The Transgender Debate

Postvieww · Apr 16, 2023

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Is the above passage true or will some try to “intellectually” cut it out of scripture?

Postvieww · Apr 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
A little intellectual humility would help Christians credibility a great deal. Less preaching, more learning

Do you mean less preaching from God’s words and more learning from Godless scholars?

Richard.20.12 · Apr 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
This is simply untrue. Homosexual orientation isn't caused by ones upbringing.

Well in almost half a century of my own life experience talking to gay people of both sexes I would heartily disagree. My evidence points most definitely to a very strong link to the points I mentioned. You can believe the gay agenda if you want and their attempts to brainwash the public. I'll stick to the people I've personally talked with. The problem most straight people have is they don't don't talk long enough to get the trust of the gay person they're talking with so they don't open up. People tend to tell me personal things very early on in a conversation with me. Not sure why. Maybe I felt very non-threatening to them. But I would say 95% at least of them had abuse in their past. And keep in mind abuse often brings shame to the victim (though of course it shouldn't) so women are far more likely to mention sexual abuse from a man than a man would mention sexual abuse from a man because they know instinctively its wrong. So they cover it up. Also the don't want to admit there's a link because then they couldn't fall back on the lame excuse of "I was born that way".

So when the Bible describes the stoning of gay people in the Old Testament how do you deal with that? Do you ignore it? Block it out? Do you think that God would go from stoning someone to being OK with it later? Does that make any sense?

Richard.20.12 · Apr 16, 2023

Postvieww said:
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Is the above passage true or will some try to “intellectually” cut it out of scripture?

I'd say "effeminate" is VERY specific. And that word was used for a reason.

I was reading a discussion in a secular forum about why gay men often "talk like that". You know....the lisp, the accentuation of certain words, it almost sounds scripted its so similar. Many of the posters (who were often gay) think gay men do it to broadcast their sexuality to others to draw others to them. They don't seem to realize how repugnant it sounds to those of a normal, balanced sexuality. And this is why some straight guys rage at them. Of course violence doesn't help the situation and just solidifies their view that straight people are abusers because that was what likely started their foray into gay life in the beginning. Its one vicious circle that few gay people have the courage to address.

Richard.20.12 · Apr 16, 2023

Postvieww said:
You must be confused. I in no way support evolution. Go back and read “tiimf” post #29 I agree with that post. Firedragon76 commented on that post in post # 30 taking a swipe at those who believe in creationism like “ intellectuals”have this all figured out . I was commenting on post # 30 which I disagree with. I believe the Genesis account as written. Evolution is junk science just like many claims on climate change and other claims on things such as alcoholism, homosexuality, transgenderism . Those that put what they believe to be science above scripture are not as intellectually developed as they think.

Sorry - I replied to you by accident. I've deleted that comment. We're definitely on the same page here.

Richard.20.12 · Apr 16, 2023

To FireDragon76. I replied to another poster by mistake. Here's how it should have read replying to your post below.

> Quite frankly, what you are promoting as truth, "Creationism", is disgracefully anti-intellectual. Somebody arguing for Creationism has no business lecturing the rest of us on objective truth.

Are you seriously suggesting that evolution is true? That God created something then decided to let it hugely transform over billions of years because He lacked the skills to do it the way it was supposed to be done from the start? That God couldn't just do what He wanted right away? Does that make the slightest bit of sense to you? Its God we're talking about. He can get the job done right the first time. He doesn't need multiple tries. We do. He doesn't.

ViaCrucis · Apr 16, 2023

Fear mongering has never been a good look for followers of Jesus, who are taught that God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of strength, love, and sobriety of mind (2 Timothy 1:7)

A moral panic is the opposite of these things.

Trans people aren't some weird "other", but consist of real human persons. And our job, as followers of Jesus, is to engage real persons with compassion, understanding, and love. That's what "love your neighbor" entails.

-CryptoLutheran

Richard.20.12 · Apr 16, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
Fear mongering has never been a good look for followers of Jesus, who are taught that God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of strength, love, and sobriety of mind (2 Timothy 1:7)

A moral panic is the opposite of these things.

