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I'm guessing the Rick and Morty reference started because of your old avatar, but it's so apt that your conversation could be considered a direct reference to an episode.(In Rick’s voice) So then God’s character is incomprehensible, making your statement that God can’t act out of character effectively meaningless. If we can’t recognize anything as being in or out of character for God, we can’t really say whether God would or wouldn’t act out of character for moral reasons or otherwise.
There is a very interesting discussion in the Christian Scriptures thread about the book of Job. The general consensus among the Christian posters is that it is one of their favourite books giving a clear indication that god is always in control. They see the story as being wonderous and good and I am sure it will come as no surprise to anyone if I say that I see it as anything but good.
Just about everyone knows the story of Job and his suffering, but for those who have been living on the moon, it goes something like this. Job was considered a good and righteous man, totally loyal and true to his god. God and satan meet, and in order to show that Job was totally loyal god said that satan could do what he liked to Job, except kill him and that Job would still remain faithful to him. I have often wondered who was privy to this conversation between these two supernatural beings, but that's another story. Satan then embarks on a spree of death and destruction, killing off Job's family and destroying his livelihood. At the end of it all Job still remains faithful and true as predicted by god. God gave no reason to Job why he was subjected to such suffering.
I see the wager as an exercise in extreme cruelty by two equally egotistical beings. The devil is always made out to be devious and intelligent, but in this story he is definitely not the sharpest tool in the box. He and god were once the best of buddies and satan would have known that god was omniscient. Only an idiot would bet against a being it knew to be omniscient.
As for poor old Job, knowing that the god he devoted his life to was responsible for allowing his terrible suffering yet was still unwavering in his loyalty makes him a very foolish man in my eyes. Yes, yes, I know what the bible says about calling someone a fool, but as far as Job is concerned I think foolish is a rather mild criticism.
On a happier note, a very happy new year to all.
(In Rick’s voice) So then God’s character is incomprehensible, making your statement that God can’t act out of character effectively meaningless. If we can’t recognize anything as being in or out of character for God, we can’t really say whether God would or wouldn’t act out of character for moral reasons or otherwise.
It's only a piece of fiction, but if you mean like Job's wife I see god as the villain of the piece because of the cruel way he squashed what he saw as Job's insubordination in order to bring Job back to his more sycophantic self, then yes, I would side with Job's wife and most certainly with Nietzsche.So, you're siding with Job's wife, then? Or, should I say, you side with Nietzsche or Sartre rather than with Kierkegaard and/or Pascal? As for myself, I'll stick with the latter ... as well as with Dr. Tim Mackie who presents more of the "usual" in the following video.
Yeah, and it's called assuming the omnibenevolence and omnibenevolent nature of the very most and very greatest a highest God or being ever, the Creator, the source and origin and beginning and end of "all" and all things; I think we should "err on the side of caution" and say that that kind of being must be "all-good", or "always good" (or ultimately good) also, or as well (or omnibenevolent as well)...I did watch your little cartoon and all it does is demonstrate that Christians are conditioned to say that any action carried out by their god has to be good
Job is asking God for an explanation and being very sarcastic with God.
If Christ is saying: God has really actually "forsaken Him", than Christ is in direct contradiction with the writer of Psalms 22 (which Christ is quoting in Hebrew the foist verse to whom)? The writer of Psalms 22 in the diatribe style of a individual lament does start out with a question and support for the wrong conclusion and later gives the correct answer (very much like most diatribes).
Does God only speak Hebrew?
Read Psalms 22 and think about who in the crowd at the cross might need that answer to their question (Christ used scripture to answer satan's questions so who are the disciples of satan at the cross)?
It's only a piece of fiction, but if you mean like Job's wife I see god as the villain of the piece because of the cruel way he squashed what he saw as Job's insubordination in order to bring Job back to his more sycophantic self, then yes, I would side with Job's wife and most certainly with Nietzsche.
I did watch your little cartoon and all it does is demonstrate that Christians are conditioned to say that any action carried out by their god has to be good, even if they are actions that are considered to be evil and cruel by those not conditioned to think in such a fashion. Having someone's family murdered, destroying their livelihood and putting them through terrible mental anguish for simply questioning someone in authority are examples of the kind of actions I consider to be evil and cruel.
Matthew 27:46 is often used as a “proof text” scripture to show: God left Christ while on the cross because Christ had become this sinful person or something like that, but that is not what Matt. 27:46 is supporting and is actually supporting just the opposite.I think a good study of just what happened at the death of Christ would show that God did indeed forsake Christ, relegated him to precisely the same punishment that the elect deserved. The forever lost will be abandoned by God, and so was Christ, abandoned by the Father. This is just one more reason to see the Son of God as God himself also, because he overcame death, returned from Sheol to rise again. The fact that Father did this, according to Psalm 16, since it is apparently the Messiah speaking to the Father, does not mean that he did not pay the exact penalty of the elect, nor does it mean that he was not forsaken, for a "time" or purpose. Nor does it even begin to imply that Christ was a creature, and not the Creator himself.
Do you not believe that he "experienced the full brunt of the Father's wrath" (as it has been described) on the Cross? We really don't know what happened, except a few words to give it direction in our minds. We have no idea of flavor of it, nor the severity.
Oh dear, I only hope you are not going to start bragging again about how you have studied this and studied that and have more degrees than a thermometer thus enabling you to understand the things the rest of us mere mortals just can't comprehend?...and what is this particular philosophy of "good and evil" you're using and by which you're evaluating the book of Job? Could you share it, or are you "beyond" describing it to us?
