The trials of Job

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,641
✟476,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
(In Rick’s voice) So then God’s character is incomprehensible, making your statement that God can’t act out of character effectively meaningless. If we can’t recognize anything as being in or out of character for God, we can’t really say whether God would or wouldn’t act out of character for moral reasons or otherwise.
I'm guessing the Rick and Morty reference started because of your old avatar, but it's so apt that your conversation could be considered a direct reference to an episode.

Secret Service Agent: "He's not some sort of living god!"

Rick: "You don't know what I am! You don't know what I can do!"
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Get my point, Web-Maker ???
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,170
9,958
The Void!
✟1,131,566.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There is a very interesting discussion in the Christian Scriptures thread about the book of Job. The general consensus among the Christian posters is that it is one of their favourite books giving a clear indication that god is always in control. They see the story as being wonderous and good and I am sure it will come as no surprise to anyone if I say that I see it as anything but good.
Just about everyone knows the story of Job and his suffering, but for those who have been living on the moon, it goes something like this. Job was considered a good and righteous man, totally loyal and true to his god. God and satan meet, and in order to show that Job was totally loyal god said that satan could do what he liked to Job, except kill him and that Job would still remain faithful to him. I have often wondered who was privy to this conversation between these two supernatural beings, but that's another story. Satan then embarks on a spree of death and destruction, killing off Job's family and destroying his livelihood. At the end of it all Job still remains faithful and true as predicted by god. God gave no reason to Job why he was subjected to such suffering.
I see the wager as an exercise in extreme cruelty by two equally egotistical beings. The devil is always made out to be devious and intelligent, but in this story he is definitely not the sharpest tool in the box. He and god were once the best of buddies and satan would have known that god was omniscient. Only an idiot would bet against a being it knew to be omniscient.
As for poor old Job, knowing that the god he devoted his life to was responsible for allowing his terrible suffering yet was still unwavering in his loyalty makes him a very foolish man in my eyes. Yes, yes, I know what the bible says about calling someone a fool, but as far as Job is concerned I think foolish is a rather mild criticism.
On a happier note, a very happy new year to all.

So, you're siding with Job's wife, then? Or, should I say, you side with Nietzsche or Sartre rather than with Kierkegaard and/or Pascal? As for myself, I'll stick with the latter ... as well as with Dr. Tim Mackie who presents more of the "usual" in the following video. :cool:

 
Upvote 0

Starcomet

Unitarian Sacramental Christian
May 9, 2011
334
114
Baltimore City
✟42,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Democrat
(In Rick’s voice) So then God’s character is incomprehensible, making your statement that God can’t act out of character effectively meaningless. If we can’t recognize anything as being in or out of character for God, we can’t really say whether God would or wouldn’t act out of character for moral reasons or otherwise.

(In Morty's voice) Rick it is just a story! The moral at the time was that you cannot sue or question whether what God does is wrong or incorrect. When Job tried to do just that, God told him he was essentially being arrogant. I do not believe such a being would do such a thing and it is just a story that never happened.
 
Upvote 0

Par5

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,013
653
78
LONDONDERRY
✟69,175.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
So, you're siding with Job's wife, then? Or, should I say, you side with Nietzsche or Sartre rather than with Kierkegaard and/or Pascal? As for myself, I'll stick with the latter ... as well as with Dr. Tim Mackie who presents more of the "usual" in the following video. :cool:

It's only a piece of fiction, but if you mean like Job's wife I see god as the villain of the piece because of the cruel way he squashed what he saw as Job's insubordination in order to bring Job back to his more sycophantic self, then yes, I would side with Job's wife and most certainly with Nietzsche.
I did watch your little cartoon and all it does is demonstrate that Christians are conditioned to say that any action carried out by their god has to be good, even if they are actions that are considered to be evil and cruel by those not conditioned to think in such a fashion. Having someone's family murdered, destroying their livelihood and putting them through terrible mental anguish for simply questioning someone in authority are examples of the kind of actions I consider to be evil and cruel.
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,290
5,242
45
Oregon
✟958,991.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
I did watch your little cartoon and all it does is demonstrate that Christians are conditioned to say that any action carried out by their god has to be good
Yeah, and it's called assuming the omnibenevolence and omnibenevolent nature of the very most and very greatest a highest God or being ever, the Creator, the source and origin and beginning and end of "all" and all things; I think we should "err on the side of caution" and say that that kind of being must be "all-good", or "always good" (or ultimately good) also, or as well (or omnibenevolent as well)...

