christians are called to live the life of God the Father, which is communicated to them by Christ, the Son of God, and made possible for them by the Holy Spirit who lives and acts within them. The Holy Trinity in Eternal Life



At the end of the ages Christ will come in the glory of God the Father, He will make the Father known throughout all creation. The Holy Spirit will fill all things and enable all to be in union with God through Christ for eternity. Again we have the presence and action of the Holy Trinity.



What we know and experience now in the world as members of the Church will be manifested in power in the life of the kingdom to come. The essence of life everlasting is the life of the Holy Trinity, the same eternal life given to us already in the mystery of faith.

And I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb (Christ) are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun ... for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb (Christ) is the light thereof...


And the throne of God and the Lamb (Christ) shall be in it, and his servants shall see him ... and they shall see his face... And the Spirit and the Bride (the Church) say Come!
(Rev 21:22; 22:3, 17)


​

In the eternal life of the Kingdom of God, the Holy Trinity will fill all creation: the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. Every man enlightened by Christ in the Spirit will know the invisible Father. "And this is eternal life, that they may know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" (Jn 17:3). Such knowledge is possible only by the indwelling of the Spirit of God, "the fullness of Him who fills all in all" (Eph 1:23; 2:22).

Come O Ye People! Let us adore the Three-Personal Godhead, the Son in the Father with the Holy Spirit.


For before all time the Father gave birth to the Son, co-eternal and co-enthroned with Himself.

And the Holy Spirit was in the Father, glorified with the Son.

Adoring One Power, One Essence, One Divinity, let us cry:

O Holy God who made all things by the Son through the cooperation of the Holy Spirit!

O Holy Mighty through whom we know the Father and through whom the Holy Spirit comes into the world!

O Holy Immortal, the Spirit, the Comforter, who proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son! O Most Holy Trinity! Glory to Thee!
(The Vespers of Pentecost)

From: http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html

Forgive me...
​

 

[Magisterium]

Forgive me...

​

You're askin' alot after that post!

JK

 

[Magisterium]

Before one can enter into a discussion of the trinity, we must understand just what the doctrine is. It is NOT a definition. A definition imposes limits upon something. God is eternal and infinite and therefore undefineable. It is however, a description. In this manner, it describes in human terms that which God has chosen to reveal to mankind about Himself in order that we might love him more completely. The fact is, you can't Love what you don't know. For this reason, the ultimate act of love is self revelation. This is precisely what God has done for mankind through His Son and His Church. In most discussions, the Father is not generally a point of contention so I will not spend much time developing the concept of the Father. Instead, I will delineate the Father's characteristics through a description of the Son and Holy Spirit


The Son:
Within the human being, there exist thoughts (or words) in the mind. These thoughts are distinct from the mind, but not separate from it. What's more, these thoughts are generated by the mind in relation to something which exists. By course of this generation, the thought (or word) is a sort of child of the mind in which it resides.

Within the mind of God, exists all that is. By virtue of the perfection of God's Mind, His mere thoughts hold real tangible existence. This is why in the book of Genesis it is said that God "speaks" the world into existence.

That said, Jesus is God's understanding (or mental image) of Himself. As I stated before, God's perfect mind possesses a natural power of tangible generation. This means that within Jesus, is contained all that God knows about Himself (which is also perfect and therefore encompasses all that is).

This is why the evangelist (St John) calls Jesus not only the Son of God, but also the Word of God. He is explaining that he is the very perfect Image of God's being Made tangible (incarnate). What's more, Jesus is necessarilly eternal because God has always known Himself. This is why the evangelist says in Jn 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

The Holy Spirit:
I stated previously that God's perfect intellect possesses the power of tangible creation. And so God's perfect and complete knowledge of himself is the person of Jesus Christ.

However, God's Intellect is not the only part of Him cabable of generation. God's Love, by virtue of it's perfection also possesses that same power of generation.

However, to backtrack a little, when an object is known, an image of that object resides in the mind of the knower. The more complete the understanding is, the more like the object that mental image is. That is to say, the perfection of knowledge is commensurate with it's fidelity to the object known.

Within God of course, is perfect knowledge and therefore a perfected image of himself (Whole and entire). However, in the act of loving, things are a little different. In order for something to be actually loved, it must also reside in the lover just as the object known must reside in the knower as a word.

However, unlike knowledge, love does not reach it's perfection by fidelity to the the object loved, but by closeness or proximity to it. That is to say, when something is loved, the lover desires a sort of closeness to the object loved. There is a desire for a oneness or incorporation so to speak.

That said, God's love for Himself (or his Word) is perfected in that He and Hiimself are indeed one. There is no separation and therefore, this love of Father to Son (or Word) is returned perfectly from the Word (or Son) and Love is brought to perfecton. This perfection of love is said to "spirate" (which is a natural generation) the Holy Spirit. Like the Son being the God's perfect image of Himself, So too, The Holy Spirit is The perfect Love of the Father and the Son.

Of course the Father and Son have always loved eachother perfectly therefore, the Holy Spirit also shares in the divine eternal being.



In conclusion, these descriptions do not seek to remove the mysterious nature of God's being. Quite the contrary, they deepen the mystery allowing us to peer even deeper into the infinite majesty of God's perfect being.

 

[rainbowprism]

(sigh) nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition

 

[KennySe]

(sigh) nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition

especially in 21st century USA.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Let us imagine a two dimensional world populated by intellegent squares. These squares are each distinct persons who act and will and live. Lets us then imagine a three dimensional cube, which has 6 squares yet is one cube. This cube enters into the world of the squares and acts in the world of the squares. Afterward, the squares try to explain to each other what this cube is like, but being two dimensional, they cannot understand the cube. It is impossible, says one square, for there to be a cube made up of 6 squares, yet it is one cube. That means this cube is 6 beings, not one. Yet that is what the cube is, six squares existing as one cube. That is exactly what we have with the mystery of the Holy Trinity. One Being who exists as 3 Persons, 3 centers of thought and activity. We who are each of us one person, one being, cannot understand 3 Persons being one Being. So we have our Oneness friends saying "If you believe that there are three Persons, each being God, that makes three Gods". Well, if that were so, then the Trinitarinas would be the first to reject that idea. But that is NOT what Trinitarianism teaches or believes. Yet if you take all that Scripture teaches and study its teachings, you find passage that clearly say that there is one God. Other passages clearly declare that Jesus is God. Others that the Father is God. Others that the Holy Spirit is God. You also find passages that teach some kind of distinction between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Others teach the Oneness of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is what the doctrine of the Holy Trinity teaches. One God, three distinct Persons. It is a Holy Mystery and all we can do is stick to the historic teaching of the Church and worship the Triune God. By the way, the square and cube analogy I borrow from C. S. Lewis.

 

[webboffin]

cajunhillbilly that does not explain that the trinity is true. And no we don't have to stick to the historic teachings of the church! We should stick to the teachings of the Bible that God PROVIDED to us, that is what it is there for. The church is so full of traditions of men - it has forgotten Bible truths! But cunning Satan has had a long time to work on the churches. The churches are puppets to the State hence most religious leaders rub shoulders with important politicians and people of high office. Church leaders are human beings and corruptable like the pharisees of Jesus's day. Biblical truth about God has been ripped out of true worship instead he has become 3 persons God - DETESTABLE!!!. Jesus has been slandered to being a God when he never claimed the Most High status. Jesus always said he was his Father's humble servant whether in heaven or on the Earth. So many millions are fooled and blindly cling to the churches own desired teachings. The Churches are the harlot Revelation talks about. False religion of Christianity that distort God's true status. The Trinity is a lie and an insult to Jesus and God.