The trials of Job

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I just think many of us are wondering what were supposed to "take" or take away from and or keep and retain from this book?

God Bless!

I agree. Which is why genre is so important in hermeneutical study.

 

[Neogaia777]

I agree. Which is why genre is so important in hermeneutical study.

Care to elaborate...?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Care to elaborate...?

Genre is critical in determining how we read something. This applies to anything, not just the bible. For example, if we read a sci-fi novel we could probably expect aliens, or futuristic weapons and space voyages. In a fantasy novel, we could expect wizards, and goblins ect.. You would not expect to see these things in a historical narrative or on the front page of the local newspaper. In poetry, we would expect a lot of imagery filled with analogies and metaphors. For example, lets look at Psalm 22:
Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

As you can tell by looking at this scripture, establishing the proper genre is critical to understanding the appropriate context of the scripture. Undoubtedly, this is poetry where the animals are metaphorical to the wicked people who are plotting against David. However, if we mistakenly read this as historical narrative, we may mistakenly conclude that David is describing a very bad day at the Zoo.

 

[Neogaia777]

Genre is critical in determining how we read something. This applies to anything, not just the bible. For example, if we read a sci-fi novel we could probably expect aliens, or futuristic weapons and space voyages. In a fantasy novel, we could expect wizards, and goblins ect.. You would not expect to see these things in a historical narrative or on the front page of the local newspaper. In poetry, we would expect a lot of imagery filled with analogies and metaphors. For example, lets look at Psalm 22:
Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

As you can tell by looking at this scripture, establishing the proper genre is critical to understanding the appropriate context of the scripture. Undoubtedly, this is poetry where the animals are metaphorical to the wicked people who are plotting against David. However, if we mistakenly read this as historical narrative, we may mistakenly conclude that David is describing a very bad day at the Zoo.

So, what are we supposed to take (away from) the book of Job...?

 

[Dave RP]

There is a very interesting discussion in the Christian Scriptures thread about the book of Job. The general consensus among the Christian posters is that it is one of their favourite books giving a clear indication that god is always in control. They see the story as being wonderous and good and I am sure it will come as no surprise to anyone if I say that I see it as anything but good.
Just about everyone knows the story of Job and his suffering, but for those who have been living on the moon, it goes something like this. Job was considered a good and righteous man, totally loyal and true to his god. God and satan meet, and in order to show that Job was totally loyal god said that satan could do what he liked to Job, except kill him and that Job would still remain faithful to him. I have often wondered who was privy to this conversation between these two supernatural beings, but that's another story. Satan then embarks on a spree of death and destruction, killing off Job's family and destroying his livelihood. At the end of it all Job still remains faithful and true as predicted by god. God gave no reason to Job why he was subjected to such suffering.
I see the wager as an exercise in extreme cruelty by two equally egotistical beings. The devil is always made out to be devious and intelligent, but in this story he is definitely not the sharpest tool in the box. He and god were once the best of buddies and satan would have known that god was omniscient. Only an idiot would bet against a being it knew to be omniscient.
As for poor old Job, knowing that the god he devoted his life to was responsible for allowing his terrible suffering yet was still unwavering in his loyalty makes him a very foolish man in my eyes. Yes, yes, I know what the bible says about calling someone a fool, but as far as Job is concerned I think foolish is a rather mild criticism.
On a happier note, a very happy new year to all.

I always compare it to the film "Changing Places" where unscrupulous individuals have a bet on swapping over two people, destroying the life of one and transforming the life of the other, all for a $5 bet. God and Satan apparently had a bet, albeit without money changing hands and some poor bloke went through hell on earth as a result. To me it shows the God of the old testament to be arbitrarily cruel just for his own gratification, although I fully accept that believers won't see it that way.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So, what are we supposed to take (away from) the book of Job...?

