The trials of Job

[Neogaia777]

That it is nothing more than I story, I can agree, but your post tells me that you, like just about every other believer, believe that your god can do whatever it likes and that what it does has to be good even if what it does would normally be considered immoral and barbaric. I find it strange that a supposedly omnipotent or all-powerful god suffers so easily from a bruised ego and gets extremely offended by nothing more than someone's disbelief, or someone who follows another god, or who has the audacity to question him. So offended that those who caused the offence would almost certainly be killed. Killing people is something that the believers' god seems to do habitually throughout the Old Testament, and if I may quote George Carlin when he said of the biblical god, "But he loves you!"

Do you think He, (God in the OT, or God as described in "just the OT") was "the God of this world"...? Or a young God...? Or and inexperienced God...? Didn't know what it was like to man or human...? Or a Made up God by liars, or what...?

Is or isn't real, or doesn't exist or what...?

Oh and to George Carlin, "Were talking about a rather unique kind of Fatherly kind of Love right...? Of the real and perfect kind, which includes some things having to do with raising and training, and teaching and instruction and encouraging maturity, training them up to adulthood and into adulthood, discipline, teaching self discipline and control, ect, respect and honor and integrity, ect, and we have to grow into these things, and grow in these things, and a Father teaches and trains up their child in these things, With God in spiritual maturity and knowledge, ect...

You know, in Star Trek, with the Borg, in one episode they justify a plan to genocide of all of the Borg basically, and if it can happen even in a like Star Trek reality then what makes that it can never ever be, or was ever just, or was fully justified at one point in time, or at some point(s) as well, in certain cases... Like in Being a/the God's case, or with certain races or peoples of the past, especially if there are or were spirits involved....?

God Bless!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

It always interests me how there is such a range of interpretations of scripture from Christians. I sometimes listen to Premier Christian Radio, and they have everyone from full blown Bible literalists to the most liberal of "soft" Christians on their various programmes. I suppose all that really matters is that individuals follow their own beliefs honestly and with integrity, and everything else is merely human interpretation?

The one of the first things I learned in seminary was that there is a lot of "grey" in theology. Of course you have your black and white issues. However, when you literally have doctrines and dogmas that have been argued and debated for thousands of years, there is obviously supporting biblical evidence for both. Being non-denominational, I am in a camp that, for the most part, believes that there are essential theological issues and non-essential ones. What I mean by "Non-essential issues" are issues that have absolutely no impact on ones salvation. For example, whether or not Job really happened or just poetic. I don't see any reason for the Church to be divided any further. I think it is perfectly acceptable to agree to disagree.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Read the verses I copied. Job is placing what he thinks is his winning "defense" before God and signing it and is asking God to defend His actions, which is placing God some kind of equal plain with Job himself. Job is actually saying God cannot defend what he has done to him (that means Job thinks God is wrong).
Job is being dangerously sarcastic with God.

Job is in pain. I do not see him claiming God made a mistake. He is agonizing over WHY this is happening to him. To claim God is making a mistake is to operate on the same plane as his friends, who claim Job somehow deserved what happened. But his friends, no matter how accurate and eloquent, were missing the whole point.

Job knows God, and knows God can do whatever he pleases, owing nobody an explanation, but it DOES HURT. Would you fault Christ for asking "Why have you forsaken me?" Christ knew why God forsook him. But it hurt with an infinite pain.

Meanwhile, on with Job; he lays out before God and his friends, what God tells them later was true --that what happened to Job was not because of his sin, nor his questioning God, nor his sarcastic impudence nor anything else you can lay to Job's account. God did it for his own reasons.

