The Torah is still valid..

[claninja]

I already have

No, you haven't. Mark 2 is in regards to the law of Moses. There is no command in Genesis 2 for people to keep the Sabbath.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

For murder, he was placed under a curse, crops no longer yielded to him, and he was to be a wanderer.
Genesis 4:11-12 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

As we can see, there is a clear punishment for murder. God made it known that murder was wrong. There are multiple sins (murder, adultery, lying, stealing, covet, not honoring mother and father, idol worship, profaning God's name) that are punished by God prior to Moses and the Israelites. What is the punishment for not obeying the Sabbath prior to Moses and the Israelites?



Abraham slept with the daughter of his father prior to the giving of the law, what was his punishment for that sin?
Genesis 20:12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife
Deuteronomy 27:22 “Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.”

That was my point. The Laws were in effects BEFORE Sinai.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, you haven't. Mark 2 is in regards to the law of Moses. There is no command in Genesis 2 for people to keep the Sabbath.

That is because you have no understanding regarding what He said...you can believe what you want too, I am not arguing regarding this any longer.

 

[claninja]

That is because you have no understanding regarding what He said...

This is a subjective argument. The same could be said you.

The Laws were in effects BEFORE Sinai.

And yet there is no command to remember the sabbath day and keep it holy nor punishment for not keeping it prior to moses and the Israelites.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And yet there is no command to remember the sabbath day and keep it holy nor punishment for not keeping it prior to moses and the Israelites.

For the last time, the Sabbath was not invented at Sinai. "REMEMBER" means it was something that was in effect PRIOR to the statement. How can anyone argue that the Almighty created the Sabbath for Adam (man), hid it for centuries during the time of the patriarchs, and waited until 2,500 years after Creation week to reveal the Sabbath on Sinai? The Sabbath is alluded to just before the Exodus from Egypt even began and in the desert weeks BEFORE Sinai... Exodus 16

 

[claninja]

For the last time, the Sabbath was not invented at Sinai.

Which we agree.

REMEMBER" means it was something that was in effect PRIOR to the statement.

Which we also agree

How can anyone argue that the Almighty created the Sabbath for Adam (man)

I agree that Adam and Eve lived in Gods rest for a time before the fall. After the fall, Adam and eve were not commanded to remember the sabbath.

The sabbath is a covenantal agreement between God and the people of Israel. It was only a shadow that pointed to Christ, the true sabbath rest.

hid it for centuries during the time of the patriarchs, and waited until 2,500 years after Creation week to reveal the Sabbath on Sinai?

Which we agree

The Sabbath is alluded to just before the Exodus from Egypt even began and in the desert weeks BEFORE Sinai... Exodus 16

Prior to the giving of the law, the command to remember the sabbath is revealed only in Exodous 16, which was just a short time before the law was given. Notice there is no punishment for not keeping the sabbath prior to giving of the law.

Before exodus 16, the only other mention of the 7th day being holy is genesis 2. God rests on that day, but Adam is not commanded to keep the 7th day holy.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Which we agree.



Which we also agree



I agree that Adam and Eve lived in Gods rest for a time before the fall. After the fall, Adam and eve were not commanded to remember the sabbath.

The sabbath is a covenantal agreement between God and the people of Israel. It was only a shadow that pointed to Christ, the true sabbath rest.



Which we agree



Prior to the giving of the law, the command to remember the sabbath is revealed only in Exodous 16, which was just a short time before the law was given. Notice there is no punishment for not keeping the sabbath prior to giving of the law.

Before exodus 16, the only other mention of the 7th day being holy is genesis 2. God rests on that day, but Adam is not commanded to keep the 7th day holy.

Again, none of that refutes any point I have made. BTW, The Almighty does not need rest regarding Genesis, He is The Almighty, so what was the point of that verse then?????????

 

[claninja]

Again, none of that refutes any point I have made.

Exactly, I was pointing out how much we agree on.

BTW, The Almighty does not need rest regarding Genesis, He is The Almighty, so what was the point of that verse then?????????

What is the point of Genesis 2:2? the Hebrew verb shabath can mean to cease, finish, or abstain. God created all in 6 days, he saw that it was good, and then ceased from creating on the 7th. Obviously the almighty God doesn't get tired.