First, there is an overwhelming evidence that demonstrates Job to be a poetic story to teach biblical truths. Much like one of Aesop's Fables. There is no reason to assume that the events mentioned are historical narrative and we shouldn't dedicated too much attention on who the satan is or why is God making a wager with Him because it did not happen. It is a simple story about an imaginary character who was placed in a situation of "IF" God was the type to needlessly make people suffer as a result of a bet, (which He is not) would you still worship Him if for no other reason than because He is God and you are His creation. Many Christian who hold to a more fundamental position are left with the burden of trying to defend the actions of a seemingly malevolent God which ultimately ends with "Might makes right" or "Because God can do whatever He wants, therefore He isn't bad". I simply conclude that God is not like anything of the sort and the entire story is on big hypothetical question of "If God was like this, would you respond like Job?"

I would like to add that this is a very debatable topic amongst biblical scholars so I completely understand if anyone disagrees. I won't take it personal.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I always compare it to the film "Changing Places" where unscrupulous individuals have a bet on swapping over two people, destroying the life of one and transforming the life of the other, all for a $5 bet. God and Satan apparently had a bet, albeit without money changing hands and some poor bloke went through hell on earth as a result. To me it shows the God of the old testament to be arbitrarily cruel just for his own gratification, although I fully accept that believers won't see it that way.

Try looking over posts #4, 9, 10, 43, and 46. It may give you a different perspective on Job.

 

[Dave RP]

Try looking over posts #4, 9, 10, 43, and 46. It may give you a different perspective on Job.

It always interests me how there is such a range of interpretations of scripture from Christians. I sometimes listen to Premier Christian Radio, and they have everyone from full blown Bible literalists to the most liberal of "soft" Christians on their various programmes. I suppose all that really matters is that individuals follow their own beliefs honestly and with integrity, and everything else is merely human interpretation?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

It always interests me how there is such a range of interpretations of scripture from Christians. I sometimes listen to Premier Christian Radio, and they have everyone from full blown Bible literalists to the most liberal of "soft" Christians on their various programmes. I suppose all that really matters is that individuals follow their own beliefs honestly and with integrity, and everything else is merely human interpretation?

What I have found while studying hermeneutics is that usually if it doesn't make sense, its probably wrong.

 

[Starcomet]

There is a very interesting discussion in the Christian Scriptures thread about the book of Job. The general consensus among the Christian posters is that it is one of their favourite books giving a clear indication that god is always in control. They see the story as being wonderous and good and I am sure it will come as no surprise to anyone if I say that I see it as anything but good.
Just about everyone knows the story of Job and his suffering, but for those who have been living on the moon, it goes something like this. Job was considered a good and righteous man, totally loyal and true to his god. God and satan meet, and in order to show that Job was totally loyal god said that satan could do what he liked to Job, except kill him and that Job would still remain faithful to him. I have often wondered who was privy to this conversation between these two supernatural beings, but that's another story. Satan then embarks on a spree of death and destruction, killing off Job's family and destroying his livelihood. At the end of it all Job still remains faithful and true as predicted by god. God gave no reason to Job why he was subjected to such suffering.
I see the wager as an exercise in extreme cruelty by two equally egotistical beings. The devil is always made out to be devious and intelligent, but in this story he is definitely not the sharpest tool in the box. He and god were once the best of buddies and satan would have known that god was omniscient. Only an idiot would bet against a being it knew to be omniscient.
As for poor old Job, knowing that the god he devoted his life to was responsible for allowing his terrible suffering yet was still unwavering in his loyalty makes him a very foolish man in my eyes. Yes, yes, I know what the bible says about calling someone a fool, but as far as Job is concerned I think foolish is a rather mild criticism.
On a happier note, a very happy new year to all.

We must remember that this is indeed just a story and the events likely never happened. The satan in this is not the Christian devil, but the advisory angel who test mankind for god. This story is a glimpse into the early Jewish view of God and his heavenly council/bureaucracy. Satan wishes to show that humans are only faithful because God blesses them and that once they have loss everything, even when they have done nothing wrong, they would curse him. God wanted to prove satan wrong by testing this out on Job. The moral of the story that I can find is that you cannot question or get restitution from God by accusing him of doing wrong.