And then try and work in His omnibenevolence, or ever omnibenevolent nature, in with His omniscience ,or always ever fully omniscient nature, as well...

God Bless!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,092
5,667
68
Pennsylvania
✟788,936.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Job is asking God for an explanation and being very sarcastic with God.
If Christ is saying: God has really actually "forsaken Him", than Christ is in direct contradiction with the writer of Psalms 22 (which Christ is quoting in Hebrew the foist verse to whom)? The writer of Psalms 22 in the diatribe style of a individual lament does start out with a question and support for the wrong conclusion and later gives the correct answer (very much like most diatribes).
Does God only speak Hebrew?
Read Psalms 22 and think about who in the crowd at the cross might need that answer to their question (Christ used scripture to answer satan's questions so who are the disciples of satan at the cross)?

I think a good study of just what happened at the death of Christ would show that God did indeed forsake Christ, relegated him to precisely the same punishment that the elect deserved. The forever lost will be abandoned by God, and so was Christ, abandoned by the Father. This is just one more reason to see the Son of God as God himself also, because he overcame death, returned from Sheol to rise again. The fact that Father did this, according to Psalm 16, since it is apparently the Messiah speaking to the Father, does not mean that he did not pay the exact penalty of the elect, nor does it mean that he was not forsaken, for a "time" or purpose. Nor does it even begin to imply that Christ was a creature, and not the Creator himself.

Do you not believe that he "experienced the full brunt of the Father's wrath" (as it has been described) on the Cross? We really don't know what happened, except a few words to give it direction in our minds. We have no idea of flavor of it, nor the severity.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Get my point, Web-Maker ???
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,170
9,958
The Void!
✟1,131,566.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's only a piece of fiction, but if you mean like Job's wife I see god as the villain of the piece because of the cruel way he squashed what he saw as Job's insubordination in order to bring Job back to his more sycophantic self, then yes, I would side with Job's wife and most certainly with Nietzsche.
I did watch your little cartoon and all it does is demonstrate that Christians are conditioned to say that any action carried out by their god has to be good, even if they are actions that are considered to be evil and cruel by those not conditioned to think in such a fashion. Having someone's family murdered, destroying their livelihood and putting them through terrible mental anguish for simply questioning someone in authority are examples of the kind of actions I consider to be evil and cruel.

...and what is this particular philosophy of "good and evil" you're using and by which you're evaluating the book of Job? Could you share it, or are you "beyond" describing it to us? :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,183
1,809
✟801,517.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think a good study of just what happened at the death of Christ would show that God did indeed forsake Christ, relegated him to precisely the same punishment that the elect deserved. The forever lost will be abandoned by God, and so was Christ, abandoned by the Father. This is just one more reason to see the Son of God as God himself also, because he overcame death, returned from Sheol to rise again. The fact that Father did this, according to Psalm 16, since it is apparently the Messiah speaking to the Father, does not mean that he did not pay the exact penalty of the elect, nor does it mean that he was not forsaken, for a "time" or purpose. Nor does it even begin to imply that Christ was a creature, and not the Creator himself.

Do you not believe that he "experienced the full brunt of the Father's wrath" (as it has been described) on the Cross? We really don't know what happened, except a few words to give it direction in our minds. We have no idea of flavor of it, nor the severity.
Matthew 27:46 is often used as a “proof text” scripture to show: God left Christ while on the cross because Christ had become this sinful person or something like that, but that is not what Matt. 27:46 is supporting and is actually supporting just the opposite.