Trans people aren't some weird "other", but consist of real human persons. And our job, as followers of Jesus, is to engage real persons with compassion, understanding, and love. That's what "love your neighbor" entails.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes of course.

Frank Sophia · Apr 16, 2023

There is no debate, at most you can say they are not complying with your church and no one should be committed to the procedure prior to 18 but beyond that it's a secular matter...

The same is true of abortion, if you don't think it's ok then don't get one but beyond that it's a secular matter...

The same is there in drag shows and homosexuals, if you're against it stay away otherwise it's a secular matter...

If any of these have a sincere heart God will come to them, so our positions don't matter.

Our work is to expand the inclusiveness of our love, but it's not a mandate in any of these situations... they just want to be accepted as part of society as they are.

Take a look at Galatians 4:19-31 and we learn that our Kingdom is not of this world, that worldly affiliations enslave us.

That isn't contrary to Revelation 22:1-5 which is to come into the world but this is towards an absolute democracy such that all reign together, each having the light of God upon them.

1 John 4:7-21 tells us we can't love God if we don't love each other.

Leaf473 · Apr 16, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
Fear mongering has never been a good look for followers of Jesus, who are taught that God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of strength, love, and sobriety of mind (2 Timothy 1:7)

A moral panic is the opposite of these things.

Trans people aren't some weird "other", but consist of real human persons. And our job, as followers of Jesus, is to engage real persons with compassion, understanding, and love. That's what "love your neighbor" entails.

-CryptoLutheran

True There's a young man who works at our local library who I think perceives himself as trans. My prayer is that he doesn't try to alter his body medically

He also has a significant lisp and speech impediment, another reason I extend sympathy to him.

FireDragon76 · Apr 16, 2023

Richard.20.12 said:
Well in almost half a century of my own life experience talking to gay people of both sexes I would heartily disagree. My evidence points most definitely to a very strong link to the points I mentioned. You can believe the gay agenda if you want and their attempts to brainwash the public. I'll stick to the people I've personally talked with. The problem most straight people have is they don't don't talk long enough to get the trust of the gay person they're talking with so they don't open up. People tend to tell me personal things very early on in a conversation with me. Not sure why. Maybe I felt very non-threatening to them. But I would say 95% at least of them had abuse in their past. And keep in mind abuse often brings shame to the victim (though of course it shouldn't) so women are far more likely to mention sexual abuse from a man than a man would mention sexual abuse from a man because they know instinctively its wrong. So they cover it up. Also the don't want to admit there's a link because then they couldn't fall back on the lame excuse of "I was born that way".

So when the Bible describes the stoning of gay people in the Old Testament how do you deal with that? Do you ignore it? Block it out? Do you think that God would go from stoning someone to being OK with it later? Does that make any sense?

I don't think God demands we stone anybody. God is love.

I mean, really... you think stoning people is even remotely appropriate?

Richard.20.12 · Apr 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I don't think God demands we stone anybody. God is love.

I mean, really... you think stoning people is even remotely appropriate?

It would be nice if you answered the questions addressed. Do you ignore the Old Testament? Because it very clearly shows how strongly God felt about this situation. Do you understand that it was bad enough that these people needed to be wiped off the Earth so they didn't influence others? Just like witchcraft, sorcery and other Satanic influences and practices? That really is the issue really. The influence on the youth and how it can shape future generations. Now nobody is advocating violence in any way against gay people. As I reiterated before, that just sends them deeper into their own twisted mindset. Plus it sets a rather poor example of God's love for them! Please address the points I raised. What is your opinion? No more vague generalities please.

Richard.20.12 · Apr 16, 2023

Leaf473 said:
True There's a young man who works at our local library who I think perceives himself as trans. My prayer is that he doesn't try to alter his body medically

He also has a significant lisp and speech impediment, another reason I extend sympathy to him.