 

[Par5]

The one of the first things I learned in seminary was that there is a lot of "grey" in theology. Of course you have your black and white issues. However, when you literally have doctrines and dogmas that have been argued and debated for thousands of years, there is obviously supporting biblical evidence for both. Being non-denominational, I am in a camp that, for the most part, believes that there are essential theological issues and non-essential ones. What I mean by "Non-essential issues" are issues that have absolutely no impact on ones salvation. For example, whether or not Job really happened or just poetic. I don't see any reason for the Church to be divided any further. I think it is perfectly acceptable to agree to disagree.

But how do you know what is real and what is not? How do you know what is black and what is white? You say that you are sure of the essential issues that will lead to your salvation, but are you able to tell me that within Christianity there is total agreement as to just what those essential issues are?
If I had come down from another planet and was investigating this Christian religion that the earthlings followed and read the Old Testament to find out about the god they worshipped I would be seriously concerned. I doubt if I would be inclined to go on and read the New Testament.
So what do you believe is true about the god as recorded in the Old Testament? To me, it paints him as cruel and vindictive. Do you really believe in a god whose answer to what it sees as disobedience to its will is death and destruction or do you just consider these things as non-essential?

 

[Neogaia777]

So what do you believe is true about the god as recorded in the Old Testament? To me, it paints him as cruel and vindictive. Do you really believe in a god whose answer to what it sees as disobedience to its will is death and destruction or do you just consider these things as non-essential?

Nonetheless, one that exists right...?

He says "I AM that I AM, or what/who I AM, ect...

But I'm wondering if it could be a "was as He was, or "is as He is, or will be or will become, as He will be, or will cause Himself (and others) to become", ect, if it (I AM) were expressed in time, ect...?

Do you know what it is like to be God...? or the only begotten Holy Son of God of that God...?

Cause I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it...?

God Bless!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

But how do you know what is real and what is not? How do you know what is black and what is white? You say that you are sure of the essential issues that will lead to your salvation, but are you able to tell me that within Christianity there is total agreement as to just what those essential issues are?

Yes, its called the Nicene Creed. Those are the non-negotiable issues that define what it means to be "Christian". CF even clearly states that this is how they define "Christian" and you can find it in the CF Statement of Faith. There is a button for it in the very top right corner of your screen. When it comes to Christian theology, the diversity of thought is vast. However, every Christian denomination has one thing in common, that is the Nicene Creed. Otherwise, they by definition, are not Christian but heretics.

 

[Neogaia777]

Nonetheless, one that exists right...?

He says "I AM that I AM, or what/who I AM, ect...

But I'm wondering if it could be a "was as He was, or "is as He is, or will be or will become, as He will be, or will cause Himself (and others) to become", ect, if it (I AM) were expressed in time, ect...?

Do you know what it is like to be God...? or the only begotten Holy Son of God of that God...?

Cause I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it...?

God Bless!

I've "seen things", (extraordinary things... sometimes out of this world things), in my own life, many, many times and on many occasions that could only be attributed to God and/or god-like abilities, or some that were or had to be God, and others could have been a god or gods maybe...? but the "supernatural was definitely involved...

And a God/god and/or gods were at work, i could and sometimes still can tell, or sense, or detect, or see, or notice it or these things sometimes now still, when they happen...

I know both that God in the OT, and Jesus in the NT, is able to control and or/manipulate these things and give abilities or impart them to others, ect...

God Bless!

 

[Par5]

Nonetheless, one that exists right...?

He says "I AM that I AM, or what/who I AM, ect...

But I'm wondering if it could be a "was as He was, or "is as He is, or will be or will become, as He will be, or will cause Himself (and others) to become", ect, if it (I AM) were expressed in time, ect...?

Do you know what it is like to be God...? or the only begotten Holy Son of God of that God...?

Cause I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it...?

God Bless!

"]Nonetheless, one that exists right...? "
No, that's what you believe.
It always strikes me that Christians believe what they want to believe and the things that cause them concern they dismiss with, "Ah we can't understand god's mind, he has his reasons for doing things, reasons he doesn't have to explain to anyone, and anyway, anything he does has to be good and for our own good."
I think that such sycophantic reasoning is extremely unhealthy and more akin to those belonging to a cult.