Matt: 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

First off: to interpret any scripture you have to keep 5 thing in mind: context, context, context, context and context.

Remember this was not written directly to us and we are reading other people’s mail.

1. “Eli, Eli” in Matthew is Hebrew for dad, dad or father, father while Mark used the Aramaic “Elio, Elio” translated the same father, father. This could have been a copying error, Jesus said it twice using different languages or Mark might have been more familiar with the Aramaic (both are very similar), also Matt. was thought to be written in Hebrew to begin with, the main thing is it was not said in Greek or Latin.

2. Why did Jesus use his last precious breaths to make this short statement?

3. Who was this said for or to? We always like to think it was being said only directly to us and for us, but that is never the case, so who? If you say God then Jesus is wasting his breath, since God has forsaken him (if that is what really has happened). If we say: one of the thieves, what question or comment is this addressing that would help them belief in Him? If we say one of the Maries or John, they might think Christ is praising them for being better than God Himself since they have “forsaken Him”, so is that what He is saying? If we say gentiles or Roman soldiers, they would not understand Hebrew or Aramaic, so it could not be for them. There were mockers that past by and even asked questions but seemed to just walk on. So who else was there?

4. If you go back to every time Jesus was asked a sincere question or comment, you will find Jesus gave a sincere answer that would help that person or persons (not always accepted well). So are there sincere questions be asked of Christ will on the cross he will have to address? Jesus does provide answers to sincere comments and questions, so could “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” be addressing a sincere question?

5. Matt. 27: In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.
That seems to be a sincere but mocking question, so how best to address such a question? Would using scripture these priests, teachers and elders would know like the back of their hand be a good way to address these questions and shut them up, give them goosebumps and make them think?

6. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Is the first line in psalms 22 and the Psalms is something all Jews would have memorized especially the spiritual leaders. But why did Jesus not just say: “Look at Psalms 22 for your answer” (at this time the psalms were not numbered so you just quoted the first line to direct the Jew to the whole Psalm).

7. Psalms 22 is a diatribe (a moral debate over a question between two parties (God and David in Psalms 22) which all good Jewish students and teachers would recognize, which means there is a diatribe quest and strong support for the wrong conclusion to the answer always given first (before the question, right after the question or before and right after the question).

8. Why did Jesus direct these spiritual Jewish leaders to Psalm 22 for their answer? Look what is says: Psalms 22: 7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads. 8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”

That is exactly what they have been doing and saying to Christ on the cross. Look some more:14

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted within me.15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death…. 18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.

Would that not be what they are seeing?

9. The correct answer to the diatribe question comes at the end (as in all diatribe) Psalms 22: 24. For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.


The answer is God has not forsaken the sufferer and is with him, just as God was with Christ while he was on the cross.


It is hard for us to appreciate the teaching style of a diatribe used in a Psalm without reading the 70 or so individual Psalms lament diatribes with lots of discussion and understanding among our peers. As has been shown good Jewish men at this time would have studied the Psalms to the point of having them all memorized and it only took the first verse to bring to memory the entire Psalm, so Jesus is not taking one verse out of context but bringing to mine the entire Psalm, but to whom and why?

As others have pointed out this whole Psalm is not showing God lift any man at any time, but is with us at all times including being with Christ.


