The trials of Job

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So god's "helpful instruction" to Job was to kill his wife and family, destroy his property and livelihood thus making Job a better person .

Have you not read anything thus far? For what reason did you post this topic on a Christian Apologetics section? Entertainment value? This is actually turning into a good bible discussion between Christians. Perhaps you will actually learn something if you actually decide that you want to have your questions answered.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I am certainly not looking for wisdom and truth from what I read in the bible.

So exactly why are you reading the Bible?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

If I was a housebuilder and I built a house that was not structurally sound and it collapsed, I could hardly blame the house for falling down. The blame would be all mine.

The problem with your analogy is that you did not build the house with free will to choose to be structurally sound or not. The ability to choose is good. God gave us enough rope to hang ourselves or pull us out of a hole. So if we choose to hang ourselves, who is to blame?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I'm sorry, but I don't see any wisdom, poetic or otherwise, in the story, none at all. What wisdom do you take from the story?

I am certainly not looking for wisdom and truth from what I read in the bible.

Do you not see your problem here?

 

[Par5]

So the basic wisdom you learned is that bad things happen. Well, there's a surprise, I never would have guessed. Good things and bad things happen to good people and to bad people. Things happen, and it's only superstitious people who believe the bad things are some form of punishment, and maybe they believe the good things that happen are some kind of reward.
I don't see why it took a story detailing the terrible orchestrated suffering of an individual to make the point that bad things happen. Anyone with even a modicum of wit knows that bad things happen.
Relevant to what we are discussing, Two days ago I attended the funeral of a dear friend who died in hospital several weeks after receiving terrible multiple injuries in a car crash caused by an idiot driver who overtook on a bend and ploughed head-on into her car. She was a lovely, kind and gentle person whose life was tragically cut short leaving her husband and children to deal with their loss. The idiot responsible for her death walked away from the crash with not so much as a scratch.
The bad thing, in this case, was as bad as it gets, but there was no thought that it was some kind of punishment, although I will attend the court to witness the idiot driver receive the punishment he so richly deserves.

 

[bling]

So god's "helpful instruction" to Job was to kill his wife and family, destroy his property and livelihood thus making Job a better person. It was all for his own good. Really? Just at the moment, I can't think of anyone who would feel a better person after being put through such a horrific ordeal, and I would have thought that having a debate with the perpetrator of that barbarity would have been the last thing on the victim's mind. Perhaps it was Job's mind that was messed up, because anyone who after such an experience can say, "Yes, you were right I was wrong, thanks for putting me straight" has got to be more than a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
I don't understand the way Christians treat the murder of children so lightly. "Oh, don't worry, they are going to heaven".
I agree with you that all those who went to Job learned something, that something being that this god was only doing what it always did in the past, and would continue to do so in the future, namely kill people or order people to be killed.

That is not what I said.
Sometimes you have to be humbled by God, so of your own free will be willing to correctly accept God's truth in your inter being.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE=
"jason_delisle, ]Well, color me not surprised with your view. The basic wisdom we learn is that bad things happen. Just because you are having a bad day, it doesn't mean that you are being punished for something wrong or vice versa. The poetry is literally lost in translation, you will not be able to see the poetic form unless you look at the original Hebrew and see how the writings are structured. The first letter of each sentence follows the previous sentence in alphabetical order.
[/QUOTE
========================
I haven't checked to verify, but either The Message translation might carry the harmony of the poetry better than some others, or another translation , possibly Voice? I think one is called,
because yes, in the original, both the meaning and the poetry is sovereignly majestic and simple and clear and wonderful !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So the basic wisdom you learned is that bad things happen. Well, there's a surprise, I never would have guessed.

No worries (except for eternal life, forgiveness, salvation, health, peace, joy and righteousness all forsaken and unavailable due to unbelief........ oh, so may be great number of huge worries ! ? ) ,

we are happy to oblige and tell of basic wisdom as YHVH Permits.

 

[Par5]

That is not what I said.
Sometimes you have to be humbled by God, so of your own free will be willing to correctly accept God's truth in your inter being.

Well if that is not what you said, what is the killing of Job's family and the destruction of his property and livelihood all about?

 

[bling]

Well if that is not what you said, what is the killing of Job's family and the destruction of his property and livelihood all about?