 

[Neogaia777]

"]Nonetheless, one that exists right...? "
No, that's what you believe.
It always strikes me that Christians believe what they want to believe and the things that cause them concern they dismiss with, "Ah we can't understand god's mind, he has his reasons for doing things, reasons he doesn't have to explain to anyone, and anyway, anything he does has to be good and for our own good."
I think that such sycophantic reasoning is extremely unhealthy and more akin to those belonging to a cult.

I'm just saying there has to be an explanation is all...?

Cause there is a God/god, or a Spirit or spirits here with us right now, and you should trust me on that.... And the Bible and does say so, and Jesus himself testifies to it as well, and if that's not good enough for you then, "oh well"...

God Bless!

 

[Mark Quayle]

But how do you know what is real and what is not? How do you know what is black and what is white? You say that you are sure of the essential issues that will lead to your salvation, but are you able to tell me that within Christianity there is total agreement as to just what those essential issues are?
If I had come down from another planet and was investigating this Christian religion that the earthlings followed and read the Old Testament to find out about the god they worshipped I would be seriously concerned. I doubt if I would be inclined to go on and read the New Testament.
So what do you believe is true about the god as recorded in the Old Testament? To me, it paints him as cruel and vindictive. Do you really believe in a god whose answer to what it sees as disobedience to its will is death and destruction or do you just consider these things as non-essential?

In the long run, what is essential is God's judgement alone, but yes, there is consensus as to the the absolute essentials (not at all saying that everyone agrees, but yes, there is consensus). You probably already know what they are --That God alone is Creator, and possessed of certain attributes ascribable to no other being --omnipotent, self-existent, absolutely sovereign, etc.; and that all of mankind are morally deficient apart from the Grace of God, and responsible to God, and will be held accountable to every detail; that only in one way can any of mankind overcome their moral deficiency --and that is by the legal substitution of Christ, the Son of God in their stead, indeed the exchanging of moral status, the righteousness of Christ imputed on their behalf, and he paying their debt to God. And, That God has promised everlasting life to those that are his --to those he has given that "new birth" which is integral to Redemption.

The God of the old Testament is the same as in the new Testament, in spite of what he does. As Jesus points out in the NT, the unfaithful slave rejects the idea of mercy, claiming that the master is a hard man who takes what is not his. Jonah in the OT, on the other hand, hateful bigot, rebel, hard-headed though he was, knows God is full of kindness and mercy. What God does in the OT has everything to do with what he is (or was) after --the final destination, (and the journey --the life of the people he has chosen for himself.) He does not change for the NT, but does take a different tack, one if anything more severe, making no excuses for those that refuse him, demanding absolute giving over of self to him.

You may see God in the OT as the one who "smites", but he does this so his people will learn, and so the others will further condemn themselves. But in the NT he doesn't seem to be so patient and accommodating --you don't find whole books dedicated to warning and pleading with his people for their repentance.

This life is not about this life.

 

[bling]

Job is in pain. I do not see him claiming God made a mistake. He is agonizing over WHY this is happening to him. To claim God is making a mistake is to operate on the same plane as his friends, who claim Job somehow deserved what happened. But his friends, no matter how accurate and eloquent, were missing the whole point.

Job knows God, and knows God can do whatever he pleases, owing nobody an explanation, but it DOES HURT. Would you fault Christ for asking "Why have you forsaken me?" Christ knew why God forsook him. But it hurt with an infinite pain.

Meanwhile, on with Job; he lays out before God and his friends, what God tells them later was true --that what happened to Job was not because of his sin, nor his questioning God, nor his sarcastic impudence nor anything else you can lay to Job's account. God did it for his own reasons.