Why would Jesus want the Pharisees and other religious leaders to think about Psalms 22 while looking at Him on the cross:


Christ would cry out to God. Psalm 22:1a Matthew 27:46

Christ would be forsaken by God at His crucifixion. Psalm 22:1b Mark 15:34

Christ would pray without ceasing before His death. Psalm 22:2 Matthew 26:38-39

Christ would be despised and rejected by His own. Psalm 22:6 Luke 23:21-23

Christ would be made a mockery. Psalm 22:7 Matthew 27:39

Unbelievers would say to Christ, "He trusted in God, let Him now deliver Him." Psalm 22:8 Matthew 27:41-43

Christ would know His Father from childhood. Psalm 22:9 Luke 2:40

Christ would be called by God while in the womb. Psalm 22:10 Luke 1:30-33

Christ would be abandoned by His disciples. Psalm 22:11 Mark 14:50

Christ would be encompassed by evil spirits. Psalm 22:12-13 Colossians 2:15

Christ's body would emit blood & water. Psalm 22:14a John 19:34

Christ would be crucified. Psalm 22:14b Matthew 27:35

Christ would thirst while dying. Psalm 22:15a John 19:28

Christ would thirst just prior to His death. Psalm 22:15b John 19:30

Christ would be observed by Gentiles at His crucifixion. Psalm 22:16a Luke 23:36

Christ would be observed by Jews at His crucifixion. Psalm 22:16b Matthew 27:41-43

Both Christ's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16c Matthew 27:38

Christ's bones would not be broken. Psalm 22:17a John 19:32-33

Christ would be viewed by many during His crucifixion. Psalm 22:17b Luke 23:35

Christ's garments would be parted among the soldiers. Psalm 22:18a John 19:23-24

The soldiers would cast lots for Christ's clothes. Psalm 22:18b John 19:23-24

Christ's atonement would enable believers to receive salvation. Psalm 22:22 Hebrews 2:10-12
 
Upvote 0

Par5

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,013
653
78
LONDONDERRY
✟69,175.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
...and what is this particular philosophy of "good and evil" you're using and by which you're evaluating the book of Job? Could you share it, or are you "beyond" describing it to us? :rolleyes:
Oh dear, I only hope you are not going to start bragging again about how you have studied this and studied that and have more degrees than a thermometer thus enabling you to understand the things the rest of us mere mortals just can't comprehend?
I don't need a particular anything to say that murdering someone's family and destroying their livelihood, for nothing more than that person's supposed insubordination, is cruel and evil. If you think something like that is good, then all I can say is that I feel sorry that your mind is so messed up.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Get my point, Web-Maker ???
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,170
9,958
The Void!
✟1,131,566.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Oh dear, I only hope you are not going to start bragging again about how you have studied this and studied that and have more degrees than a thermometer thus enabling you to understand the things the rest of us mere mortals just can't comprehend?
I don't need a particular anything to say that murdering someone's family and destroying their livelihood, for nothing more than that person's supposed insubordination, is cruel and evil. If you think something like that is good, then all I can say is that I feel sorry that your mind is so messed up.

That's good to know that your morality is basically built on a house of sand. No, make that: hot air!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,437
2,685
United States
✟204,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
(In Morty's voice) Rick it is just a story! The moral at the time was that you cannot sue or question whether what God does is wrong or incorrect. When Job tried to do just that, God told him he was essentially being arrogant. I do not believe such a being would do such a thing and it is just a story that never happened.
Of course it’s just a story. It’s a story that completely undermines the idea of moral principles by justifying unspeakable cruelty on an innocent man and his family by basically saying “Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it? I’m God. I hold all the cards. I do what I want and no one can stop me. You can’t even guilt me. I’m the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, Morty! I can do no wrong!”

I am glad you do not credit the deity you revere with such disdainful behavior toward humanity. If you did, you might be primed to believe that voice in your head telling you to drown your children so they can go to Heaven really is God.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Starcomet

Unitarian Sacramental Christian
May 9, 2011
334
114
Baltimore City
✟42,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Democrat
Of course it’s just a story. It’s a story that completely undermines the idea of moral principles by justifying unspeakable cruelty on an innocent man and his family by basically saying “Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it? I’m God. I hold all the cards. I do what I want and no one can stop me. You can’t even guilt me. I’m the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, Morty! I can do no wrong!”

I am glad you do not credit the deity you revere with such disdainful behavior toward humanity. If you did, you might be primed to believe that voice in your head telling you to drown your children so they can go to Heaven really is God.

