The trials of Job

[Par5]

There is a very interesting discussion in the Christian Scriptures thread about the book of Job. The general consensus among the Christian posters is that it is one of their favourite books giving a clear indication that god is always in control. They see the story as being wonderous and good and I am sure it will come as no surprise to anyone if I say that I see it as anything but good.
Just about everyone knows the story of Job and his suffering, but for those who have been living on the moon, it goes something like this. Job was considered a good and righteous man, totally loyal and true to his god. God and satan meet, and in order to show that Job was totally loyal god said that satan could do what he liked to Job, except kill him and that Job would still remain faithful to him. I have often wondered who was privy to this conversation between these two supernatural beings, but that's another story. Satan then embarks on a spree of death and destruction, killing off Job's family and destroying his livelihood. At the end of it all Job still remains faithful and true as predicted by god. God gave no reason to Job why he was subjected to such suffering.
I see the wager as an exercise in extreme cruelty by two equally egotistical beings. The devil is always made out to be devious and intelligent, but in this story he is definitely not the sharpest tool in the box. He and god were once the best of buddies and satan would have known that god was omniscient. Only an idiot would bet against a being it knew to be omniscient.
As for poor old Job, knowing that the god he devoted his life to was responsible for allowing his terrible suffering yet was still unwavering in his loyalty makes him a very foolish man in my eyes. Yes, yes, I know what the bible says about calling someone a fool, but as far as Job is concerned I think foolish is a rather mild criticism.
On a happier note, a very happy new year to all.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Job, by his faith, won, enduring to the end, will receive eternal life, instead of torments.

Jesus won.

The devil lost.

Life on earth is but a wisp. A mere breath. A short time.

Eternal life is forever.

Any and all suffering here is nothing compared to the extraordinary extravagant free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus....

 

[Neogaia777]

It is not good for a man to righteous in his own eyes and sight Job, regardless of whether it is warranted or not... (lessons from Job)...

God Bless!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

What I like about this book is that it directly counters 'retribution theology' where people believe that bad things happen to bad people and good things happen to good people. Even today, people wrongfully assume that bad things are happening to them because God is punishing them for something they did wrong. This is what Job's friends were suggesting. However, chapter 1 shows this not to be true.

There are some debatable issues that surround the book of Job. First, its genre. Is it historical narrative or a poetic story involving fictional characters to tell a biblical truth? Second, its dating. It is traditionally accepted that the book is the oldest book in the Bible because Job was the priest of the family who gave offerings and performed sacrifice on behalf of the family (Job 1:4-5). However, there are some questions that must be addressed. If it is historical, who witnessed the events unfolding in heaven between the satan and God to have documented it? Why was the conversations between Job and his friends written in poetry? Nobody has conversations in poem. Is the term "satan" actually a title, as in the title of Lucifer? Or is it a description of function or role, as in that the satan was merely an angel who acted as an opponent but not THE opponent (Lucifer)? In regards to its date. Scholars cannot ignore the fact that the Book of Job is nearly identical in form, style, and theme of the Babylonian Theodicy, a poetic story written during a post exilic time. It seems more probable that the book of Job was written post-exilic with a 'contextual chronology' of a much earlier time. Like "Lord of the Rings" is a fairly recent story based on much earlier events or "Star Wars" having a contextual chronology of "A long time ago in a galaxy far away".

I tend to lean towards Job being a post-exilic Babylonian style poetry based on fictional characters in an early chronological setting. Otherwise, we would have to wrestle with a lot of question that cannot be answered.

 

[bling]

I asked the following simple questions but no one addressed them so the thread has not moved on and is still way off track:

1. Was Job spiritually more mature at the end of Job than at the beginning?

2. What problem did Job finally show that needed correction?

3. Would Job have easily acknowledged this problem prior to the disaster, because he would have realized he had a problem?

4. Would God have known of Job’s problem prior to satan’s visit?

5. Did satan manipulate God to get at Job or did God manipulate satan to get satan to do stuff God could not do (hurt innocent people) and bring Job to the point of accepting God’s understanding of his problem?

