The trinity - could somebody explain this to me?

[challenger]

Do Christians actually believe that God is physically divided into Father, Son and Holy ghost/spirit? Or is it a metaphor for the actions of God according to Christianity? If I'm honest, I'm stumped by this one.

 

[TheMainException]

I believe....oooh...tough one...well...uh, yikes...I think that he is actually divided up into those three parts...but not in a way that we can understand, since he actually is only one God...so...I thank you for this challenge...Challenger...the name suites you well.

 

[HumbleBee]

The Trinity is 3 expressions of the Personhood of God...

God the Father...as Creator
God the Son...Jesus (God Incarnate) as Saviour
God the Holy Spirit...as indwelling Counselor

Read on

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/proper/joy/joy-03.htm

 

[Sinai]

Although the Bible clearly teaches that there is one—and only one—God, he has primarily revealed himself as bearing three relationships to man: what Christians generally refer to as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or simply as the “trinity” (though that term does not appear in the Bible). Could God appear in some other form or reveal himself in some other manner? Of course: God can do whatever he chooses to do; he is not limited except as he chooses to limit himself. The Bible also records instances, for example, when God appeared as whirlwinds, a burning bush, a cloud of glory, and a still small voice. But the primary revelations have been as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



The verses that have helped me the most are Deuteronomy 6:4 and Exodus 3:14-15.



Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.



This verse, which constitutes the beginning of the Jewish Shema or confession of faith made up of Deut 6:4-9 and 11:13-21 and Num 15:37-41, emphasizes that there is one—and only one—God. It denies both polytheism (there are many gods) and dualism (there are good and evil principles of equal power contending for mastery in the universe).



Exodus 3: 13-15: Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name? Then what shall I tell them?”

14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

15God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.”

I think that the name God gives himself in verse 14 gives us an especially valuable and important window of insight regarding several things about God: First, God is. He exists. Always has; always will. We can make all sorts of theories that argue that God is dead or that he doesn’t exist—but all our arguments do not change the simple fact that there is a God.


Second, God is. God is yesterday; God is today; God is forever. It’s the eternal present tense. God is not affected by the dimensions that limit us. The dimensions (width, height, depth, time, etc.) are physical properties of the universe in which we live. God created that universe and is not limited by the constraints that limit us. Before time was, God is.


Third, God is both unchanging and eternal. What God promised to the patriarchs hundreds of years earlier would be fulfilled through Moses.


And fourth, the phrase “I AM WHO I AM” can also be translated “I AM THAT I AM, I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE, or I AM WHO I CHOOSE TO BE. Again, God is without limits. He can be who he chooses to be, and he can appear in any form he chooses. As I mentioned earlier, God has primarily revealed himself as bearing three relationships to man: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


However he chooses to reveal himself to us, he is still the same God--the strong, sovereign, eternal and everlasting God without limits (except as he chooses to limit himself) whom we serve. The amazing thing is not that he is powerful enough to create this universe, but rather that he loves us enough to make a way for us to have everlasting fellowship with him.....

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I believe....oooh...tough one...well...uh, yikes...I think that he is actually divided up into those three parts...but not in a way that we can understand, since he actually is only one God...so...I thank you for this challenge...Challenger...the name suites you well.

Ouch... dont go teaching God devided!

This is a rather in depth subject. With lots of "WRONG TEACHINGS" surrounding it.
I would like to point you to a link that goes over it very well... it's a little lengthy but it's very good...

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html#01

Forgive me....

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Trinity is 3 expressions of the Personhood of God...

God the Father...as Creator
God the Son...Jesus (God Incarnate) as Saviour
God the Holy Spirit...as indwelling Counselor

Read on

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/proper/joy/joy-03.htm

Actually to be "very correct" we should express it as being "3 persons" of one essense. According to Orthodox "Holy Tradition". The early Christian councils hashed all this out years ago.....

Forgive me....

 

[Rafael]

Do Christians actually believe that God is physically divided into Father, Son and Holy ghost/spirit? Or is it a metaphor for the actions of God according to Christianity? If I'm honest, I'm stumped by this one.

God is not limited to the frame or dimensions of man. He transcends the image of man and it is we, not Him that are the image. What one body or tongue can express and tell us all that God is?
From the begining of scripture, God refers to Himself as plural, as in Gen. 1:26 - "Let us make man in our image." Or Gen 11:7 - "let us go down, and there confound their language."

