The Torah is still valid..

[DeaconDean]

nm

 

[justbyfaith]

NO ONE could or had to ever keep the entirety of the Law...

Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, and Matthew 5:48 say otherwise.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, and Matthew 5:48 say otherwise.

Actually no it doesn't. YOU think it does because you do not understand it

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually no it doesn't. YOU think it does because you do not understand it

I know that I do understand it. But since you seem to think that I don't and you do, why don't you lay on us an exposition of what those verses really mean. Be sure to quote them first (preferably out of the kjv, which I hold to be both inspired and inerrant and also superior to other versions).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I know that I do understand it. But since you seem to think that I don't and you do, why don't you lay on us an exposition of what those verses really mean. Be sure to quote them first (preferably out of the kjv, which I hold to be both inspired and inerrant and also superior to other versions).

Well, it is obvious you don't because of what you implied those verses meant. As I said before, NO ONE could or had to follow the WHOLE Law. Read the Torah and you will see...

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, it is obvious you don't because of what you implied those verses meant. As I said before, NO ONE could or had to follow the WHOLE Law. Read the Torah and you will see...

Expound what the verses really mean then; for all of us to see. I know that they say what I have said they say, unless you can prove otherwise by expounding them correctly to say something different. Again, the verses are Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, and Matthew 5:48.

 

[justbyfaith]

Read the Torah and you will see...

Read 2 Corinthians 3:7-16 and you might see (Acts of the Apostles 28:25-29).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Expound what the verses really mean then; for all of us to see. I know that they say what I have said they say, unless you can prove otherwise by expounding them correctly to say something different. Again, the verses are Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, and Matthew 5:48.

First you need to define what the law is and to whom it applies. Once you understand that, you will understand these verses

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Read 2 Corinthians 3:7-16 and you might see (Acts of the Apostles 28:25-29).

So you are defining the law as only the 10 commandments correct?

 

[justbyfaith]

First you need to define what the law is and to whom it applies. Once you understand that, you will understand these verses

Not gonna do it, huh? That says something about your willingness to even look at these scriptures with direct honesty.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The essence of the law is still valid, but not by adhering to the set of rules as spelled out in the 613 laws. One could follow each and every law to the letter and still not be saved and this is the message Jesus brought to us. Just as the Pharisee who invited Jesus to dinner performed the ceremonial washing of the cup, Jesus pointed out that the outside is clean, but the inside is still dirty. The point: An outward act doesn't make us holy. It doesn't save us. Our only salvation is in loving God with all our heart, all our soul and all our might and loving our neighbor the same. If we do that, all other things will fall into place.

Regarding the Sabbath, it is important to our well being, first of all. Jesus said, the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. In other words, we have the sabbath to give us rest and to allow us to reconnect with God and re-energize. Yes it is still valid, but again, if we love God with all we are, we'll WANT to spend some time with him. But what if we obey the sabbath by not doing any work, but we also ignore God. We don't pray, we don't offer thanksgiving, we just take the day off? Maybe we go to Church, but then the minute we leave, we put God on the back burner and go to the park or go to friends and enjoy their company without a thought of God? Is that obeying the sabbath?

Is the sabbath actually Saturday or does it matter as long as 1 day out of every 6 you worship God and rest from your normal work? It is so easy to get caught up in obeying the rules that we miss the point. It is similar with the food laws. In times of sacrifice, many pagans/gentiles sacrificed animals to gods an din most cases it was swine which is one of the reasons God made it a detestable animal. But Paul was clear, if you can eat it without associating it to another god, then it's ok, but don't let someone who can't make that discernment partake or see you eating it either.

So yea, I agree that the spirit of the Torah is still very much a part of our worship, but not in it's specific set of rules, but rather what's in our hearts.

From what I’ve seen it appears we are not under the letter of the law but instead the purpose of the law. The sabbath was put in place for us to honor God. Personally I don’t think which day we choose is important according to Romans 14. I think what is important is that we do set aside a day to worship and honor God. I see many examples like this where the letter of the law is not kept but the purpose of the law is. Circumcision, the woman who committed adultery, the apostles picking wheat on the sabbath, Jesus doing good works on the sabbath, Rehab was counted as being righteous for lying to save the Israel spies, the washing of hands ritual, and probably a few others that have slipped my mind.