If you read near the ending of the story, you will have Job essentially putting God on trial and laying out all the deeds he has done and why God is wrong to punish him. God appears and basically says, "Who are you to put me on trial? I created everything and the law and you dare to say I am wrong in punishing you?" He throws out Job's accusations on a technicality and restores his things to him because he did not curse him.

 

[Neogaia777]

What did Job have to repent of in Job 42...?

He claimed he had no need of repentance prior to that, that he made sacrifices not for himself, but his kids and for when or if they did, ect, but not him, not ever in his life, I don't think maybe, then he (finally) repents of something and is repentant and submissive to and before God if and only after being once faced with Him now (Job and God) in the end...

You know some of the things in Job could represent the invisible and/or Spirits, maybe "principalities and powers", like Levithan and Behemoth (lords/gods of the sea and the land) which at that time they thought might have had no end, different theories on the dead based on that, anyway... They can sometimes be regional or can be based upon a certain idea or ideal, (or word) and in that way could be representative of culture or something, how is it they say, "the Spirit of this or that city" or area or region, ect... But the two major beasts or Job could represent spiritual forces or angels, high principalities and powers... In Revelation we have a Giant Angel, with one of his feet on the land another on the sea, holding a scroll, John was going to fall down and worship him, but he told him not to that, ect... the land and the sea were very important, and very big to them, (the people) as I already said... It was an idea, a dwelling place for a Spirit/spirit, defined by a word...

The commonality of these representations and what they were to Job and the other characters in the story, and what they meant to the people who had it as a book or story back then, what they were to mean to them as core theology back then, and also maybe perhaps now also... The things in them (meant to represent other things) and what they meant to those people, and what they should meant to us... It is much like a dream or vision also, all these "things meant to mean or be other things" is all very confusing but I think it belongs tot the realm in which we are going, which is also here already, but we can't touch it from here, not yet...

What did Job have to repent of or for...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

and everything else is merely human interpretation?

Or maybe life is but a dream...?

God Bless!

 

[Par5]

We must remember that this is indeed just a story and the events likely never happened. The satan in this is not the Christian devil, but the advisory angel who test mankind for god. This story is a glimpse into the early Jewish view of God and his heavenly council/bureaucracy. Satan wishes to show that humans are only faithful because God blesses them and that once they have loss everything, even when they have done nothing wrong, they would curse him. God wanted to prove satan wrong by testing this out on Job. The moral of the story that I can find is that you cannot question or get restitution from God by accusing him of doing wrong.

If you read near the ending of the story, you will have Job essentially putting God on trial and laying out all the deeds he has done and why God is wrong to punish him. God appears and basically says, "Who are you to put me on trial? I created everything and the law and you dare to say I am wrong in punishing you?" He throws out Job's accusations on a technicality and restores his things to him because he did not curse him.

That it is nothing more than I story, I can agree, but your post tells me that you, like just about every other believer, believe that your god can do whatever it likes and that what it does has to be good even if what it does would normally be considered immoral and barbaric. I find it strange that a supposedly omnipotent or all-powerful god suffers so easily from a bruised ego and gets extremely offended by nothing more than someone's disbelief, or someone who follows another god, or who has the audacity to question him. So offended that those who caused the offence would almost certainly be killed. Killing people is something that the believers' god seems to do habitually throughout the Old Testament, and if I may quote George Carlin when he said of the biblical god, "But he loves you!"

 

[Starcomet]

That it is nothing more than I story, I can agree, but your post tells me that you, like just about every other believer, believe that your god can do whatever it likes and that what it does has to be good even if what it does would normally be considered immoral and barbaric. I find it strange that a supposedly omnipotent or all-powerful god suffers so easily from a bruised ego and gets extremely offended by nothing more than someone's disbelief, or someone who follows another god, or who has the audacity to question him. So offended that those who caused the offence would almost certainly be killed. Killing people is something that the believers' god seems to do habitually throughout the Old Testament, and if I may quote George Carlin when he said of the biblical god, "But he loves you!"