It has been to man's benefit that God is not bound to the weak and mortal frame of man, because being the three in one was how Jesus was able to come as God in the flesh, die for our sins, and then be raised to New life as the first of many brethren by the Father. For God to be three person is wonderful and only shows us more of what is already awesome creative power. We even live and breathe, having our being inside of God, so no wonder He sees and knows all we have done or ever will do, standing outside of time and seeing beginning to end at the same moment. How does He do this? Well how does He make or do anything that we experience as life..?.. we just are gifted to experience all that He is and benefit from what He has given. We struggle to know the dimensions and details of life even not having the simple abilities to make even one cell of life, so hopw can we question and then limit God's ability to be three persons? It's okay to question, but there is no reson for us to doubt His ability, just by what we know and see around us as life and Creation.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Ac 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Speaking of Jesus:

Col.2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

PS.
Gen.7:4 doesn't really contradict John 3:16 when taken into context of what time these were spoken. Before Jesus came, God's dispensation of power was not graceful towards His enemies. The time for another dispension is coming when grace through Jesus will be done and the enemies of God, not accepting His grace, will be judged again. Those of the past look forward to the cross for grace as we look back to it, as time (past and future) is no issue in eternity where there is only timeless "now".

 

[St. Worm2]

Do Christians actually believe that God is physically divided into Father, Son and Holy ghost/spirit? Or is it a metaphor for the actions of God according to Christianity? If I'm honest, I'm stumped by this one.

Hi Challenger, you have asked for an explanation of not only one of the key doctrines of Christianity, but, also, perhaps its most difficult to understand.

The Old Testament and New Testament both insist that there is only ONE God/Creator, and that He ALONE is to be worshipped. But the New Testament also speaks of this one God as three personal 'agents' who work in harmony as a team to bring about salvation.

These three personal agents (or subsistences) are co-equal and co-eternal, each one partaking of the full Divine essence. One God/One Essence, existing as three persons. Confusing, isn't it!! :o

**(It is also important to mention that the Trinity is NOT 3 different Gods (in a cluster or something like that), nor is it one God manifesting Himself in three 'roles' or "modes". The Trinity, again, is One God/One Essence, undivided, eternally existing in three distinct persons.)

A couple of things that might help: First, the word, "Trinity" (which comes from the Latin word trinitas, meaning "threeness"), was chosen to safeguard this mystery, not explain it ... as that is clearly beyond us. So while we hold this mystery to be true, we also admit that we are at a loss to truly/fully explain it. So there you have the answer to your original question. We can't really give you one. We can't truly explain the Trinity of God to you, we can only show you that it does, indeed, exist.

Secondly, a couple of more pedestrian explanations that have helped me get a little better grasp of this doctrine are the 'Steam, Water, Ice' explanation, and the 'Candlelight' explanation. The first seeks to show that one essence, water, can exist in three forms, as a liquid, as a solid, and/or as a gas. The problem with this example is that it really shows something that the Trinity is not, one substance, manifesting itself in three ways or modes. Still, I think it is a good help none the less.

The second, which I prefer, tries to explain the Trinity by having one imagine three lit candles on a mantelpiece. Here there are three distinct candles that produce, in essence, one thing, "light" (or candlelight) ... not light(s) or candlelight(s).

Well, neither example really does the trick, as both fall short in one way or another, but they did help me a bit ... and I certainly hope the same will be true for you. Again, the Trinity is not something that the rational mind can completely grasp, it is simply something that we hold to be true based on the teachings presented to us by the Bible (both OT and NT).

Yours and His,
David

 

[challenger]

Yeah I think I get it...I think anyway

Are you guys trying to say that the trinity represents aspects of how God reveals himself to man? Or have I missed the point?

 

[klewlis]

Yeah I think I get it...I think anyway

Are you guys trying to say that the trinity represents aspects of how God reveals himself to man? Or have I missed the point?

no.... a couple of the posts sounded that way so I can see where you got that.

The trinity is *actually* three separate persons, but in one essence and therefore one God.

It is not simply one God revealing himself in three ways (that is called "modalism" and is not correct Christian theology).

It is really hard to understand how something can be both three people and one essence, but that is because we don't see anything like that in our natural world, so we have a hard time comparing it to anything. The closest example we have in nature is marriage, where a man and women become "one flesh". They become actually one flesh through intercourse, and they also become one in purpose and spirit. Even that is only a shadow of the nature of the Trinity.

But let's build on it a little. Each parent relates to the children differently. The mother tends to be the nurterer and caretaker, the gentle, loving one. The Father tends to be the leader and breadwinner*. But they act together as a unit. Now try to imagine that these parents are not just in agreement with each other, but that they are so intertwined and a part of each other that they are inseparable and indivisible--but they are still two parents. Now in the Trinity we have three persons instead of just two. Each one relates to us a little differently and serves a different function, but all three are completely one. Does that make a bit of sense?


*yes I realize that our culture hates these sorts of definitions. I am not trying to stereotype but the simple fact of the matter is that men and women are built differently, and *most* (not all) people do follow their own gender roles, to varying degrees.