First off death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.
"Property" can easily be replaced.
Job has a deep spiritual problem which Job and others would have a hard time seeing or realizing unless, God allows Job to go through serve disciplining to the point the problem of belittling God comes out.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Job has a deep spiritual problem which Job and others would have a hard time seeing or realizing unless, God allows Job to go through serve disciplining to the point the problem of belittling God comes out.

WOULD THAT we all had such a (so-called) problem as Job !!!

WHO TODAY does Yahweh call RIGHTEOUS ! ? and can test to such an extent ?

Yahweh did not say , at the start to hasatan "Job has a problem, but other than that he is righteous, more righteous than any man on earth"
No, Yahweh did not say that.
He did not even say "Job has a problem" nor this is the plan to take care of it.

 

[bling]

WOULD THAT we all had such a (so-called) problem as Job !!!

WHO TODAY does Yahweh call RIGHTEOUS ! ? and can test to such an extent ?

Yahweh did not say , at the start to hasatan "Job has a problem, but other than that he is righteous, more righteous than any man on earth"
No, Yahweh did not say that.
He did not even say "Job has a problem" nor this is the plan to take care of it.

Look at what Job finally wound up saying: Job 31:

35

(“Oh, that I had someone to hear me!

I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me;

let my accuser put his indictment in writing.

36

Surely I would wear it on my shoulder,

I would put it on like a crown.

37

I would give him an account of my every step;

I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

38

“if my land cries out against me

and all its furrows are wet with tears,

39

if I have devoured its yield without payment

or broken the spirit of its tenants,

40

then let briers come up instead of wheat

and stinkweed instead of barley.”


Job is confronting God asking to be heard by God and acting like God is not hearing him.

Job wants to give an account to God (this is asking God to come down to him [like God is at fault and Job can tell God something]).

It is not that Job is doing anything wrong, but Job does feel in the back of his mind; God could and did something wrong to him by mistake [suggest God could make a mistake].

Job will not say any more until after God has given Job a tong lashing.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yet Yahweh called Job most Righteous at the beginning, and the end.
He didn't say at the beginning Job had a problem.

People today are not called Righteous by Yahweh , and they have a lot of problems. Much much much much worse than Job, according to , not man's word, nor their own word, but Yahweh's Word.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think your statement is good. The only thing I would like to add is that the main theme of the book is not necessarily "why God does things". God never answer's Job's question as to the reason for his suffering. This piece of information is left out for a reason. Because that is not the point of the story.

The main theme of the story is the motive of Job's righteousness not the motive of God's actions. It is a lesson of "disinterested faith". Meaning, having a faith that remains regardless of promise of reward or threats of punishment. Are you able to continue in your faith even when you have no reason left other than simply because God is God and you are His creation?

Ok, forgive my misstatement of the point of the book. Why God does things is not stated, but it is most definitely implied that God does things for his own reasons, as opposed to doing them for our reasons or according to our understanding.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Look at what Job finally wound up saying: Job 31:

35

(“Oh, that I had someone to hear me!

I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me;

let my accuser put his indictment in writing.

36

Surely I would wear it on my shoulder,

I would put it on like a crown.

37

I would give him an account of my every step;

I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

38

“if my land cries out against me

and all its furrows are wet with tears,

39

if I have devoured its yield without payment

or broken the spirit of its tenants,

40

then let briers come up instead of wheat

and stinkweed instead of barley.”


Job is confronting God asking to be heard by God and acting like God is not hearing him.

Job wants to give an account to God (this is asking God to come down to him [like God is at fault and Job can tell God something]).

It is not that Job is doing anything wrong, but Job does feel in the back of his mind; God could and did something wrong to him by mistake [suggest God could make a mistake].

Job will not say any more until after God has given Job a tong lashing.

Where do you get the concept that Job thought God did something by mistake? I must have missed something, or is that your extrapolation?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Ok, forgive my misstatement of the point of the book. Why God does things is not stated, but it is most definitely implied that God does things for his own reasons, as opposed to doing them for our reasons or according to our understanding.

It is possibly worthy of note,
that contrary to common thoughts today, that God owes it to anybody, anyone at all, to explain His actions, or His Instructions,
is not ever an excuse to sin, to disobey Him, or to do anything except obey Him IMMEDIATELY when He Tells Someone/Anyone what to DO.
(or agree IMMEDIATELY, without doubt, without UNBELIEF).