 

[justbyfaith]

Our only salvation is found in forgiveness of sins through the blood of Jesus.

There is no law that has the ability to impart life (Galatians 3:21); not even the commandment to love the Lord our God with all the heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love thy neighbor as thyself.

Now the love of God will be shed abroad in your heart through the Holy Ghost if you believe in Christ and are forgiven by Him (Romans 5:5, Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19). However our salvation does not lie in our own personal holiness (or even the love that Jesus imparts into us) but in the forgiveness that Christ offers.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

the apostles picking wheat on the sabbath, Jesus doing good works on the sabbath,

Yet neither one was against the Law

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Not gonna do it, huh? That says something about your willingness to even look at these scriptures with direct honesty.

I can't because YOU will not define YOUR definition of the Law nor your understanding of it.

 

[justbyfaith]

I can't because YOU will not define YOUR definition of the Law nor your understanding of it.

Yes you can. Simply quote the scriptures in question and give us your understanding of them after the quoting of each verse. You do not need to know what my understanding is in order to provide your own.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes you can. Simply quote the scriptures in question and give us your understanding of them after the quoting of each verse. You do not need to know what my understanding is in order to provide your own.

Galatians is regarding the blessings and cursings in the law which has nothing to do with your argument and neither does Matthew. James just means what it says.

 

[Shempster]

Look at what Jesus said:

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So if this is true, then each commandment (the 10 and Torah) should correlate in some way.
Each commandment should have as its core meaning loving God, others and/or yourself.

This is how Jesus fulfills the Law because his NEW LAW really is just an explanation of the old.
But people's hearts were evil and they found many ways to "obey" Torah and yet not LOVE.
In Jesus, God writes the law on our hearts and if we truly love God, others and ourselves, we can obey the law.
Think about this...Jesus will one day reject many who identify with him. He says that he never knew them and claims they lived LAWLESS lives.

Let's say you are looking on a dating site and a woman you really like says she loves the beach, reading books and snuggling by the fire. So you meet her and try as hard as you can to love the beach, reading books and snuggling by the fire, even though you really don't.
Eventually she will see signs that you really don't like that stuff and realize your motives were not pure.
It's the same thing with the OT Law. The Pharisees claimed to obey it to the smallest detail, yet Jesus claimed they were lax in it because they stole from the weak and the poor, proving that they never even understood the meaning of the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

Galatians 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: For it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.

My exposition: As many as are the works of the law = all those who have not put their trust in Christ and received His forgiveness through the blood of His Cross. All such people are only seeking to enter in through the only other way possible: through their own righteousness/works/law-keeping.

All these are under the curse, and are cursed because they do not keep every letter, they do not continue in every thing that is written in the book of the law to do every thing that is written in the book of the law; and the scripture proclaims a curse on every one who does not continue in every letter of the law, keeping it perfectly from the moment they are conceived to the day they die and beyond into eternity.

If anyone puts their trust in Christ, this is not true of them, for they are not of the works of the law. Therefore they are forgiven of their imperfections and failure to keep the law perfectly all their lives.

James 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

My exposition: If I were to do an exemplary job of keeping the law perfectly all of my life, but in the last moment of my life I forgot to wear titzit on my hospital gown, I am guilty of breaking the whole law of God.

Matthew 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

My exposition: God requires perfection if you are going to enter in on the basis of your own righteousness/works/law-keeping.
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One last thing: I realize that this may seem like foolishness to someone. I would quote the scriptures that address this:

1 Corinthians 1:18, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21, For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus perfectly kept TORAH.

 

[justbyfaith]

According to the order of Melchizedek, not Levi (Hebrews 7:12 and context); for John testifies under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that Jesus broke the sabbath in John 5:18. And He Himself was naked on the Cross (or practically naked).