Obviously the moral of the story has no impact on our society. I believe God would never do such a thing and most try to soften the story's moral, but it is what it is. I still find the idea that a man can sue God interesting though.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,092
5,667
68
Pennsylvania
✟788,936.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
First off: to interpret any scripture you have to keep 5 thing in mind: context, context, context, context and context.
Clever. Really? Have some respect.
 
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Of course it’s just a story. It’s a story that completely undermines the idea of moral principles by justifying unspeakable cruelty on an innocent man and his family by basically saying “Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it? I’m God. I hold all the cards. I do what I want and no one can stop me. You can’t even guilt me. I’m the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, Morty! I can do no wrong!”

I am glad you do not credit the deity you revere with such disdainful behavior toward humanity. If you did, you might be primed to believe that voice in your head telling you to drown your children so they can go to Heaven really is God.

I actually really like the Book of Job. Obviously it's just a story, but I think it's a pretty sophisticated take on the Problem of Evil. We have a religion that equates righteousness with obtaining God's favor, so we really do need to deal with the fact that bad things happen to good people. Job may be fictional, but there are plenty of real life counterparts who do everything right and have their lives destroyed anyway. We know this, and so did the ancient Israelites. It needs to be addressed.

I'm not sure it's a particularly good answer to the Problem of Evil, at least compared to more modern theology, but I don't think it's so terrible that we need to rage against it.
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,290
5,242
45
Oregon
✟958,991.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
I actually really like the Book of Job. Obviously it's just a story, but I think it's a pretty sophisticated take on the Problem of Evil. We have a religion that equates righteousness with obtaining God's favor, so we really do need to deal with the fact that bad things happen to good people. Job may be fictional, but there are plenty of real life counterparts who do everything right and have their lives destroyed anyway. We know this, and so did the ancient Israelites. It needs to be addressed.

I'm not sure it's a particularly good answer to the Problem of Evil, at least compared to more modern theology, but I don't think it's so terrible that we need to rage against it.
There is also for the believer, or someone who becomes a believer in it or through it, or during it, and keeps the faith in it and through it, there is a "promise" from God attached to it or that, that is supposed to 100% sure for those who will keep the faith and not curse God during it or through it, or lose faith entirely, ect, "promise", (promise "from God" now) of much greater blessings, in the end, even more prosperous than before... Not so for the non-believer or one who refuses to believe...

It's Covenant of Faith, everything God has to give and/or offer comes by and through Faith, not Law or even obedience sometimes, at least obedience to the Law...

God Bless!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Silmarien
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,290
5,242
45
Oregon
✟958,991.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
At one point it says "Job did not sin in all of this with his lips", but it's early on in Job 2:10... So I'm unsure if it means "after that", or not...? But if it does, clearly we have every right, freedom, even reason or whatever to complain, be bitter, and have a bitter attitude even, and even be a bit sarcastic even, or get upset sometimes, or feel certain ways, or whatever, and speak out of those feelings to God and "whomever else", and as long as we do not curse God, and in that way "sin with our lips"... When we are under or in or during a storm or a trial I don't think it's possible to sin with your lips unless you are in some way cursing God somehow is kind of what I'm trying to say...

But you/I/we can do that (get upset or whatever) and feel that way about it or them (trials, storms, tests, ect) and cry out and be a bit bitter and complain, in it/them, ect, But I cannot help but hear someone say to me about this "For all the good you think it will do you... for all the great productivity you think it will bring (you)..." But, anyway, it is what it is though, and Job not only got doubly blessed afterward, but he got the "dual blessing", which is significant in the Bible, Jacobs getting Esau's dual blessing (his birthright and inheritance) by stealing it, or exploiting him, or by taking advantage of him and getting it from him.... then there is Elisha and Elijah, and in that story with the dual blessing, about the dual blessing, and I'm sure there are other places in the Bible about this "dual blessing" as well... It's also sometimes called a, or the, "double portion" as well...