Job is asking God for an explanation and being very sarcastic with God.
If Christ is saying: God has really actually "forsaken Him", than Christ is in direct contradiction with the writer of Psalms 22 (which Christ is quoting in Hebrew the foist verse to whom)? The writer of Psalms 22 in the diatribe style of a individual lament does start out with a question and support for the wrong conclusion and later gives the correct answer (very much like most diatribes).
Does God only speak Hebrew?
Read Psalms 22 and think about who in the crowd at the cross might need that answer to their question (Christ used scripture to answer satan's questions so who are the disciples of satan at the cross)?

 

[gaara4158]

I've "seen things", (extraordinary things... sometimes out of this world things), in my own life, many, many times and on many occasions that could only be attributed to God and/or god-like abilities, or some that were or had to be God, and others could have been a god or gods maybe...? but the "supernatural was definitely involved...

And a God/god and/or gods were at work, i could and sometimes still can tell, or sense, or detect, or see, or notice it or these things sometimes now still, when they happen...

I know both that God in the OT, and Jesus in the NT, is able to control and or/manipulate these things and give abilities or impart them to others, ect...

God Bless!

No one’s asked yet, so I’ll bite on this. What are these things you’ve seen that convince you that God or gods exist and how did you determine that the supernatural was involved? Because if we’re going to grant God the ability and moral authority to do absolutely *anything,* even things that seem out of character, then the claim that God is behind any given event appears completely unfalsifiable, doesn’t it?

 

[Neogaia777]

No one’s asked yet, so I’ll bite on this. What are these things you’ve seen that convince you that God or gods exist and how did you determine that the supernatural was involved? Because if we’re going to grant God the ability and moral authority to do absolutely *anything,* even things that seem out of character, then the claim that God is behind any given event appears completely unfalsifiable, doesn’t it?

He showed me many instances of His providence and His omniscience with many different things in my life, personally...

God Bless!

 

[gaara4158]

He showed me many instances of His providence and His omniscience with many different things in my life, personally...

God Bless!

Yes, you said that, but I was wondering if you were willing to share specifically what those instances were.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, you said that, but I was wondering if you were willing to share specifically what those instances were.

I could write a book... and even one story or instance would not be enough probably, and it would be a long post that I'm just not willing to commit to doing right now...

God Bless!

 

[Starcomet]

No one’s asked yet, so I’ll bite on this. What are these things you’ve seen that convince you that God or gods exist and how did you determine that the supernatural was involved? Because if we’re going to grant God the ability and moral authority to do absolutely *anything,* even things that seem out of character, then the claim that God is behind any given event appears completely unfalsifiable, doesn’t it?

I do not accept that such a being would do anything out of character for any moral reason.

 

[gaara4158]

I do not accept that such a being would do anything out of character for any moral reason.

Then what was Job to believe when God purposely ruined his life and murdered his family?

 

[Starcomet]

Then what was Job to believe when God purposely ruined his life and murdered his family?

(In Morty's voice) Rick! We must remember that the story was written in a time when Jews believed God to have anthropomorphic characteristics and could judge people on a whim. The fact Job sues God near the end of the story shows that Job was using the law in his favor and shows a mindset that God could potentially make an error.

 

[Neogaia777]

Then what was Job to believe when God purposely ruined his life and murdered his family?

Job probably secretly desired greatness, or elevation of some kind in his heart, but maybe didn't know the cost involved with that, ect, or that what was really going on was about that, with him and God and God and him, and the gods and him (Job) ect...

God Bless!

 

[gaara4158]

(In Morty's voice) Rick! We must remember that the story was written in a time when Jews believed God to have anthropomorphic characteristics and could judge people on a whim. The fact Job sues God near the end of the story shows that Job was using the law in his favor and shows a mindset that God could potentially make an error.

(In Rick’s voice) So then God’s character is incomprehensible, making your statement that God can’t act out of character effectively meaningless. If we can’t recognize anything as being in or out of character for God, we can’t really say whether God would or wouldn’t act out of character for moral reasons or otherwise.