 

[helmikaarina]

I think you've got the point. God is mystery, and we can know him only as much as he reveals himself to us - which is quite a little I think - God is beoynd our reasoning, thoughts, words... If God could be totally explained and understood he would be only god, too little, at least to me.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No matter how we try, our little minds find it hard to make 1+1+1=1
But that is what God has revealed....
It may be easier to say what it is NOT, rather than to say what it is....

It is not "MODES" of God. God is not modular.
It is not God devided....

Rather:
From (The Faith, by Clark Carlton, chapter 2)

1) There is one God because ther is one Father, Who is the source and principle of the Godhead. The Father begets the Son of God, and the Spirit is the Spirit of God.

2) There is one and only one God. The multiplicity of persons in the Godhead in no way divides the divine unity or creates three Gods.

3) There are three co-eternal and co-equal persons in the Godhead. The absolute oneness of God in no way diminishes their personal distinctiveness and reality. In other words, the Father, Son, and Spirit are real persons, and not merely roles that the one God plays at different times.

4) In begetting the Son and breathing forth the Spirit, the Father bestows upon them the fullness of his divine being. Thus, the Father, Son, and Spirit each possess the same divine nature or essence. To describe this, the Church uses the word consubstantial - meaning of the same substance or nature.

5) Each person of the Godhead possesses the entirety if the divine nature. God is not divided into three parts, because the divine nature is one and indivisible. Because the Son and the Spirit possess the fullness of the divine nature, they are no less God than the Father, even though they derive their being from Him. Each person of the Godhead is therefore, catholic (cath-olic, not Cath-o-lic) - meaning whole and complete.

6) Each person of the Godhead exists by the total gift of Himself to the other persons in an unbroken and perfect communion of love. The Father is the originator of this "cycle," bestowing the fullness of His being on His Son and His Spirit. They return this love to the Father and exchange it with one another, forming an unbreakable union of love. In this way, each of the persons is said to exist in the others. It is impossible to conceive of one perosn without thinking of the other two persons. The Church uses the word coinherence ( in Greek, perichoresis) to describe this fact.

7) This perfect communion of love is eternal. There was never a time when the Father did not beget His Son and breathe forth His Spirit. In fact, the concept of time is inapplicable to God, because it is a created phenomenon. The Holy Trinity is eternal, beyond all of our created notions of time and space. To say, then, that God begets His Son and breathes forth His Spirit does not imply temporal succession or change in God, Who is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

Three unique, co-eternal, co-equal divine persons glorified in one simple and undivided Godhead.

Forgive me....

P.S. You may also find that studying the "councils" would be helpful.
You can find a lot here.... http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/index.html#symbol

 

[challenger]

Seems like there's a few different ways of looking at it. Not surprising as its pretty complex, but I think I understand it.

 

[PRMan]

Here's one very simple way that gets people a little closer to understanding:

challenger, you have

* a body
* a mind
* a spirit

Which is actually you? A homicide detective would say your body is you. Someone reading your poetry 100 years after your death might say your mind was you. A pastor might say your spirit is really you.

The truth is, they are all you.

We were made in God's image.

God also has:

* a body (Jesus Christ/The Angel of the Lord)
* a mind (God the Father, who "knows" all the times and dates)
* a spirit (The Holy Spirit or The Spirit of God)

Now I know that, like all attempts to explain it, it's certainly still lacking a little bit. But this explanation helped me a great deal.

 

[Grace_of_God]

The Holy Trinity is one of the most mysterious concepts in the Universe. We can not begin to comprehend exactly how everything works, but we can understand things to the best of our ability though sincere studying of the Bible. Yes, God is a trinity--three persons of one essence.

Matthew 28:19--Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Also a reading of John 1 would show that there is a Trinity as well.

A clear reading of the Bible will show that while God is One, He consists of 3 distinct persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

 

[Reformationist]

Do Christians actually believe that God is physically divided into Father, Son and Holy ghost/spirit? Or is it a metaphor for the actions of God according to Christianity? If I'm honest, I'm stumped by this one.

The trinity is not a division of one God into three. The trinity is the Christian doctrine of three co-eternal and co-equal centers of self awareness. Let me, if I may, quote from a theological explanation in my Bible:

The Old Testament constantly insists that there is only one God, the self-revealed Creator who must be worshiped and loved exclusively (Deut. 6:4,5; Is. 44:6-45:25). The New Testament agrees (Mark 12:29,30; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim 2:5), but speaks of three personal agents, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, working together to bring about salvation (Rom. 8; Eph. 1:3-14; 2 Thess. 2:13,14; 1 Pet. 1:2). The historic formulation of the Trinity (from the Latin word trinitas, meaning "threeness") is not an attempt to explain it; that would be beyond us. It does provide a boundary and safeguard for our thoughts about this mystery, which confronts us with perhaps the most difficult thought that the human mind can know. It is not easy; but it is true.