God Bless!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Get my point, Web-Maker ???
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,170
9,958
The Void!
✟1,131,566.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Of course it’s just a story. It’s a story that completely undermines the idea of moral principles by justifying unspeakable cruelty on an innocent man and his family by basically saying “Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it? I’m God. I hold all the cards. I do what I want and no one can stop me. You can’t even guilt me. I’m the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, Morty! I can do no wrong!”

I am glad you do not credit the deity you revere with such disdainful behavior toward humanity. If you did, you might be primed to believe that voice in your head telling you to drown your children so they can go to Heaven really is God.

Actually, it doesn't undermine anything in the mythical realm of "Moraltown." Why? Because the very God, the very Creator, whom everyone so often gripes about in His ongoing "ABSENTEEISM" ........................................... actually does show up! Of course, everyone then proceeds to ignore the rest of the story of Job, its outcome, as well as the metaphysical implications of the story.

The question now is: Why does everyone do this? The answer: because life is so very often painful for each and every one of us and we're each, like Sartre, left staring up through the thick darkness at the stars, wondering if there is a god and feeling that there isn't. But in the book of Job, lo and behold, we're presented with a story where the Dude actually shows up, even if when He does so, it's in less than consolatory terms.
 
Upvote 0

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,437
2,685
United States
✟204,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Obviously the moral of the story has no impact on our society. I believe God would never do such a thing and most try to soften the story's moral, but it is what it is. I still find the idea that a man can sue God interesting though.
God places himself above the law. He has to, otherwise he would have to answer for his many, many murders. I believe a truly virtuous god wouldn’t have to do that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,437
2,685
United States
✟204,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I actually really like the Book of Job. Obviously it's just a story, but I think it's a pretty sophisticated take on the Problem of Evil. We have a religion that equates righteousness with obtaining God's favor, so we really do need to deal with the fact that bad things happen to good people. Job may be fictional, but there are plenty of real life counterparts who do everything right and have their lives destroyed anyway. We know this, and so did the ancient Israelites. It needs to be addressed.

I'm not sure it's a particularly good answer to the Problem of Evil, at least compared to more modern theology, but I don't think it's so terrible that we need to rage against it.
The more I think about the book of Job, the more I sour to it. I don’t think its answer to the problem of evil is anything to rage about either, but its response to the moral version of the Euthyphro dilemma seems to be that morality is defined according to God’s purposes, no matter how petty they may be. This gives us no good reason to value God’s morality apart from what he might do to us if we don’t - and it even if we do, there’s no promise he won’t spare us. At this point, it’s simpler to say that God doesn’t exist at all and things just happen to people. Job’s story doesn’t offer a better answer and it primes believers to accept morally evil commands if they’re convinced those commands come from God, ala Abraham and Isaac.



Actually, it doesn't undermine anything in the mythical realm of "Moraltown." Why? Because the very God, the very Creator, whom everyone so often gripes about in His ongoing "ABSENTEEISM" ........................................... actually does show up! Of course, everyone then proceeds to ignore the rest of the story of Job, its outcome, as well as the metaphysical implications of the story.

The question now is: Why does everyone do this? The answer: because life is so very often painful for each and every one of us and we're each, like Sartre, left staring up through the thick darkness at the stars, wondering if there is a god and feeling that there isn't. But in the book of Job, lo and behold, we're presented with a story where the Dude actually shows up, even if when He does so, it's in less than consolatory terms.
Showing up only to reveal he’s been in league with the Devil trying to break you tends not to elicit the hero’s welcome in people. I can’t imagine why...
The problem of evil is often neutralized by appealing to the possibility that God is preventing an even greater evil by allowing what he allows, but in this story we’re given God’s full reasoning. He wants to win a bet with Satan. It’s completely unnecessary, and this reasoning really does undermine the common response to the PoE.
 
Upvote 0