The problem is the media gives them confidence that a surgical procedure will empower them somehow (Effeminate power?) and that if only they can get it somehow their problems will be largely over. But as Ben Shapiro wisely pointed out, suicide rates are just as bad with gay people with and without surgery. It simply doesn't help them psychologically. And people's reaction to them is far more horrific after surgery than before as a man with a bit of a lisp. We see that everywhere and can usually just tune that out. Its much harder to tune out some creature that looks mentally deranged, which they all do. That is a real challenge for almost everyone out there.

FireDragon76 · Apr 17, 2023

Richard.20.12 said:
It would be nice if you answered the questions addressed. Do you ignore the Old Testament?

I understand the Old Testament through an historical-critical lens. I don't see it as eternal truths about God for all peoples for all time. It reflects a particular time and culture, and their experiences of God.

FireDragon76 · Apr 17, 2023

Postvieww said:
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Is the above passage true or will some try to “intellectually” cut it out of scripture?

If you interpret that using the implied hermeneutic, then no women can be saved.

Postvieww · Apr 17, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
Fear mongering has never been a good look for followers of Jesus, who are taught that God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of strength, love, and sobriety of mind (2 Timothy 1:7)

A moral panic is the opposite of these things.

Trans people aren't some weird "other", but consist of real human persons. And our job, as followers of Jesus, is to engage real persons with compassion, understanding, and love. That's what "love your neighbor" entails.

-CryptoLutheran

Of course we are to love and be compassionate. Christ died for all mankind. Being compassionate and loving is not getting into agreement with what God has said is wrong. Being compassionate and loving involves truth telling. Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery “ go and sin no more “. He was compassionate and loving but called the sin for what it was. You are right trans people are not some weird “other” . They are human beings who need Christ like every other human being. Being compassionate is not getting into agreement that this is normal God sanctioned behavior.

Postvieww · Apr 17, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
If you interpret that using the implied hermeneutic, then no women can be saved.

Maybe you should use a different hermeneutic. The passage is very clear.

Postvieww · Apr 17, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I understand the Old Testament through an historical-critical lens. I don't see it as eternal truths about God for all peoples for all time. It reflects a particular time and culture, and their experiences of God.

God dealt with sin differently in the OT. But what constitutes sin then is still sin today. Jesus will take our sin and cast into the sea of forgetfulness if we just give it over to Him. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for the reasons He did then change His mind and say ok have your fun it’s all ok now. Jesus is the answer but Christian’s just treating this problem as just an alternate life style is not the answer.

FireDragon76 · Apr 17, 2023

Postvieww said:
God dealt with sin differently in the OT. But what constitutes sin then is still sin today. Jesus will take our sin and cast into the sea of forgetfulness if we just give it over to Him. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for the reasons He did then change His mind and say ok have your fun it’s all ok now. Jesus is the answer but Christian’s just treating this problem as just an alternate life style is not the answer.

The story of Soddom and Gomorrah isn't about the morality of homosexuality per se.

People need to stop reading the Bible as a weapon to use against marginalized people. Jesus himself didn't use that hermeneutic; he openly criticized that kind of religion.

FireDragon76 · Apr 17, 2023

Postvieww said:
Of course we are to love and be compassionate. Christ died for all mankind. Being compassionate and loving is not getting into agreement with what God has said is wrong.

Who said this is about everybody agreeing? I certainly don't take that approach to religion.

This is about not embracing a death-dealing biblical hermeneutic, with our kids as human sacrifices.

Postvieww said:
Being compassionate and loving involves truth telling.

Human beings are not infallible interpreters of the Bible. Time and again, the Bible is full of people getting religion wrong, and God doing something new. What makes you think conservative Evangelicals are so special?

Postvieww said:
You are right trans people are not some weird “other” . They are human beings who need Christ like every other human being. Being compassionate is not getting into agreement that this is normal God sanctioned behavior.

And programmatic methodism isn't going to bring salvation, either.

Whatever happened to letting the Holy Spirit work on people? Why does it have to be coercing and manipulating gay people into a particular model of life that obviously doesn't suit them?

The Transgender Debate

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