The doctrine springs from the historical facts of redemption recorded and explained in the New Testament. Jesus prayed to His Father and taught His disciples to do the same. Yet He convinced them that He was personally divine. Belief in His divinity and in the rightness of offering Him worship and prayer is basic to New Testament faith (John 20:28-31, cf. 1:1-18; Acts 7:59; Rom. 9:5: 10:9-13; 2 Cor. 12:7-9; Phil. 2:5,6; Col. 1:15-17; 2:9; Heb. 1:1-12; 1 Pet. 3:15). Jesus promised to send "another Helper" or "Paraclete" (from the Greek) to carry on His work as the first Helper (John 14:16,17). A "Paraclete" is an advocate, helper, ally, and supporter (John 14:26; 15:26,27; 16:7-15). The promised Helper was the Holy Spirit, who came at Pentecost to fulfill His ministry. From the start He was recognized as the third divine Person: to lie to Him, said Peter not long after Pentecost, is to lie to God (Acts 5:3,4).

Christ prescribed baptism "in the name (singular: one God, one name) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" - three Persons who are the one God to whom Christians commit themselves (Matt. 28:19). So we meet the three Persons in the account of Jesus' own baptism: the Father acknowledged the Son, and the Spirit showed His presence in the Son's life and ministry (Mark 1:9-11). The blessings of 2 Cor. 13:14 is trinitarian, as is the prayer for grace and peace from the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ in Rev. 1:4,5. John includes the Spirit between the Father and the Son only because he teaches that the Spirit is divine in the very same sense as are the Father and the Son. These are some of the more striking examples of trinitarian teaching in the New Testament. Though the technical language of later theology is not found there, trinitarian faith and thinking are present in all its pages. In this sense the Trinity is a biblical doctrine.

Basically the doctrine is that the unity of the one God is complex. The three personal "subsistences" (as they are called) are coequal and coeternal centers of self-awareness, each being "I" in relation to two who are You," and each having the full divine essence of God, the specifiic existence that belongs to God alone. God is not on person who plays three separate roles; this is the error called "modalism." Nor are there three gods who only seem to be one because they always act together; this is "tritheism." The theologian B. B. Warfield put it simply: "When we have said these three things, then - that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person - we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness." This summarizes what was revealed through the words and works of Jesus, and is the reality underlying the salvation of the New Testament.

Practically speaking, the doctrine of the Trinity requires us to give equal honor to each of the three Persons in the unity of the one God. Moreover, knowing the doctrine establishes personal faith no less than it enriches a healthy sense of unity with other Christians.

Hope that helps.

God bless

 

[MightyManofGod]

I must admit, I have not read all of the other posts on this simple, yet complex question. Quite honestly because its late and they all seem rather long. I would however, if you will excuse my ignorance like to add my wisdom to this post.

3, yet 1. Interesting isn't it? In a nut shell, you will never understand how this is so, the human brain is just unable to figure it out! Just like the idea of eternaty. After all is said and done, God is God, he is all powerful! To God being 3 different things is just how it is, nothing confusing. Watch what you read into this, MANY wrong teachings. Simply put. God is the father, Jesus his son, and the Holy Spirit is the councilor
Jesus sent as a gift. All three are different PEOPLE, the Holy Spirit is a person, he has everything a person would have, emotions etc etc... Anyways, the bible always defines the 3 as different, with different roles, don't try to think of it as God splitting him self up, or God in different forms, God is God, Jesus is his Son and the Holy Spirit the councilor left to help us down here.

Ack, I wrote loads.. sorry people, after not reading your posts I feel rather rude.

 

[Asar'el]

I do love the way the confession of faith I subscribe to puts it:

I. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

God's word is for our instruction; but we must listen to what it declares, as we must listen to a perfect teacher. The above sumarizes the teaching of the Trinity; beyond what the Scripture declares is dangerous to stray by assumption.

 

[Ryft]

Seems like there's a few different ways of looking at it. Not surprising as its pretty complex, but I think I understand it.

Confusion arises when one thinks of God as a person. God is not a person; God is three persons. It is difficult to imagine how THREE persons can be ONE God only when one has it in mind that God is a person.

 

[Reformationist]

Confusion arises when one thinks of God as a person. God is not a person; God is three persons. It is difficult to imagine how THREE persons can be ONE God only when one has it in mind that God is a person.

That's absolutely true. Though God is personal He is not a person.

God bless