Rarely did Yahweh tell WHY to His People , and there is no one who can require it before obeying Him.

Note how evil people will tell a private to shoot / bomb/ kill others when ordered to do so, without questioning the mere human officer giving the orders !!!!!!!!!!!!
Yet people think they have a right to know WHY God does something.
They have no such right. (being clay pots in the hands of the Potter)

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is possibly worthy of note,
that contrary to common thoughts today, that God owes it to anybody, anyone at all, to explain His actions, or His Instructions,
is not ever an excuse to sin, to disobey Him, or to do anything except obey Him IMMEDIATELY when He Tells Someone/Anyone what to DO.
(or agree IMMEDIATELY, without doubt, without UNBELIEF).

Rarely did Yahweh tell WHY to His People , and there is no one who can require it before obeying Him.

Note how evil people will tell a private to shoot / bomb/ kill others when ordered to do so, without questioning the mere human officer giving the orders !!!!!!!!!!!!
Yet people think they have a right to know WHY God does something.
They have no such right. (being clay pots in the hands of the Potter)

Agreed. But they will in the end see the reason, I think; the lost, at least will see enough, but not know the joy, satisfaction nor the continuing enjoyment of being in Christ, but rather will feel the terror of being in his presence, and will be undone, all virtue and loveliness removed from them, hardly resembling the person we thought we esteemed. Such do not have the capacity to know the mind of God which has everything to do with his reasons for what he has done.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I don't see why it took a story detailing the terrible orchestrated suffering of an individual to make the point that bad things happen. Anyone with even a modicum of wit knows that bad things happen.

First,

I'm sorry, but I don't see any wisdom, poetic or otherwise, in the story, none at all. What wisdom do you take from the story?

I am certainly not looking for wisdom and truth from what I read in the bible.

So putting your sarcasm aside for a moment, your comments seems to suggest that you really have no interest in Job other than by using it to troll Christians for your entertainment. The reason why you don't understand is simply because your statements declare you a fool (Proverbs 18:2). You don't understand because you flat out told us that you don't want to understand. Thus, fool. But you are right, everyone knows that bad things happen. The question people raise is "Why?". Christians ask where is God when there seems to be so much needless suffering of the innocent? Job helps give them wisdom in understanding this problem. The question I have to ask is why should anyone spend another moment of their time wasting it on your entertainment?

 

[Neogaia777]

.

 

[Neogaia777]

What I like about this book is that it directly counters 'retribution theology' where people believe that bad things happen to bad people and good things happen to good people. Even today, people wrongfully assume that bad things are happening to them because God is punishing them for something they did wrong. This is what Job's friends were suggesting. However, chapter 1 shows this not to be true.

There are some debatable issues that surround the book of Job. First, its genre. Is it historical narrative or a poetic story involving fictional characters to tell a biblical truth? Second, its dating. It is traditionally accepted that the book is the oldest book in the Bible because Job was the priest of the family who gave offerings and performed sacrifice on behalf of the family (Job 1:4-5). However, there are some questions that must be addressed. If it is historical, who witnessed the events unfolding in heaven between the satan and God to have documented it? Why was the conversations between Job and his friends written in poetry? Nobody has conversations in poem. Is the term "satan" actually a title, as in the title of Lucifer? Or is it a description of function or role, as in that the satan was merely an angel who acted as an opponent but not THE opponent (Lucifer)? In regards to its date. Scholars cannot ignore the fact that the Book of Job is nearly identical in form, style, and theme of the Babylonian Theodicy, a poetic story written during a post exilic time. It seems more probable that the book of Job was written post-exilic with a 'contextual chronology' of a much earlier time. Like "Lord of the Rings" is a fairly recent story based on much earlier events or "Star Wars" having a contextual chronology of "A long time ago in a galaxy far away".

I tend to lean towards Job being a post-exilic Babylonian style poetry based on fictional characters in an early chronological setting. Otherwise, we would have to wrestle with a lot of question that cannot be answered.

I just think many of us are wondering what were supposed to "take" or take away from and or keep and retain from this book?

God Bless!