You still have not provided scripture that shows Adam remembered the Sabbath day and kept it holy.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

God created all in 6 days, he saw that it was good, and then ceased from creating on the 7th. Obviously the almighty God doesn't get tired.
You still have not provided scripture that shows Adam remembered the Sabbath day and kept it holy.

Again, since The Almighty does not tire, what was the point of establishing The Sabbath at that point? Who was He speaking to, Himself?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

GOOD !
Think about this a few decades....

Why did Yahweh create the world ?

For pots made of clay to question Him ? To disobey Him for thousands of years ?

To KILL HIS SON ?!

Again, since The Almighty does not tire, what was the point of establishing The Sabbath at that point? Who was He speaking to, Himself?

 

[claninja]

Again, since The Almighty does not tire, what was the point of establishing The Sabbath at that point? Who was He speaking to, Himself?

Did you even read what i posted? Again, obviously God does not tire. The Hebrew word for rest in genesis 2:2 is shabath. Shabath can mean cease, finish, abstain.

God finished his work in 6 days and ceased from creating on the 7th. He then blessed the 7th day and made it holy.

The purpose of the sabbath is to point to Christ, the true sabbath rest.

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Colossians 2:16-17&version=ESV
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Hebrews 4:9-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 4:9-10&version=ESV

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Did you even read what i posted? Again, obviously God does not tire. The Hebrew word for rest in genesis 2:2 is shabath. Shabath can mean cease, finish, abstain.

God finished his work in 6 days and ceased from creating on the 7th. He then blessed the 7th day and made it holy.

yes I read it. The same word used in Genesis is used in Exodus.

 

[claninja]

The same word used in Genesis is used in Exodus.

I agree

 

[JohnC2]

You guys seem to be running in circles around the tree and not getting anywhere....

Here's the key to understand.... Did the giving of The Law to Moses change the nature of creation? No. Creation was already created and it had already fallen....

As such - God's "Laws" governing creation were already put into place.... Laws like gravity... Laws like entropy/degradation.... Laws like genetics... Natural phenomenon like pestilence, parasites, virus, bacteria - infection, rot, etc.... "The law of nature" - everything kills something to eat...

It's just that before Moses received Torah - man had no specific supernatural guidance for dealing with it... Man had just sort of worked out some stuff through trial and error - and most of it didn't work particularly well (look at records of ancient Egyptian medical practices if you question that point)....

Through Torah - man now has *some* supernatural guidance for dealing with some specific aspects of fallen creation... And God illustrates specific blessings attached to Torah such as "I will not put the diseases of Egypt upon you..." .... "Your crops will yield fruitfully" .... "Your women will not suffer infertility"... Etc.

But it was by no means complete with Moses.... If it was - we would have no Shema - the command to HEAR God today and love God... And we would have no Jesus.... God has continued to give us guidance in dealing with fallen creation.....

 

[justbyfaith]

The sabbath in the NT boils down to a relationship with the Lord.

That was the purpose of resting on Saturday in the OT...to spend time set apart to the Lord.

If we perceive that every day is alike...to our own Master do we stand or fall....and God is able to make us stand.

If you believe that you should worship the Lord specifically on Saturday, more power to you...the Bible says let every man be fully convinced in his own mind.

Just don't judge anyone else for not keeping the sabbath...for we are commanded in the NT to not allow anyone to do that.

 

[justbyfaith]

So you should not even try? So when you were in school did you ever take a test? Why, if you cant get every question correct ALL THE TIME? I am sorry you have been so mis-informed. BTW, NO ONE can keep the whole Law...that was never the point.

The question is why you are trying to keep the whole law? Is it because you love the Lord or is it because you are seeking to be justified by it?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The question is why you are trying to keep the whole law? Is it because you love the Lord or is it because you are seeking to be justified by it?

NO ONE can keep the whole Law.

 

[justbyfaith]

NO ONE can keep the whole Law.

That wasn't the question.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That wasn't the question.

Well that is strange, because that IS what you asked:

"The question is why you are trying to keep the whole law? Is it because you love the Lord or is it because you are seeking to be justified by it?"

 

[justbyfaith]

Well that is strange, because that IS what you asked:

"The question is why you are trying to keep the whole law? Is it because you love the Lord or is it because you are seeking to be justified by it?"

Nope. Not quite. If I wanted the answer you gave, I would have asked, Is the law still valid?

Again, in context of my question: which one?