6. Does this give us an example of the degree to which God will go in order to help us to grow spiritually?

7. Is this an example of the role satan plays indirectly helping good people become even better?

8. It is “unfortunate” that some of Jobs children went to be with God in heaven and leave Job and his wife, but how big of a price will God pay to help us?


Look at this at least:


Job, He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

1. This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.
2. First!! Remember our objective: All humans are to develop and grow in Godly type love (agape) of God and other humans.
3. God’s objective is the most selfless, in that He has and will do everything to help human individually develop and grow Godly type love (help us fulfill our objective).
4. In the story of Job, we can see God is in charge, satan can only do what God allows Satan to do.
5. God has power over Satan and could destroy Satan at any time, so Satan has a purpose that forces God to allow Satan to stick around.
6. From the story we see Satan doing the bad stuff to good people and God allowing Satan to do this bad stuff.
7. Bad stuff is never bad for the individual that loves God: Rm8: 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. What good can Job get out of this discipline, trial, learning experience?
8. Job would have been praying for himself like he prayed for his kids: Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. Job’s pray would easily been to ask to love more and grow spiritually.
9. We can not stop, we have to be growing or we will start withering spiritually. Where Job is in his spiritual growth at the beginning seem to be far down the path so further growing could be a challenge and require a new level.
10. Job is fantastic at the beginning of the story, but he is not perfect, he can still do a lot of growing.
11. I think we can agree that Job is personally a better person (spiritually stronger) at the end of the story then at the beginning, so what was Job’s weakness in the beginning that God would know and realize? If we could figure this out we could figure what was needed to help Job. Would a burning bush experience help Job?
12. This is another situation in which God works with an individual personally. God is working with each of us very similarly.
13. We do not know how God worked individually with each of Job’s kids, but He was and they joined God in heaven and would be there when Job got there.
14. It has been my experience people (including myself) really hate to humble ourselves. It is like being baptized, people use every excuse for not being baptized that comes down to being a sign of humility they will not do.

At the end we see a changed Job:


1 Then Job replied to the LORD :

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'

5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin?

Here seems to be the problem: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.



Job was humbled in the end, but why go through all this would there not be an easier way? If God had spoken directly to Job prior to all this would Job not have listened? I would say, “NO”. Job would have said, I know Lord (when he really didn’t) Job would not have said what he did say in the end and that is what he needed to say. How do you get Job to say what he did without going through what he experienced. If you had asked Job in the beginning, “do you know the Lord”, he would have said, “yes” for he knew the Lord better then anyone else at the time. God does not want you to just be the best, but the best you can be and that is what Job wanted.

Just some thoughts, I really love Job and thank God for this story.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There is a very interesting discussion in the Christian Scriptures thread about the book of Job. The general consensus among the Christian posters is that it is one of their favourite books giving a clear indication that god is always in control. They see the story as being wonderous and good and I am sure it will come as no surprise to anyone if I say that I see it as anything but good.
Just about everyone knows the story of Job and his suffering, but for those who have been living on the moon, it goes something like this. Job was considered a good and righteous man, totally loyal and true to his god. God and satan meet, and in order to show that Job was totally loyal god said that satan could do what he liked to Job, except kill him and that Job would still remain faithful to him. I have often wondered who was privy to this conversation between these two supernatural beings, but that's another story. Satan then embarks on a spree of death and destruction, killing off Job's family and destroying his livelihood. At the end of it all Job still remains faithful and true as predicted by god. God gave no reason to Job why he was subjected to such suffering.
I see the wager as an exercise in extreme cruelty by two equally egotistical beings. The devil is always made out to be devious and intelligent, but in this story he is definitely not the sharpest tool in the box. He and god were once the best of buddies and satan would have known that god was omniscient. Only an idiot would bet against a being it knew to be omniscient.
As for poor old Job, knowing that the god he devoted his life to was responsible for allowing his terrible suffering yet was still unwavering in his loyalty makes him a very foolish man in my eyes. Yes, yes, I know what the bible says about calling someone a fool, but as far as Job is concerned I think foolish is a rather mild criticism.
On a happier note, a very happy new year to all.