Oh dear, I only hope you are not going to start bragging again about how you have studied this and studied that and have more degrees than a thermometer thus enabling you to understand the things the rest of us mere mortals just can't comprehend?
I don't need a particular anything to say that murdering someone's family and destroying their livelihood, for nothing more than that person's supposed insubordination, is cruel and evil. If you think something like that is good, then all I can say is that I feel sorry that your mind is so messed up.
Of course it’s just a story. It’s a story that completely undermines the idea of moral principles by justifying unspeakable cruelty on an innocent man and his family by basically saying “Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it? I’m God. I hold all the cards. I do what I want and no one can stop me. You can’t even guilt me. I’m the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, Morty! I can do no wrong!”(In Morty's voice) Rick it is just a story! The moral at the time was that you cannot sue or question whether what God does is wrong or incorrect. When Job tried to do just that, God told him he was essentially being arrogant. I do not believe such a being would do such a thing and it is just a story that never happened.
Of course it’s just a story. It’s a story that completely undermines the idea of moral principles by justifying unspeakable cruelty on an innocent man and his family by basically saying “Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it? I’m God. I hold all the cards. I do what I want and no one can stop me. You can’t even guilt me. I’m the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, Morty! I can do no wrong!”
I am glad you do not credit the deity you revere with such disdainful behavior toward humanity. If you did, you might be primed to believe that voice in your head telling you to drown your children so they can go to Heaven really is God.
Clever. Really? Have some respect.First off: to interpret any scripture you have to keep 5 thing in mind: context, context, context, context and context.
Of course it’s just a story. It’s a story that completely undermines the idea of moral principles by justifying unspeakable cruelty on an innocent man and his family by basically saying “Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it? I’m God. I hold all the cards. I do what I want and no one can stop me. You can’t even guilt me. I’m the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, Morty! I can do no wrong!”
I am glad you do not credit the deity you revere with such disdainful behavior toward humanity. If you did, you might be primed to believe that voice in your head telling you to drown your children so they can go to Heaven really is God.
There is also for the believer, or someone who becomes a believer in it or through it, or during it, and keeps the faith in it and through it, there is a "promise" from God attached to it or that, that is supposed to 100% sure for those who will keep the faith and not curse God during it or through it, or lose faith entirely, ect, "promise", (promise "from God" now) of much greater blessings, in the end, even more prosperous than before... Not so for the non-believer or one who refuses to believe...I actually really like the Book of Job. Obviously it's just a story, but I think it's a pretty sophisticated take on the Problem of Evil. We have a religion that equates righteousness with obtaining God's favor, so we really do need to deal with the fact that bad things happen to good people. Job may be fictional, but there are plenty of real life counterparts who do everything right and have their lives destroyed anyway. We know this, and so did the ancient Israelites. It needs to be addressed.
I'm not sure it's a particularly good answer to the Problem of Evil, at least compared to more modern theology, but I don't think it's so terrible that we need to rage against it.
Of course it’s just a story. It’s a story that completely undermines the idea of moral principles by justifying unspeakable cruelty on an innocent man and his family by basically saying “Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it? I’m God. I hold all the cards. I do what I want and no one can stop me. You can’t even guilt me. I’m the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, Morty! I can do no wrong!”
I am glad you do not credit the deity you revere with such disdainful behavior toward humanity. If you did, you might be primed to believe that voice in your head telling you to drown your children so they can go to Heaven really is God.
That is what I heard from a PHD in New Testament Studies tell me.Clever. Really? Have some respect.
God places himself above the law. He has to, otherwise he would have to answer for his many, many murders. I believe a truly virtuous god wouldn’t have to do that.Obviously the moral of the story has no impact on our society. I believe God would never do such a thing and most try to soften the story's moral, but it is what it is. I still find the idea that a man can sue God interesting though.
The more I think about the book of Job, the more I sour to it. I don’t think its answer to the problem of evil is anything to rage about either, but its response to the moral version of the Euthyphro dilemma seems to be that morality is defined according to God’s purposes, no matter how petty they may be. This gives us no good reason to value God’s morality apart from what he might do to us if we don’t - and it even if we do, there’s no promise he won’t spare us. At this point, it’s simpler to say that God doesn’t exist at all and things just happen to people. Job’s story doesn’t offer a better answer and it primes believers to accept morally evil commands if they’re convinced those commands come from God, ala Abraham and Isaac.I actually really like the Book of Job. Obviously it's just a story, but I think it's a pretty sophisticated take on the Problem of Evil. We have a religion that equates righteousness with obtaining God's favor, so we really do need to deal with the fact that bad things happen to good people. Job may be fictional, but there are plenty of real life counterparts who do everything right and have their lives destroyed anyway. We know this, and so did the ancient Israelites. It needs to be addressed.
I'm not sure it's a particularly good answer to the Problem of Evil, at least compared to more modern theology, but I don't think it's so terrible that we need to rage against it.
Showing up only to reveal he’s been in league with the Devil trying to break you tends not to elicit the hero’s welcome in people. I can’t imagine why...Actually, it doesn't undermine anything in the mythical realm of "Moraltown." Why? Because the very God, the very Creator, whom everyone so often gripes about in His ongoing "ABSENTEEISM" ........................................... actually does show up! Of course, everyone then proceeds to ignore the rest of the story of Job, its outcome, as well as the metaphysical implications of the story.
The question now is: Why does everyone do this? The answer: because life is so very often painful for each and every one of us and we're each, like Sartre, left staring up through the thick darkness at the stars, wondering if there is a god and feeling that there isn't. But in the book of Job, lo and behold, we're presented with a story where the Dude actually shows up, even if when He does so, it's in less than consolatory terms.
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