You are mistaken, I am merely telling you what the point of Job was. I never indicated that I agreed with the message. You must remember that the ancient Jews held a very different view of God then than they do now. God was very anthropomorphic and could get jealous and such.

 

[bling]

Where do you get the concept that Job thought God did something by mistake? I must have missed something, or is that your extrapolation?

Read the verses I copied. Job is placing what he thinks is his winning "defense" before God and signing it and is asking God to defend His actions, which is placing God some kind of equal plain with Job himself. Job is actually saying God cannot defend what he has done to him (that means Job thinks God is wrong).
Job is being dangerously sarcastic with God.

 

[Starcomet]

Read the verses I copied. Job is placing what he thinks is his winning "defense" before God and signing it and is asking God to defend His actions, which is placing God some kind of equal plain with Job himself. Job is actually saying God cannot defend what he has done to him (that means Job thinks God is wrong).
Job is being dangerously sarcastic with God.

That is what I mentioned in my post! Job was arguing God made a mistake and lists his reasons for why he knows this. This made God come down and go on a tirade on how dare he accuse him of being wrong and "knowing" he was wrong.

 

[bling]

That is what I mentioned in my post! Job was arguing God made a mistake and lists his reasons for why he knows this. This made God come down and go on a tirade on how dare he accuse him of being wrong and "knowing" he was wrong.

Job was a better man for it.

 

[Par5]

Job was a better man for it.

Of course he was. I'm sure he was feeling much much better. Who wouldn't have been after what he went through?

 

[Neogaia777]

Job was a better man for it.

And more greatly and highly blessed in the end because of it... Also elevated more after it...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Job is being dangerously sarcastic with God.

But he did kind of need that maybe, to get through the first three companions, who had to bow to Job in the end, and need him now, then, as now "their intercessor between them and God, and God and them now" instead of the other way around, that they failed at with Job, and part of God's anger was directed at them, those first three supposed companions, or false counselors, who are "also speaking without knowledge" basically, and God's anger is with pretty much all of them not only over that, but/and with all of what happened with all of them, cause many think those counselors were angels, even perhaps Spirits maybe...?

Elihu is an interesting character, and some say is like, the or at least a, Son of God, Son of the Most High God, the True Father, who speaks and come on the scene after Elihu addresses Job and those other three companions a bit (Job 32) (Job 38)...

Regardless of whether Job needed it or not though, he still needed to repent, and did, and God greatly blessed him and highly favored him, and highly exalted him in the end, for going through all of what he went through, even more so than he ever had before... And maybe as a kind of reward as well, IDK...? But He made Job that way and chose his tale to be told and that is part of the story as well, but that is a topic for another time, and perhaps in another or other threads...

I'm not suggesting that Being in any sarcastic with God in any way shape or form, OK, in way, and I don't advise it at all, but if Job was kind of being that way, (He was with the three companions at times), if he was kind of being that, considering everything he had, then lost, and alll that he went through and was going through, thinking that you were a pretty good person all of your life, so not knowing why, I could maybe understand how he might have being a little sarcastic at times, bitter maybe, if only a little, take a couple pokes at God, or the God of it all, sometimes, but I don't think he ever even ever "disrespected" God, and he most certainly did not curse Him to His face, like Satan said he would, I don't think he ever disrespected God cause he seemed to be being very careful not to be doing that, but all in all and "considering"...? Understandable, I think, and I think it was very forgivable, and I think God understood, but, God also wanted to "elevate him even more so than before", and sometimes the only way to do that is...? well...? Remember God was basically bragging on Job and kind of showing him off, to others, or in front of others, angels maybe...?

God Bless!