Job is not just a lesson that God can (or even that he has the right to) do whatever he wants with his creatures, or any of a score of other things to learn. Maybe the main thing shown is that God does whatever he does for whatever reasons he has, and with that, that we should have faith that he is doing just that, regardless of how it affects our lives. He is admirable and praiseworthy for that very reason. "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." Job 13

Job tried, throughout the book, to explain to his friends that God was not doing this because of Job's sin. (Reminds me of modern Evangelists etc claiming this or that catastrophe was God's judgement on that area or America in general.) In the end, God tells them all that Job was the one who had said what was true.

I have wondered why God would bother to prove anything to Satan, once Satan had set himself against God. But he didn't only prove it to Satan, but apparently to the "sons of God" who appear in the beginning of the book. Furthermore, WE have the record, and are discussing it. One of the happiest things I find in the book is that Job's deepest wishes are granted:

"23 Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll, lead,
or engraved in rock forever!"

And the following heart rending, from Job 19:

"25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!"

That last is also useful for demonstrating that Christianity was around long before Christ was born; the idea that Christianity is a mere copy of other myths and religions is presumptive.

 

[Par5]

Reading through the posts it appears that all the Christian posters are waxing lyrical about the book of Job, that a man who had his wife and family murdered, his property and livelihood destroyed, somehow emerged all the better for it and that what his god allowed to happen to him was actually a good thing.
I just can't get my head around that kind of reasoning. Christians have demonstrated here on CF time and time again that no matter what act of extreme cruelty carried out or ordered by the biblical god, that somehow those acts are righteous and good.
It doesn't matter if as has been suggested that the story of Job was a poetic fictional account or whether it is considered to be an actual event, it still depicts the biblical god, in my eyes, to be an egotistical monster who tortures one of his puny creations in order to prove a point to an adversary.
I don't believe any of it, but plenty of people do. I don't think I will ever understand how those who do believe it see it as something that is good, and that the god who they believe in, and the instigator of such acts, is considered a figure of goodness and righteousness. It is that kind of mindset that disturbs me, that Christians can read of terrible atrocities carried out or instigated by the god they believe in and somehow come up with the idea that such acts are actually right and proper.

 

[Lost4words]

I think its a fictional story. God is teaching us an important lesson. I truly think that many OT stories are like this.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Job is not just a lesson that God can (or even that he has the right to) do whatever he wants with his creatures, or any of a score of other things to learn. Maybe the main thing shown is that God does whatever he does for whatever reasons he has, and with that, that we should have faith that he is doing just that, regardless of how it affects our lives. He is admirable and praiseworthy for that very reason. "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him."

I think your statement is good. The only thing I would like to add is that the main theme of the book is not necessarily "why God does things". God never answer's Job's question as to the reason for his suffering. This piece of information is left out for a reason. Because that is not the point of the story.

The main theme of the story is the motive of Job's righteousness not the motive of God's actions. It is a lesson of "disinterested faith". Meaning, having a faith that remains regardless of promise of reward or threats of punishment. Are you able to continue in your faith even when you have no reason left other than simply because God is God and you are His creation?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Reading through the posts it appears that all the Christian posters are waxing lyrical about the book of Job, that a man who had his wife and family murdered, his property and livelihood destroyed, somehow emerged all the better for it and that what his god allowed to happen to him was actually a good thing.

Remember, the point of the Book is not the motive of God's actions or the morality behind them. Rather, it is the motive of Job's righteousness. It is a story of, "If God was the type of God that would "toy" with his creations, would you worship Him regardless for no other reason than because He is God? It appears your answer would be no. You would probably be like Job's wife in Job 2:9. The problem that many Christians have is mistakenly believing that the Book of Job is historical narrative and not poetic wisdom. As a result, they are the ones who must wrestle with redefining the benevolence of God. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Par5]

Remember, the point of the Book is not the motive of God's actions or the morality behind them. Rather, it is the motive of Job's righteousness. It is a story of, "If God was the type of God that would "toy" with his creations, would you worship Him regardless for no other reason than because He is God? It appears your answer would be no. You would probably be like Job's wife in Job 2:9. The problem that many Christians have is mistakenly believing that the Book of Job is historical narrative and not poetic wisdom. As a result, they are the ones who must wrestle with redefining the benevolence of God. But that's just my opinion.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any wisdom, poetic or otherwise, in the story, none at all. What wisdom do you take from the story?

 

[bling]

I'm sorry, but I don't see any wisdom, poetic or otherwise, in the story, none at all. What wisdom do you take from the story?

You have to really read and study the story.

If you asked Job prior to all this happening at the beginning: " would you ever feel the Creator of the Universe can make mistakes and be on par with man"? Job would have said "certainly not". yet after going through an extreme hardship Job is asking God to come down and debate him, since Job is now expressing what his inter heart is truly feeling: "God can make mistakes and He is wrong and I am right."

Job can at the end accept his own weak reality and God helpful instruction.

As far as the death of believing children, they get to go home and if they have been wicked children their wackiness has stopped.
As far as those that went to Job they all learned something.

 

[Par5]

You have to really read and study the story.

If you asked Job prior to all this happening at the beginning: " would you ever feel the Creator of the Universe can make mistakes and be on par with man"? Job would have said "certainly not". yet after going through an extreme hardship Job is asking God to come down and debate him, since Job is now expressing what his inter heart is truly feeling: "God can make mistakes and He is wrong and I am right."

Job can at the end accept his own weak reality and God helpful instruction.

As far as the death of believing children, they get to go home and if they have been wicked children their wackiness has stopped.
As far as those that went to Job they all learned something.

So god's "helpful instruction" to Job was to kill his wife and family, destroy his property and livelihood thus making Job a better person. It was all for his own good. Really? Just at the moment, I can't think of anyone who would feel a better person after being put through such a horrific ordeal, and I would have thought that having a debate with the perpetrator of that barbarity would have been the last thing on the victim's mind. Perhaps it was Job's mind that was messed up, because anyone who after such an experience can say, "Yes, you were right I was wrong, thanks for putting me straight" has got to be more than a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
I don't understand the way Christians treat the murder of children so lightly. "Oh, don't worry, they are going to heaven".
I agree with you that all those who went to Job learned something, that something being that this god was only doing what it always did in the past, and would continue to do so in the future, namely kill people or order people to be killed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So god's "helpful instruction" to Job was to kill his wife and family, destroy his property and livelihood thus making Job a better person.

No.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't understand the way Christians treat the murder of children so lightly.

Too many false ideas to understand .....

Have to rely on Yahweh to be given understanding of TORAH.
Do not rely on people, ever.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm sorry, but I don't see any wisdom, poetic or otherwise, in the story, none at all. What wisdom do you take from the story?

Most people never get wisdom, from the story nor otherwise, ever.
So, just in passing, this is understandable, but a quick question if I may.

Are you seeking wisdom ? Seeking truth ?

 

[Par5]

I would like to correct something I said in earlier posts. I said that Job's wife was killed along with his other family members. She, of course, was not one of the victims. My mistake.

 

[Par5]

Most people never get wisdom, from the story nor otherwise, ever.
So, just in passing, this is understandable, but a quick question if I may.

Are you seeking wisdom ? Seeking truth ?

I am certainly not looking for wisdom and truth from what I read in the bible. When I read bible stories I don't necessarily believe what I am reading to have any basis in fact, but I do know that many people do accept what they read as being true.
Perhaps what I am seeking is to try and understand why people devote their lives to a being that is depicted as one that will kill and destroy for no reason other than it is displeased with its creation. If, as Christians believe, that god is the creator, then the blame for any fault in his creation lies at his door.
If I was a housebuilder and I built a house that was not structurally sound and it collapsed, I could hardly blame the house for falling down. The blame would be all mine.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I am certainly not looking for wisdom and truth from what I read in the bible.

Instead, seek the Creator Himself for Wisdom and Truth.

If I was a housebuilder and I built a house that was not structurally sound and it collapsed, I could hardly blame the house for falling down. The blame would be all mine.

Yes, this is true.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I'm sorry, but I don't see any wisdom, poetic or otherwise, in the story, none at all. What wisdom do you take from the story?

Well, color me not surprised with your view. The basic wisdom we learn is that bad things happen. Just because you are having a bad day, it doesn't mean that you are being punished for something wrong or vice versa. The poetry is literally lost in translation, you will not be able to see the poetic form unless you look at the original Hebrew and see how the writings are structured. The first letter of each sentence follows the previous sentence in alphabetical order.